jokin

Yeah, that simply isn't true nor will you provide one shred of evidence stating such. There is no need to provide any more shreds of evidence, it's already ubiquitously abundant, from the Twins own mouths and actions. Trying not to violate policy here. One trade of a player does not make for a salary dump. No FA signings when there have not yet been any significant FA signings does not mean the Twins are not going to spend any money. So what kind of thought process leads to jokin's statement? This isn't rocket science. The Twins had a full boat of in-their-prime players going into 2011 and went all-in at approximately $114M on the payroll. As we all know, the season ended up in disaster from early on, the Twins publicly profferred, while still in-season, that they were going to significantly cut payroll for 2012, even with a bevy of players still in their prime. Obviously, something happened between Smith and Ownership regarding philosophical and financial differences from Oct 1 to his dismissal in late November. Ryan re-entered the picture and continued the previously publicly announced payroll slashing while making incremental band-aid upgrades to keep the product cosmetically saleable to the the marketing department. Can anyone dispute the fact that the Twins were in a very healthy position financially to maintain their 2011 payroll in 2012 by acquiring one or two legitimate SPs? The Twins did the opposite, by not re-signing any of their FAs, they clearly chose to play a dual game, selling one concept of "fielding a competitive team" to the buying public- while quietly admitting to the press, "off the record", that payroll was going to be cut in 2012 (which happened) and possibly, 2013 (which they have admitted, could very well happen). Thus far, they are holding true to form for their quiet admissions to Lavelle, et al. The last step of the process is moving the remaining high-dollar 2013 expiring contracts now or in-season, or, letting them lapse at season's end. By trading one of your 2 best bargaining chips for a pitcher who likely won't be a significant factor until 2015, even with an appalling need for SP arms in 2013, tells you this is a team in rebuild mode, whether they admit it or not.

Totally disingenuous comparison, and yet another reason not to take you seriously. Elaborate please on what is disingenuous about the comparisons, specifically.

THIS. You nailed it. I will quibble though, Span's team-friendly contract alone should have been valuable enough to throw in a secondary ML arm or Middle Infield prospect to the deal.

Yeah, that simply isn't true nor will you provide one shred of evidence stating such. There is no need to provide any more shreds of evidence, it's already ubiquitously abundant, from the Twins own mouths and actions.

Wow, taking things a little too personally, or what? You are well aware that you are in violation of poster decorum for your perjoratives, right? I never said "nobody likes it". I merely quoted one talking head second-guessing the trade, without editorial comment, and you jump all over me because we have a slight disagreement ( I actually will remain optimistic about Meyer until proven different). Regarding Hoey, you didn't read my whole post, a post in which I clearly stated that Ryan made out better than Smith when trading a proven up-the-middle position player for a minor league hard-throwing pitcher. I also published the comps at the same age and level of development, there was no attempt at correlation on the current state of each player and I clearly pointed out the Meyers numbers were accomplished as a Starting Pitcher. Time for a cleansing breath.

Mechanics? This guy's release point covers all points of the map in the Lower 48 States. Here you go: http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/washington-nationals-pitching-prospect-alex-meyer-scouting-report-video/ It has become painfully clear that this is a high-risk/high-reward/potential crashing downside trade that desperate clubs have to make if they want to get back in the game. That and it insures the club continues marching towards its inexorable drop to a $65M payroll in 2014, which sadly appears to be the club's prime imperative at this point.

Inevitable yes, but this is what I was afraid of, the inevitable reprecussions from the media: http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/nationals-steal-denard-span-from-twins/ Seth, per your edit: The following is portions of 3 paragraphs from the 10 paragraph article. If this is too much copy, it can be edited again, but these are the cogent points to the ongoing debate: Nationals Steal Denard Span from Twins by David Cameron "To be honest, I’m a bit surprised at the price at which Minnesota was willing to sell Span off. I get that they’re rebuilding and they feel like Ben Revere can handle center field in the short term, but Span is the kind of player they could have kept as they rebuilt..... and the Twins sold him off for an A-ball pitching prospect who may end up in relief. I don’t mean to downplay Meyer’s value as a prospect, as any 6’9 kid who throws in the upper 90s and throws a wipeout slider is a legitimately interesting return, but no one is yet certain that he’s going to stick in the rotation long term. He had a successful debut season between the South Atlantic and Carolina Leagues, but he was a 22-year-old college arm facing batters with significantly less experience. He’s yet to get to Double-A, and the questions about his mechanics haven’t yet been entirely answered. There’s some real upside here, but there’s also a chance that the command regresses and he ends up as a closer rather than a starter. Meyer’s a bit of a lottery ticket. Legitimate upside, legitimate concerns about his future role, and at least another year of development before he’s ready to contribute in Minnesota. Meyer’s a Top 100 prospect, and if you think he’ll stick as a starter, probably a Top 50 guy. The Twins got a real talent back in return for Span, but it’s a talent with too many question marks to be the piece they’re getting back in return for a three win player under team control at a fraction of his market price. "

