jokin

Roberts also had a SB. Shocking that he didn't get a HBP:D. The big news, though is Gibson. Seth, I was impressed in your interview with Gibson and his patient approach to recovery during his rehab. Have you seen him enough before and after his TJ to make an educated guess if he's close to pre-injury form and if he's likely to be on the 2013 opening day roster? Today has to be huge shot in the arm for his chances.

---I think that you're either taking controversial positions with the intention of sparking debate or a certain other poster who has a penchant for selectively acknowledging facts and over-emphasizing trivialities in support of the ridiculous has hacked your account and is posting under your name. So I can take your response to accept that the Twins pathetic acceptance of a $20000 pittance for a fan favorite, an ambassador to baseball, who still had the fire in the belly and with still something left in the tank was better than what they could have received at the deadline in 2011- or what the Orioles received this year- two prospects who have pretty decent major league potential.

---OK, I can see railing on the Twins for the whole Hardy thing, but the Thome deal? Really? He had a full no-trade clase that he didn't waive until late in the season, and then he had to be put through waivers, where he was claimed by Cleveland. Not to mention he was past 40 and it wasn't at all clear he would play beyond 2011. Baseball America had Simon and Lino ranked 18 and 21 among Orioles prospects after 2011, so it's not like they gave up top-tier minor league talent here. Kyle Simon had an outstanding year, getting promoted to AA and he just turned 22 on August 23. In AA he had a WHIP of 0.671 and ERA of 1.42, with outstanding control and a confusing delivery that hitters can't get a bead on. Gabriel Lino is only 19, a catcher, a big kid with power and a strong arm, already playing A ball. I think the Phillies made out a lot better than the Twins did. What do you think?

I never responded to this but I don't think the Twins will rank anywhere near #19. The twins were 20th last year and there were several players that had great seasons while they only had a few disappointments and graduations. they also added Buxton and Berrios to the system. I think they will fall just outside of the top ten. tbh they even have a chance to crack the top 10. this is a pretty strong farm system even if there isn't a lot of pitching. Top Ten? A pretty strong farm system? Seriously? While I am, like most of us, excited about certain guys down at A-/Rk level (where the flame-out rate is very high), who is major league-impact-ready in the next two years besides Arcia and Hicks (Sano and possibly Rosario are probably 2015 at earliest)? I can't find anybody on the roster at AAA (they don't even consider their lights-out reliever worthy of a call-up). Ft Myers was woeful (you could flat out cut about 20 guys there and you wouldn't know the difference), besides Chris Herrman, there are a couple of starting pitchers at AA who might become back-end major leaguers and that's about it. The two MIs brought up this season were acquired this season and they didn't exactly set the world on fire, what does that say about the rest? This is anything but a "pretty strong farm system".

I heartily concur. A really intelligent place to exchange ideas that nicely filled a sorely needed niche for usually thoughtful, and sometimes passionate, debate.

