PseudoSABR

I was specifically talking about FA pitching. Again, that Worley and Diamond fell flat on their face, and Willingham's injury/ineffectiveness have more to do with our failure than offseason moves. Up until last month, the Twins did look improved, and in my opinion they are far more watchable than last year, even if it doesn't show up in the standings. In any case, there were no free agent moves that would have turned this club into a competing one, save spending 200-400 million on contracts (which isn't plausible in my mind). Yes, TR didn't do much to improve the big league club, but he certainly improved the young pitching depth in the offseason, and didn't straddle us with any stupid contracts.

Dude, you're totally dismissing that the Twins could have tied future and current funds into horrible signings. Of which there were many--many that we advocated them signing (not because of internet message group think, but because of earnest statistical analysis (which is, also, inevitably incomplete and flawed)). You're so angry about a zero, when you could have had a negative two (or whatever). I don't view the offseason so much as failure, as a wash. It's a wash. A big fat Meh. Evaluation must be weighed against what was really plausible--not against what was ideal or possibly lucky.

It sounded like Gardy really wanted him up here. I've liked how adamant Gardy has been about Arcia.

Damn, the Twins. Literally.

I don't want to take away from the issues you raise, because I believe they are important, but there's lots of issue at hand--please read what Questlove wrote in the article above and even listen Obama's speech. For a young Black man to walk around at night alone, this kind of case certainly makes them feel more unsafe. What issues are important has to do with who you are, and the social/cultural vantage from which you come. If one person wishes to discuss the racial injustice the incidences raise, it doesn't diminish in anyway the conversation you wish to have. I just want to add that, I don't really care to debate it all over again.

No worries. In a conversation like this, it's easy to talk passed one another. There's nothing that Grienke has done specifically, but certainly taking that position is way to drive up your price. I mean there's lots of reasons for professional athletes to disassemble about something like that. Maybe we can take Grienke at his word, but it's hard for me to imagine him going to Houston or Minnesota if they marginally outbid a competitive, big market franchise. If the Twins could have signed Grienke by substantially outbidding competitors, well, I'm not sure that's so wise--at least when we were so far from actually competing. I'd rather sign a Grienke (not that there is going to be one) next offseason or the following one, when the core begins to emerge. I know that's too long for some fans, but I'd rather concentrate our assets to optimize the fantastic minor league talent and depth.

Dude, I specifically mention critiquing TR for not signing "such-and-such pitchers" (i.e. the good ones) in what you quoted. (I didn't intentionally leave it out of the sentence before that, if that's what you thought). My point is that you can't have it both ways. And more than that, crediting and critiquing TR is spurious business, because in my opinion (and I think supported by the short and cheap contracts so many pitchers signed) is that beyond the first tier the FA pitching pool was a crap shoot. I'm implying no such thing. I don't know what Grienke thinks nor do you. All we have is something he said to the media. I tend to be pretty cynical about what any professional athlete says about contracts and where they want to play. And as RP, points out LA would certainly help with his branding and outside baseball income. I doubt he'd eliminate that from the equation, in spite of what he outwardly said.

Right, too many are assuming they have as much information as the FO does. I think many are relying too heavily on stastical analysis (because that's all they have to work with). I wonder how the various prognosticating metrics (Zips etc) did in predicting how all of these free agent pitchers would do. My guess is that they did no better than the ML GMs... It would be an interesting exercise.

Your framing the Corriea signing to make TR look as foolish as possible. It just seems intellectually dishonest, especially when you really have no idea what KC's trade value is (likely more than next to nothing). Ryan didn't do a good job, but in my mind, a good job wasn't really possible. Evaluating TR is based not only the pitchers he acquired, but also the ones he avoided. It's dishonest to continue to critique TR for not signing such-and-such pitchers and not to credit him for avoiding such-and-such pitchers. It's a wash.

And you don't know his level of sincerity, lip-service, and media sweet-nothings. You can go on believe that if the Twins would have paid Grienke one more dollar than the Dodgers did he would come here, but I really doubt his decision was so simple.

If money-dumping Dodgers have lost interest, I wonder if there's some serious redflags (injury/age/peds)...