First and Foremost, I really like Span. Terrific player and a better person. However, I am often guilty, like many of us, for over-valuing our Players and Prospects and what we can get for them. For me, Span was worth a high-ceiling pitching prospect like White, although I hoped they could get a couple of C-level prospects with White.But, my assumption was that if the Twins really wanted a major-league ready starter for Span, it would have been more like a #4 or #5 type of starter. So, there is risk with White since he's only got one year of time. There is risk because he hasn't seen AA yet. We can look at his numbers and say they're pretty solid. But White is all about projectability, not about stats at this point. Guys that tall often take a little bit longer to develop, especially control, because for whatever reason, it's more difficult to find a consistent release point. After Gibson's first full season, he was up in AAA. White got to Hi-A (which is where Gibson started). That speaks to polish. Gibson is polished. But when it comes to upside, White's is certainly higher due to the extra mph. We'll see what happens ,but I'm excited that TR didn't just take MLB ready guys. Instead he got a high-upside potential guy. "White"?

Terry Ryan and PPMPPPP In the category of "Payroll Paring Moves of Proven Players at Premium Positions", Ryan definitely has Smith beaten and deserves some credit. Hardy for Hoey ranks near an all-time low in Twins trading annals. Span for Meyer looks somewhat better, on paper anyways. Let's look at some comparable numbers: Jim Hoey 6'6"/205#s Hoey combined numbers at age 23 playing at 3 levels (A/A+/AA): IP 51/ERA 2.28/WHIP 1.11/K^9 12.9/BB^9 3.2 Alex Meyer 6'9"/220#s Meyer combined numbers at age 22 at 2 levels (A/A+): IP 129/ERA 2.86/WHIP 1.10/K^9 9.7/BB^9 3.1 Obviously, Meyer achieved the bulk of his numbers as a starter, so the comp is less than exact, but still... both pitchers come advertised with major mechanics issues.

When you make a denial to a question not asked (ie "we are not in salary dump mode") means the opposite is likely true. When Ryan has been asked your question, Brock, we've simply gotten obfuscation, following the same rule, the opposite of obfuscation in this case means they are likely in salary cut mode and any signings/ trade acquisitions will have need of plenty of lipstick and garland when ultimately presented as prize acquisitions ready to lead the club's "CompetitiveTurnaround of 2013" Question: Over/Under on TF averaging 20,000/game next year?

I've posted with Nick and argued with him for a half decade now. He was one of the first people off the "Duensing as starter" bandwagon way back in 2010 or so. You're grossly misrepresenting his point and you're doing it intentionally. When the Twins were awful, did Nick support Duensing in the rotation? Yeah, we ALL did because the other options were so dreadful that they made the team completely unwatchable. Nick didn't want Duensing in the rotation, he reluctantly admitted that Brian was less awful than the Twins' other choices. It's not a difficult concept to grasp. While nobody wants to take a kick in the nuts or the shin, if you're forced to choose one or the other, you take the kick in the shins because it hurts less. It doesn't mean you walk around town with a "Please kick me in the shins" t-shirt because you love it so much. Christ. Actually, if you do the research, he was advocating for Duensing when the Twins were on their "mini-hot streak" in May/June and you guys looking to write stuff pretended the Twins could still make a run at the Central Division when they cut the lead to 8 games. Look it up. You are rewriting history to some extent. I did some archival research at the time and there was some giddy optimisim present at TD last June- though the season was lost from day one and only certain people in Twins management and TD were in denial of that fact. SP depth was an ever-present problem and wasn't sufficiently addressed as the Twins chose instead, to cut payroll in the 2011 offseason. By mid-May the Twins FO should have accepted the state they were in with the SP and stuck with trying out youngsters and taking the inevitable poundings and they could also have gone to a 3x3 inning pitching matrix when appropriate. The result of which by forcing Brian's round peg into Gardy's square hole in his head, Duensing went from having a great season and enhancing his future value to being wholly physically unprepared for his statistical-peripherals- predictable and inevitable collapse as a starter. As you said- and I concurred at the time- and told him he was better than what he was writing- Nick wrote as such about what the Dunce brought to the table in 2011 as well as 2010/