Here are Revere's stats: [TABLE=class: sortable stats_table row_summable] [TH=class: tooltip sort_default_asc show_partial_when_sorting, align: left]Year [/TH] [TH=class: tooltip sort_default_asc show_partial_when_sorting, align: center]Age[/TH] [TH=class: tooltip sort_default_asc show_partial_when_sorting, align: center]Tm [/TH] [TH=class: tooltip sort_default_asc, align: center]Lg[/TH] [TH=class: tooltip, align: center]G[/TH] [TH=class: tooltip, align: center]PA[/TH] [TH=class: tooltip, align: center]AB[/TH] [TH=class: tooltip, align: center]R[/TH] [TH=class: tooltip, align: center]H[/TH] [TH=class: tooltip, align: center]2B[/TH] [TH=class: tooltip, align: center]3B[/TH] [TH=class: tooltip, align: center]HR[/TH] [TH=class: tooltip, align: center]RBI[/TH] [TH=class: tooltip, align: center]SB[/TH] [TH=class: tooltip, align: center]CS[/TH] [TH=class: tooltip, align: center]BB[/TH] [TH=class: tooltip, align: center]SO[/TH] [TH=class: tooltip hide_non_quals, align: center]BA[/TH] [TH=class: tooltip hide_non_quals, align: center]OBP[/TH] [TH=class: tooltip hide_non_quals, align: center]SLG[/TH] [TH=class: tooltip hide_non_quals, align: center]OPS[/TH] [TH=class: tooltip hide_non_quals, align: center]OPS+[/TH] [TH=class: tooltip, align: center]TB[/TH] [TH=class: tooltip, align: center]GDP[/TH] [TH=class: tooltip, align: center]HBP[/TH] [TH=class: tooltip, align: center]SH[/TH] [TH=class: tooltip, align: center]SF[/TH] [TH=class: tooltip, align: center]IBB[/TH] [TH=class: tooltip sort_default_asc, align: left]Pos[/TH] [TH=class: tooltip sort_default_asc show_partial_when_sorting, align: center]WAR [/TH] [TR=class: full] [TD=align: left]2010[/TD] [TD=align: right]22[/TD] [TD=align: left]MIN[/TD] [TD=align: left]AL[/TD] [TD=align: right]13[/TD] [TD=align: right]30[/TD] [TD=align: right]28[/TD] [TD=align: right]1[/TD] [TD=align: right]5[/TD] [TD=align: right]0[/TD] [TD=align: right]0[/TD] [TD=align: right]0[/TD] [TD=align: right]2[/TD] [TD=align: right]0[/TD] [TD=align: right]1[/TD] [TD=align: right]2[/TD] [TD=align: right]5[/TD] [TD=align: right].179[/TD] [TD=align: right].233[/TD] [TD=align: right].179[/TD] [TD=align: right].412[/TD] [TD=align: right]16[/TD] [TD=align: right]5[/TD] [TD=align: right]1[/TD] [TD=align: right]0[/TD] [TD=align: right]0[/TD] [TD=align: right]0[/TD] [TD=align: right]0[/TD] [TD=align: left]/879D[/TD] [TD=align: left][/TD] [/TR] [TR=class: full] [TD=align: left]2011[/TD] [TD=align: right]23[/TD] [TD=align: left]MIN[/TD] [TD=align: left]AL[/TD] [TD=align: right]117[/TD] [TD=align: right]481[/TD] [TD=align: right]450[/TD] [TD=align: right]56[/TD] [TD=align: right]120[/TD] [TD=align: right]9[/TD] [TD=align: right]5[/TD] [TD=align: right]0[/TD] [TD=align: right]30[/TD] [TD=align: right]34[/TD] [TD=align: right]9[/TD] [TD=align: right]26[/TD] [TD=align: right]41[/TD] [TD=align: right].267[/TD] [TD=align: right].310[/TD] [TD=align: right].309[/TD] [TD=align: right].619[/TD] [TD=align: right]72[/TD] [TD=align: right]139[/TD] [TD=align: right]7[/TD] [TD=align: right]2[/TD] [TD=align: right]3[/TD] [TD=align: right]0[/TD] [TD=align: right]1[/TD] [TD=align: left]87/9D[/TD] [TD=align: left].7[/TD] [/TR] [TR=class: full] [TD=align: left]2012[/TD] [TD=align: right]24[/TD] [TD=align: left]MIN[/TD] [TD=align: left]AL[/TD] [TD=align: right]124[/TD] [TD=align: right]553[/TD] [TD=align: right]511[/TD] [TD=align: right]70[/TD] [TD=align: right]150[/TD] [TD=align: right]13[/TD] [TD=align: right]6[/TD] [TD=align: right]0[/TD] [TD=align: right]32[/TD] [TD=align: right]40[/TD] [TD=align: right]9[/TD] [TD=align: right]29[/TD] [TD=align: right]54[/TD] [TD=align: right].294[/TD] [TD=align: right].333[/TD] [TD=align: right].342[/TD] [TD=align: right].675[/TD] [TD=align: right]89[/TD] [TD=align: right]175[/TD] [TD=align: right]8[/TD] [TD=align: right]3[/TD] [TD=align: right]6[/TD] [TD=align: right]4[/TD] [TD=align: right]0[/TD] [TD=align: left]*98/7[/TD] [TD=align: left]2.4[/TD] [/TR] [/TABLE] Brock obviously comes in with more power and a higher OPS+, but Revere already has a much higher amount of SBs and a clearly lower CS% rate. Their combined WAR value in their first two years is nearly identical (Revere 3.1/Brock 3.0). Looking at each of their poor BB%, this also looks favorably upon Revere- his BB rates were 5.4% and 5.2%, while Brock's were 7.3% and 5.3%. But Revere's K rates were way better- 8.5% and 9.8%- versus Brock who struck out at rates of 20.1% and 20.7%. I'm not saying Revere is going to suddenly start a power surge and turn into a can't-miss Hall of Famer, but I don't think he's reached anywhere close to the top of his ceiling, another all-around quantum jump in skills next year like this year shouldn't be easily dismissed as unlikely. If in this off-season, he hits the weight room a little bit, works on adjusting his swing to hit more gaps on the fly and develops a little more plate discipline, combined with his already-established ability to cover more ground in the OF than just about anyone in baseball, I think he could be on the cusp of a near-great-to-great career. Since the main topic of concern is the failure at getting on base, it's important to go back to the stats. Brock's OBP dropped from .319 to .300 from year one to year two. In his first 5 years, Brock had 3 out of 5 seasons of OBP below what Revere achieved this season at .333 (this includes the 1966 season as year 5, which because of space limitations, I couldn't publish in Brock's stat line).