What with his eyes? I'm an out-stater, mlb.tv sucker, so I'm deprived/privileged from seeing the postgame show.

That was a fun game to watch, honestly. Thanks everyone for the company.

His facial expression is so boyishly surprised.

What the heck is the closer doing in there? You just can't use your best reliever in the highest leverage situation if it's not the ninth. They get the jitterypanics!

Spy, I really don't want to respond to you piecemeal, but I do want to respond to your one quote and try to address all your points in earnest. It doesn't. That's my point (what the heck do we know, right?). We're working with incomplete knowledge and many of us are deriving a haughty sort of certitude. Look, I'm not so sheepish as to use an internet message board group think as some sort of grand baseball wisdom--I'm looking at the short and rather inexpensive contracts each pitcher received (as well as so many of the ones that didn't worked out)--the material market value of these pitchers as dictated by people in baseball paid to priceout that market. I just don't think there's meaningful scouting or statistical evidence to separate the group of Saunders/Villenueva/Haren/Blaton/McCarthy/Marcum/Baker/etc--yes, some have more obvious warts than other, but largely as the result of the contracts they received are viewed as risky endeavors. Only a few teams are celebrating their offseason pitching acquisitions. Again, you're expecting the ideal scenario. To the suggest that Twins didn't buy low on Correia, Pelfry, Harden, Worley is to ignore the context of each acquisition. Not all these buy lows worked out, but they certainly cost lest than Santana. Villenueva never topped 120 innings and has average around 100 for his career--there's not substantial statistical evidence that he could withstand as a starter--it would have been a good signing for the Twins, but that it was an obvious one is hardly a given. I concede on Saunders, but really he's a mid-rotation starter in his mid thirties (which, yes we have so few of). My point on Saunders is that we can't be certain about the nature of his failure to sign. You assume the Twins messed up rather than got screwed. And on Colon, no one offered him enough to pry him away from Oakland, the guy has obvious question marks, and he's known cheater who probably will end his career in suspension. You mentioned quite a few names, and as we parse out each case, it's pretty understandable why the Twins took a pass (or didn't desire to overpay). Really, as I've said, I believe beyond the first tier of pitching, the market was a crap shoot (as demonstrated by the contracts such pitchers received), and you don't. Yes, the Twins should have positioned themselves to acquire another of the questionable commodities, but the one they acquired could (maybe likely) have been just as bad. And again, there's more spots open in the rotation because of the epic failure of Diamond and Worley (and yes, there's applicable criticism to be levied against the Front Office for counting on these two).

Dick acts like his viewers don't watch the Twins often (heck, even occasional)..we know about the two-strike Mauer thing, because you tell us about it every time Mauer has two-strikes. Jesus.

Well, that's a heck of lineup, anyways.

Is that the general sentiment among Brewers fans? Is there a viable/non-rube message board for the Brewers?

Peter Gammons was just talking about (on the MLB Network) how there's been a shift in players attitudes, to the point where the Player's Union no longer seeks to defend cheaters in the same capacity. I'd like to hear from more current players decrying what Braun has done. I wonder how the Diamondbacks (at least those on the 2011 playoff team) are gioing to react when the face Braun next.

Rosario didn't play in either game today. Hmm. Walker with another homer, Sano too. Berrios and Duffy with nice nights. Baxendale did pretty well as well.

Todd Sutton @toddsutton @AaronRodgers12 you really believe he didn't you PED's???? #delusional Aaron Rodgers ✔ @AaronRodgers12 @toddsutton ya I'd put my salary next year on it. #ponyup#exonerated 5:47 PM - 23 Feb 2012

I also want to note that the relative short deals so many pitchers received this offseason is an acknowledgment by baseball front offices what a crap shoot (beyond the top tier) free agency pitching was last year (and probably is in most years).

I agree, but I'm happy to see that they are looking for pitchers in all capacities.

I cleaned it up a little, while you were quoting it. But yeah, I stand by that you treat reasonable liberals* far different than you do reasonable conservatives. *I suppose this opens up to how unreasonable and crazy I am, and how liberalism itself is some exercise in illogic.