You're going a little over the top with these "implications" you have me making. It's nothing so sinister. All I was doing was calling attention to the fact that Liriano has repeatedly shown an ability to dominate, which I believe you're unlikely to find among other pitchers available oncheap-ish one-year deals in this market. This is a guy who was a Game 1 postseason starter two years ago. You admit that your frustration with him is tied up in emotion, and that's sort of my point. I believe that his struggles overshadow his strengths in the minds of many fans who have watched it all unfold. As Pseudo pointed out, he's the kind of upside play that the vast majority of people would be on board with if they hadn't experienced his downside up close over these last few years. I wasn't criticizing the viewpoint that he shouldn't be brought back so much as the viewpoints that he's terrible and useless. I can unemotionally agree with you and state unequivocally that his "struggles" have more than just "overshadowed his strengths" since 2009. I can also unequivocally state that he has far more repeatedly shown an ability to not just merely suck, but year-in, year-out constantly vie for the most WTF??? outings of any starting pitcher in all of baseball. You talk about falling into an emotional argument--? Face it, the guy is an emotional basket case, demonstrably uncoachable and an extreme distraction at all times to his teammates and coaching staff. As the other poster has stated, on a strictly business-decision-basis, divorced from the reality of the scorched earth he leaves in a club's bullpen, it can be argued that signing him for flipping purposes in yet another lost season in 2013 is worth rebuilding that burnt bridge with a temporary pontoon bridge. Just don't let your other young impressionable pitchers trod on that flimsy structure when it inevitably blows up with Liriano on it, replete with another 8.00 ERA midseason performance on yet another trip across the lake and back to the bullpen to "work out his mechanics".

You're going a little over the top with these "implications" you have me making. It's nothing so sinister. All I was doing was calling attention to the fact that Liriano has repeatedly shown an ability to dominate, which I believe you're unlikely to find among other pitchers available on cheap-ish one-year deals in this market. This is a guy who was a Game 1 postseason starter two years ago. You admit that your frustration with him is tied up in emotion, and that's sort of my point. I believe that his struggles overshadow his strengths in the minds of many fans who have watched it all unfold. As Pseudo pointed out, he's the kind of upside play that the vast majority of people would be on board with if they hadn't experienced his downside up close over these last few years. I wasn't criticizing the viewpoint that he shouldn't be brought back so much as the viewpoints that he's terrible and useless. It's odd to me that you would continue to push this (proven) false narrative six months later but hey, whatever floats your boat dude. Actually, I demonstrated that it was true. What say you about Duensing now?

That the Twins are actively courting there own re-treads certainly tells you how little interest even run-of-the-mill non-Twins FA SPs have in even considering the Twins as a legit landing place.

Toshi Field-- works for me

[h=2]"Thomas Field, we hardly knew ye"[/h] Hmmm, I wonder where we heard that said before... Oh Yeah- http://www.twinsdaily.com/showthread.php?4217-Field-Claimed-by-Angels The dilapidated and near league-wide joke that the state of this Twins franchise is in is writ large in the instances of multiple TD threads advocating and touting for re-signings of castoffs, retreads, too-olds, outright failures and in Field's and Wood's cases, never-weres.

Baker signed for $5.5M. If Pavano is willing to sign for half that- at $2.75M- I think he knows, Ryan knows and the fans know, that he has no shot whatsover at getting close to 200 Innings or a League Average ERA for Marquis-level money.

Really bad, as Terry Ryan's first response would be: Bill Who?

The Red Sox have two ready-to-emerge potential cornerstone SSs and are ready to deal. Why not get both of them in trade for Mauer? Problem solved for the next decade and a half.

You put yourself there. You implied that everyone was intentionally forgetting his successes to hate on him. You can look at the full picture and still be emotionally fed up and exhausted with the guy. That's why you're in that corner, not because myself or anyone else magically put you there but because you put yourself there with flimsy criticism of a perfectly valid position. I'm emotionally fed up and exhausted with him, but I'm not opposed to gambling on him. (So, in other words, I don't disagree with you) But my emotional exhaustion and frustration with him is perfectly valid even if I remember his good stretches. And it's perfectly valid for others to not want him back. You called it out like people are being unfair to him and it was pointed out to you that plenty of stats validate that opinion. You then went on a cherry-pick to back up your invalid insinuation. At this point, in my eyes, you can make a fair case to gamble on him. But you can also make a fair case to leave that bridge burnt. So implying people are leaving out information or ignoring details to be in the latter position is just nonsense. Egad, this is NN in full "I support Brian Duensing for No. 3 Starter redux mode (except when I don't support him)". Nick casted his own self in both extremes on that particular case.

The very same guy who signed Jason Marquis, that's "who". Not Chen, though, definitely Hochevar. Chen's agent is Boras and makes up to $6M, TR wouldn't touch him with a 10' pole, unless the Royals atttached most of Chen's next year salary to the end of that pole.

Thanks for the update, Seth. Question. What was the difference in player status between Field and Wood?

Haha i hear ya...who knows? Two more spots to clear via DFA/non-tender before the Winter Meetings left. Son of Sal and the other 30 day wonder, Tim Wood. Some how...Some way.....Butera will be a Twin next year. With my tongue only semi-planted-in-cheek, I'd invite DrewBie in as a non-roster Relief PItcher. Sal Jr hit 95 on the gun in his pitching gem this year.

Any team that Gardy manages can't risk one AB from a pitcher in extra innings, he'd have 6 backstops if he could get away with it. Quouth Gardy: "Cmon, that's simple stuff!"