[TABLE=class: sortable stats_table row_summable] [TH=class: tooltip sort_default_asc show_partial_when_sorting, align: left]Year[/TH] [TH=class: tooltip sort_default_asc show_partial_when_sorting, align: center]Age[/TH] [TH=class: tooltip sort_default_asc show_partial_when_sorting, align: center]Tm[/TH] [TH=class: tooltip sort_default_asc, align: center]Lg[/TH] [TH=class: tooltip, align: center]G[/TH] [TH=class: tooltip, align: center]PA[/TH] [TH=class: tooltip, align: center]AB[/TH] [TH=class: tooltip, align: center]R[/TH] [TH=class: tooltip, align: center]H[/TH] [TH=class: tooltip, align: center]2B[/TH] [TH=class: tooltip, align: center]3B[/TH] [TH=class: tooltip, align: center]HR[/TH] [TH=class: tooltip, align: center]RBI[/TH] [TH=class: tooltip, align: center]SB[/TH] [TH=class: tooltip, align: center]CS[/TH] [TH=class: tooltip, align: center]BB[/TH] [TH=class: tooltip, align: center]SO[/TH] [TH=class: tooltip hide_non_quals, align: center]BA[/TH] [TH=class: tooltip hide_non_quals, align: center]OBP[/TH] [TH=class: tooltip hide_non_quals, align: center]SLG[/TH] [TH=class: tooltip hide_non_quals, align: center]OPS[/TH] [TH=class: tooltip hide_non_quals, align: center]OPS+[/TH] [TH=class: tooltip, align: center]TB[/TH] [TH=class: tooltip, align: center]GDP[/TH] [TH=class: tooltip, align: center]HBP[/TH] [TH=class: tooltip, align: center]SH[/TH] [TH=class: tooltip, align: center]SF[/TH] [TH=class: tooltip, align: center]IBB[/TH] [TH=class: tooltip sort_default_asc, align: left]Pos[/TH] [TH=class: tooltip sort_default_asc show_partial_when_sorting, align: center]WAR [/TH] [TR=class: full] [TD=align: left]1961[/TD] [TD=align: right]22[/TD] [TD=align: left]CHC[/TD] [TD=align: left]NL[/TD] [TD=align: right]4[/TD] [TD=align: right]12[/TD] [TD=align: right]11[/TD] [TD=align: right]1[/TD] [TD=align: right]1[/TD] [TD=align: right]0[/TD] [TD=align: right]0[/TD] [TD=align: right]0[/TD] [TD=align: right]0[/TD] [TD=align: right]0[/TD] [TD=align: right]0[/TD] [TD=align: right]1[/TD] [TD=align: right]3[/TD] [TD=align: right].091[/TD] [TD=align: right].167[/TD] [TD=align: right].091[/TD] [TD=align: right].258[/TD] [TD=align: right]-29[/TD] [TD=align: right]1[/TD] [TD=align: right]0[/TD] [TD=align: right]0[/TD] [TD=align: right]0[/TD] [TD=align: right]0[/TD] [TD=align: right]0[/TD] [TD=align: left]/8[/TD] [TD=align: left][/TD] [/TR] [TR=class: full] [TD=align: left]1962[/TD] [TD=align: right]23[/TD] [TD=align: left]CHC[/TD] [TD=align: left]NL[/TD] [TD=align: right]123[/TD] [TD=align: right]477[/TD] [TD=align: right]434[/TD] [TD=align: right]73[/TD] [TD=align: right]114[/TD] [TD=align: right]24[/TD] [TD=align: right]7[/TD] [TD=align: right]9[/TD] [TD=align: right]35[/TD] [TD=align: right]16[/TD] [TD=align: right]7[/TD] [TD=align: right]35[/TD] [TD=align: right]96[/TD] [TD=align: right].263[/TD] [TD=align: right].319[/TD] [TD=align: right].412[/TD] [TD=align: right].731[/TD] [TD=align: right]92[/TD] [TD=align: right]179[/TD] [TD=align: right]5[/TD] [TD=align: right]3[/TD] [TD=align: right]0[/TD] [TD=align: right]5[/TD] [TD=align: right]4[/TD] [TD=align: left]8[/TD] [TD=align: left].7 [/TD] [/TR] [TR=class: full] [TD=align: left]1963[/TD] [TD=align: right]24[/TD] [TD=align: left]CHC[/TD] [TD=align: left]NL[/TD] [TD=align: right]148[/TD] [TD=align: right]588[/TD] [TD=align: right]547[/TD] [TD=align: right]79[/TD] [TD=align: right]141[/TD] [TD=align: right]19[/TD] [TD=align: right]11[/TD] [TD=align: right]9[/TD] [TD=align: right]37[/TD] [TD=align: right]24[/TD] [TD=align: right]12[/TD] [TD=align: right]31[/TD] [TD=align: right]122[/TD] [TD=align: right].258[/TD] [TD=align: right].300[/TD] [TD=align: right].382[/TD] [TD=align: right].682[/TD] [TD=align: right]91[/TD] [TD=align: right]209[/TD] [TD=align: right]2[/TD] [TD=align: right]4[/TD] [TD=align: right]2[/TD] [TD=align: right]4[/TD] [TD=align: right]2[/TD] [TD=align: left]*9[/TD] [TD=align: left]2.3 [/TD] [/TR] [TR=class: full] [TD=align: left]1964[/TD] [TD=align: right]25[/TD] [TD=align: left]TOT[/TD] [TD=align: left]NL[/TD] [TD=align: right]155[/TD] [TD=align: right]695[/TD] [TD=align: right]634[/TD] [TD=align: right]111[/TD] [TD=align: right]200[/TD] [TD=align: right]30[/TD] [TD=align: right]11[/TD] [TD=align: right]14[/TD] [TD=align: right]58[/TD] [TD=align: right]43[/TD] [TD=align: right]18[/TD] [TD=align: right]40[/TD] [TD=align: right]127[/TD] [TD=align: right].315[/TD] [TD=align: right].358[/TD] [TD=align: right].464[/TD] [TD=align: right].821[/TD] [TD=align: right]123[/TD] [TD=align: right]294[/TD] [TD=align: right]5[/TD] [TD=align: right]4[/TD] [TD=align: right]13[/TD] [TD=align: right]4[/TD] [TD=align: right]0[/TD] [TD=align: left]*79/8[/TD] [TD=align: left]5.6 [/TD] [/TR] [TR=class: partial_table] [TD=align: left]1964[/TD] [TD=align: right]25[/TD] [TD=align: left]CHC[/TD] [TD=align: left]NL[/TD] [TD=align: right]52[/TD] [TD=align: right]231[/TD] [TD=align: right]215[/TD] [TD=align: right]30[/TD] [TD=align: right]54[/TD] [TD=align: right]9[/TD] [TD=align: right]2[/TD] [TD=align: right]2[/TD] [TD=align: right]14[/TD] [TD=align: right]10[/TD] [TD=align: right]3[/TD] [TD=align: right]13[/TD] [TD=align: right]40[/TD] [TD=align: right].251[/TD] [TD=align: right].300[/TD] [TD=align: right].340[/TD] [TD=align: right].640[/TD] [TD=align: right]77[/TD] [TD=align: right]73[/TD] [TD=align: right]3[/TD] [TD=align: right]2[/TD] [TD=align: right]1[/TD] [TD=align: right]0[/TD] [TD=align: right]0[/TD] [TD=align: left]9/8[/TD] [TD=align: left][/TD] [/TR] [TR=class: partial_table] [TD=align: left]1964[/TD] [TD=align: right]25[/TD] [TD=align: left]STL[/TD] [TD=align: left]NL[/TD] [TD=align: right]103[/TD] [TD=align: right]464[/TD] [TD=align: right]419[/TD] [TD=align: right]81[/TD] [TD=align: right]146[/TD] [TD=align: right]21[/TD] [TD=align: right]9[/TD] [TD=align: right]12[/TD] [TD=align: right]44[/TD] [TD=align: right]33[/TD] [TD=align: right]15[/TD] [TD=align: right]27[/TD] [TD=align: right]87[/TD] [TD=align: right].348[/TD] [TD=align: right].387[/TD] [TD=align: right].527[/TD] [TD=align: right].915[/TD] [TD=align: right]146[/TD] [TD=align: right]221[/TD] [TD=align: right]2[/TD] [TD=align: right]2[/TD] [TD=align: right]12[/TD] [TD=align: right]4[/TD] [TD=align: right]0[/TD] [TD=align: left]7/98[/TD] [TD=align: left][/TD] [/TR] [TR=class: full] [TD=align: left]1965[/TD] [TD=align: right]26[/TD] [TD=align: left]STL[/TD] [TD=align: left]NL[/TD] [TD=align: right]155[/TD] [TD=align: right]697[/TD] [TD=align: right]631[/TD] [TD=align: right]107[/TD] [TD=align: right]182[/TD] [TD=align: right]35[/TD] [TD=align: right]8[/TD] [TD=align: right]16[/TD] [TD=align: right]69[/TD] [TD=align: right]63[/TD] [TD=align: right]27[/TD] [TD=align: right]45[/TD] [TD=align: right]116[/TD] [TD=align: right].288[/TD] [TD=align: right].345[/TD] [TD=align: right].445[/TD] [TD=align: right].791[/TD] [TD=align: right]114[/TD] [TD=align: right]281[/TD] [TD=align: right]2[/TD] [TD=align: right]10[/TD] [TD=align: right]11[/TD] [TD=align: right]0[/TD] [TD=align: right]6[/TD] [TD=align: left]*7/98[/TD] [TD=align: left]4.0 [/TD] [/TR] [/TABLE]

[TABLE=class: sortable stats_table row_summable] [TH=class: tooltip hide_non_quals, align: center][/TH] [TH=class: tooltip, align: center][/TH] [TH=class: tooltip, align: center][/TH] [TH=class: tooltip, align: center][/TH] [TH=class: tooltip, align: center][/TH] [TH=class: tooltip, align: center][/TH] [TH=class: tooltip, align: center][/TH] [TH=class: tooltip sort_default_asc, align: left][/TH] [TH=class: tooltip sort_default_asc show_partial_when_sorting, align: center][/TH] [TR=class: full] [TD=align: left][/TD] [TD=align: right][/TD] [TD=align: left][/TD] [TD=align: left][/TD] [TD=align: right][/TD] [TD=align: right][/TD] [TD=align: right][/TD] [TD=align: right][/TD] [TD=align: right][/TD] [TD=align: right][/TD] [TD=align: right][/TD] [TD=align: right][/TD] [TD=align: right][/TD] [TD=align: right][/TD] [TD=align: right][/TD] [TD=align: right][/TD] [TD=align: right][/TD] [TD=align: right][/TD] [TD=align: right][/TD] [TD=align: right][/TD] [TD=align: right][/TD] [TD=align: right][/TD] [TD=align: right][/TD] [TD=align: right][/TD] [TD=align: right][/TD] [TD=align: right][/TD] [TD=align: right][/TD] [TD=align: right][/TD] [TD=align: left][/TD] [TD=align: left][/TD] [/TR] [TR=class: full] [TD=align: left][/TD] [TD=align: right][/TD] [TD=align: left][/TD] [TD=align: left][/TD] [TD=align: right][/TD] [TD=align: right][/TD] [TD=align: right][/TD] [TD=align: right][/TD] [TD=align: right][/TD] [TD=align: right][/TD] [TD=align: right][/TD] [TD=align: right][/TD] [TD=align: right][/TD] [TD=align: right][/TD] [TD=align: right][/TD] [TD=align: right][/TD] [TD=align: right][/TD] [TD=align: right][/TD] [TD=align: right][/TD] [TD=align: right][/TD] [TD=align: right][/TD] [TD=align: right][/TD] [TD=align: right][/TD] [TD=align: right][/TD] [TD=align: right][/TD] [TD=align: right][/TD] [TD=align: right][/TD] [TD=align: right][/TD] [TD=align: left][/TD] [TD=align: left][/TD] [/TR] [TR=class: full] [TD=align: left][/TD] [TD=align: right][/TD] [TD=align: left][/TD] [TD=align: left][/TD] [TD=align: right][/TD] [TD=align: right][/TD] [TD=align: right][/TD] [TD=align: right][/TD] [TD=align: right][/TD] [TD=align: right][/TD] [TD=align: right][/TD] [TD=align: right][/TD] [TD=align: right][/TD] [TD=align: right][/TD] [TD=align: right][/TD] [TD=align: right][/TD] [TD=align: right][/TD] [TD=align: right][/TD] [TD=align: right][/TD] [TD=align: right][/TD] [TD=align: right][/TD] [TD=align: right][/TD] [TD=align: right][/TD] [TD=align: right][/TD] [TD=align: right][/TD] [TD=align: right][/TD] [TD=align: right][/TD] [TD=align: right][/TD] [TD=align: left][/TD] [TD=align: left][/TD] [/TR] [TR=class: full] [TD=align: left][/TD] [TD=align: right][/TD] [TD=align: left][/TD] [TD=align: left][/TD] [TD=align: right][/TD] [TD=align: right][/TD] [TD=align: right][/TD] [TD=align: right][/TD] [TD=align: right][/TD] [TD=align: right][/TD] [TD=align: right][/TD] [TD=align: right][/TD] [TD=align: right][/TD] [TD=align: right][/TD] [TD=align: right][/TD] [TD=align: 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Failure to get on base. Until Revere can consistently hit above .300 and OBP at .340 or better, his value is marginal. Guys who are threats on the basepaths are only useful if they can get on base. Revere did that for half a season but the other half, he failed to get on base often enough to be a legitimate MLB starter. But, as you said, he's only 24. There is room for improvement, I just don't think he'll be the player some Twins fans dream he will be. Disclaimer: I'm almost always down on burners who can't hit it in the gaps and can't take a walk. Without those attributes, I don't care how fast they are, they almost never turn out to be much better than league average. The Cubs made the same thumbs down decision on future HOFer, Lou Brock, to their everlasting dread. Looking at the career stats, surprising numbers where Revere compares very favorably with Brock after their first two years. Both are about the same size (5'9"/5'10" & 170lbs.), both entered the bigs full-time at the same age, 23. Here are Brock's stats in his first 5+ years:

I'm going to contend that this is a bunch of garbage. Every team has a rough stretch in the draft and you can't pick out one team that has been successful to say otherwise. Kobs is absolutely right that the Twins can't have another draft stretch like 04-08 but that horrific stretch is still producing big league regulars which some teams haven't even been able to do. They don't have a lot of arms in the system still but overall the Twins have a very strong farm system and Ryan was part of that effort even if he wasn't GM. I think you're also exaggerating when you say 6-8 years. there are 4-5 yrs that are unimpressive but if you want to go further than that then you are going to need to include drafts that featured Hicks and Gibson or drafts that featured Baker, Span and Mauer. Replacement level at best? i call complete bull. Plouffe just hit 24 HR's in 2/3's of season that included an injured hand. Even if you call this season his best that is WAY ABOVE replacement level. Parmelee was just named the 5th best int'l league prospect by BA. Neither of these guys will be all stars but replacement level? try not to exaggerate. Trevor Plouffe's WAR is 0.9 according to BR. That is the worst value- for either BR or Fangraphs- among 3B with more than 400 PAs (save one, Jordan Pachecho who played 3B part-time). So no, he is not a "WAY ABOVE" replacement level player. If you want to get excited about a RH-batting Kelly Johnson-potential level player, he might reach that level, still nothing to get too excited about if that's the best the Twins could do from 04-08. The jury is still out on Parmelee. Perhaps "replacement level" on the part of the poster was too harsh, but try not to exaggerate in the other direction when your premise for their chances is based more on hope than facts. Regarding your draft history summation, Baker, Span and Mauer is ancient history and Hicks and Gibson are still, to this point, also based more on hope than facts. I too have high hopes for both of them, but it IS more hope than it is confidence that it will pan out. You mentioned BA and your feeling that the Twins farm system was strong. BA has NO Twins org pitchers that are listed in their individual league rankings and of the 7 players mentioned by BA, Parmelee is the only one who is a certifiable infielder and that's at 1B (if and when Morneau is traded), which means the Twins only position of strength in their farm system is 6 OFs. Unacceptable for a team that wants to be competitive when this next round of potential stars reaches the big league starting lineup in 2014-15.

Wow, that list is your argument for maintaining the status quo? They ran off Garza, Perkins was basically ready to be run off when he failed to develop as a starter and they stumbled on him as an effective bullpen option with the injury collapses of Nathan and Capps, every other pitcher on this list is: a has-been who was also run off- a "I don't know how to use a lefty who can only get out lefties"- and- a wish, a hope and a prayer that he will ever pan out as anything above a #4-5 starter. The jury is still out on every single one of the position players you mention, as well- not one "can't-miss" guy among them. While the two FA pickups worked out, they were replacements for the losses of 4 players- Thome, Cuddyer, Young and Kubel. The two FAs also had career years in 2012, can they do it again or should they have been flipped so that for once, the Twins could be sellers when their value was at its highest? perhaps you missed what I wrote the first time. How much blame should ryan get during BS's time as GM? Absolutely awful decisions were and he was still in the FO but I don't how much control/input he had. I also said it might be too early to tell about the horrific drafting and development the Twins had from '04-'09. I'm guessing you don't really understand what horrific means. They haven't had a lot of success from the draft recently but they are still getting solid ballplayers. I'm not sure how you can be critical of last year's offseason. they picked up better ballplayers at half the cost and got 3 extra draft picks. I think that is a pretty outstanding job. I'm also not sure I would call them career years. willingham has a .845 career OPS and this year he had a .890 OPS. Doumit had a .777 OPS this year and a .771 career OPS. Ryan has made bad decisions (Capps definitely) and I'll criticize him but I think you are being ridiculous. I know what the term horrific means and didn't use that term, I merely stated that the names you put up is an embarrassing defense for maintaining the status quo. To reiterate, they ran off Garza and Slowey and Perkins was about to be the next one- from a team with no pitching in the pipeline behind them! The ridiculousness in this subject is pretending that the mismanagement since 2004 didn't really occur and that everything will be just fine once we just give a little more time to maintaining the status quo thinking for the Twins' ship to be righted. This team, because of the mismanagment starting at the close of the first Ryan era and throughout the BS era, should be in major rebuild mode. Instead, Ryan Era Redux is trying to have it both ways- contender and rebuilder- and that never works. Regarding the FA pickups. I wasn't critical about them in particular. At least one of the sandwich picks looks like it might work out great. The FAs were good pickups- just misguided thinking in their worth to the team, given the Twins' predicament- clearly a rebuilder, not a contender. Let's see their numbers: Willingham, 34 years old in 2013. Career highs in HR, 2B, SLG, RBI, BB, WAR, PA, wOBA, Runs Scored, Games Played. Doumit, 32 years old in 2013. Career highs in HR, 2B, RBI, PA, Games Played. These are guys that played well and saved the team money, money "saved" that should have been spent to upgrade weaknesses in the MI and SP. So they didn't improve the team as much as replace what 4 players gave them the year before (Willingham/Doumit 5.5 combined WAR in 2012 vs. a combined 2011 WAR of 5.7 for the other 4 players). At this point, as much as I appreciate what they have done to make 2012 interesting, they should have been/should still be offered up for what the market will bring while their market value is at its highest. Both will be irrelevant by the time the next wave of talent is ready to compete. Do you honestly see further upside as members of the MN Twins? They also should have acquired at least 2 starting pitchers on one-year deals for additional short-term bolstering and as potential trade chips with low risk to the club. In the meantime, we have pitchers and position players ungrounded, and apparently untrained, in basic baseball fundamentals (holding runners, bunting, baserunning, hitting cutoffs, situational hitting and fielding, etc.) by the time they reach Target Field. A pitching staff chock full of pitch-to-contact mediocrity. We have a front office that hasn't produced a trade or a draft pick that has been a meaningful impact player for any extended period of time since who knows when. We've sat in the prime waiver wire spot at the bottom of the AL for two years now and have declined taking advantage of it time and time again. I never used the term horrific and wouldn't necessarily characterize that era as such, but Ryan was in on the contraction plot and started the downward spiral on talent development before his first departure.

Getting rid of Hardy for nothing, and leaving an embarrassing MIF of Nishi/Casilla/Tolbert/Cuddyer !?! should have gotten everyone who had their fingerprints on the deal fired forthwith. As I've stated before, Hardy may not be the "rangiest" SS, but his UZR ratings since 2005 have him ranked as #1, a credit to his strong arm and consistent ability to gobble up every thing in front of him. Even when he has a down year at the plate like this one, he still hits for a level of power for a MI that no one else in the Twins org. has ever attained and a down offensive year has little to no effect on his defense. Now, those 3 guys you mention are gone and playing on a playoff team and what do the Twins have to show for getting rid of them? Nada. Lew Ford obviously makes no difference, but people forget, besides Hardy, the Twins gave away Thome for $20000 and Baltimore demonstrated how clueless the Twins were in that bonehead move when they acquired Thome this year by giving two of their Top Ten prospects to the Phillies. Hardy for Nishi/Hoey was monumentally bad, giving away Thome for nothing wasn't all that far behind.

Injury-prone, HA! The Twins knew they were acquiring a guy from the Brewers coming off of an injury that would take a year to completely heal. They should be completely embarrassed and held accountable as an organization for what Hardy has accomplished the last two years. Even this season's "awful" plate numbers, combined with the defensive stats you cited illustrate the level of cluelessness the Twins demonstrated in their perceived value of Hardy (and Gardy's input played a part in that perception, too).

Wow, that list is your argument for maintaining the status quo? They ran off Garza, Perkins was basically ready to be run off when he failed to develop as a starter and they stumbled on him as an effective bullpen option with the injury collapses of Nathan and Capps, every other pitcher on this list is: a has-been who was also run off- a "I don't know how to use a lefty who can only get out lefties"- and- a wish, a hope and a prayer that he will ever pan out as anything above a #4-5 starter. The jury is still out on every single one of the position players you mention, as well- not one "can't-miss" guy among them. While the two FA pickups worked out, they were replacements for the losses of 4 players- Thome, Cuddyer, Young and Kubel. The two FAs also had career years in 2012, can they do it again or should they have been flipped so that for once, the Twins could be sellers when their value was at its highest?

---Good question. Every time the subject of staff changes comes up, there's a chorus of demands for Molitor, Gladden, Hrbek, Brunansky, Carew, etc. But there's more to coaching and managing than telling war stories from your glory days. I need to see something more than "he played good for the Twins 2 or 3 decades ago" on a guy's resume to convince me he should be brought on board. I'll join the chorus, Gladden isn't a great radio announcer, but pretty good at calling a spade a spade and was a leader on the field during his playing days and seems to be player's mentor who can light a fire of encouragment. Bruno has had some of the guys he's worked with speak up for him. Omar Vizquel has already been credited for mentoring the younger guys during his playing days. Ivan Rodriguez is begging for a coaching job and was an absolute competitor. All of these guys would be a fresh of breath air if they joined the coaching staff, after games when Gardy might claim that the players "battled their tails off" I might even tend to believe him. ---I'm actually OK with Bruno because he has a track record of coaching success. Gladden does not. I'd be thrilled if we had guys play the game the way he did. Maybe he could get guys to play that way, but his personality and playing career alone are not a basis for assuming he can. The fact that you were a great player in an orchestra does not necessarily mean you will make a great conductor. The other guys you mentioned were not Twins. I'm not against former players. I'm against the idea that being a good Twins player once upon a time means you'll be a good coach today. So are you for or against hiring outside the organization? How about bringing in some new blood with a proven successful track record that might have a different approach to the "same old, same old" "Twins Way"?

Yeah, and the whole premise of this article turns out to be "overkill" as somehow Nick Nelson's pictured weapon for his "Bloodbath" should have been a hatchet instead of an axe. And, as it turns out, the clean-up from this bloodbath will only require a sponge rather than Zamboni.

I asked this on another thread. I do know of one for sure, and it illustrates the current problem. Tom Kelly. 97,98,99,00 (with loss totals of 97,92,97,93). And who was the GM then? You and your common threads. Stop with your whining facts!

---Good question. Every time the subject of staff changes comes up, there's a chorus of demands for Molitor, Gladden, Hrbek, Brunansky, Carew, etc. But there's more to coaching and managing than telling war stories from your glory days. I need to see something more than "he played good for the Twins 2 or 3 decades ago" on a guy's resume to convince me he should be brought on board. I'll join the chorus, Gladden isn't a great radio announcer, but pretty good at calling a spade a spade and was a leader on the field during his playing days and seems to be player's mentor who can light a fire of encouragment. Bruno has had some of the guys he's worked with speak up for him. Omar Vizquel has already been credited for mentoring the younger guys during his playing days. Ivan Rodriguez is begging for a coaching job and was an absolute competitor. All of these guys would be a fresh of breath air if they joined the coaching staff, after games when Gardy might claim that the players "battled their tails off" I might even tend to believe him.

Thrylos, I thought you were pretty adamant that Molitor was "in" yesterday. I didn't see it based on his last tenure with the club. What happened? My thinking was that Gardy put his foot down for his main guys and squeezed one more year out of the Twins for him and his drinking buddies, the "reassignments" and firings were merely for public PR consumption that the Twins were "doing something." This talk that Gardy is on a short leash and could be out by May in 2013 is hogwash. When was the last time the Twins fired a manager? 26 years. When is the last time they fired a manager in the middle of the season? .......?

Frankly, I think you're on the money here. I'd agree that Terry Ryan's head shouldn't be called for, but this seems like a move that re-instates a status quo when maybe new ideas should probably be being considered. Would you two stop all your whining, you guys are clearly the problem on this board. Join the majority of the "pretty reasonable" folks here who keep the faith, don't engage in "knee jerk reactions" and blindly support the Twins to continue the status quo.

I think that most people forgot how bad also was Terry Ryan as a GM in his first part of his first stint with the Twins. Ryan was a GM for the Twins from 1994-2006 and in 2012. During that 14 year stint the Twins Won the division 4 times finished second 1 time finished third 1 time finished fourth 4 times finished last 4 times and from those 14 seasons, the Twins have had winning records only 6. And he was fine with the contraction... and he undid what McPhail did. So tell me, as a whole is that "good" or "bad"? I don't know if it was as whole good or bad, but can you stop with the "knee jerk reactions" already, you're giving me whiplash with all your- unfair-to-the-"pretty reasonable"-crowd, off-the-top-of-your-head- facts....

I was typing while you were posting. The example of Bobby Valentine is a poor one. He would not fit here, would never have been considered by ownership or management, and besides that, he would never have wanted to come here. How about Ron Washington or Mike Scoscia? Much better fits, who may both soon be looking for another job. With all the Latin players here or on the fast track to the majors, how about contacting Ivan Rodriguez for a coaching job? I bet Omar Vizquel would jump at a major league coaching job offer. There certainly have to be potential pitching coaches out there available that could give the Twins the fresh approach they so desperately need with all the young arms in the organization. Sign two FA pitchers that don't need a lot of hands-on attention and you've got yourself a change in the right direction back towards AL relevancy.

I asked this on another thread. I do know of one for sure, and it illustrates the current problem. Tom Kelly. 97,98,99,00 (with loss totals of 97,92,97,93).

Agreed. The writing was on the wall when the Twins brought Glynn into the organization. I suspect that he will be the 3B coach, since in addition to manager, he was Rochester's 3B coach. With Bruno the hitting coach and Cuellar the BP coach it will be interesting to see where Molitor fits (probably bench) and who will be the 1B coach. A couple of thoughts: - The Twins are set up to #FireGardyNAndy in May of 2013 if needed (i.e. if the team sucks again) and have a full succession plan in the bigs in place - That succession plan would be very interesting, i.e. who will have the upper hand, Molitor or Glynn. - On times that a team is not promoting players on the 40 man roster in September to save $, giving MLB paychecks to Scotty and Vavry as "IF and OF instructors", gives the wrong message. Maybe they will be interviewing for one of the many openings out there this off-season. Is Molitor's hiring a done deal?

Smells like club "paralysis" to me...