jokin

...And the see-no-evil, $30Million minions crying out: "Damn the AF Heretic!", lie strangely silent in their midst....

EDIT: "...the bottom line...we will continue to obfuscate....(to get your) money"

So that "In Terry we Trust" thing was just satire, then, right?

This is all I've been saying, and asking admission to, since 2011. Now, 2 years have gone to waste in getting on with it, already. I'm having a hard time thinking of an example when playing both sides has ever worked in recent times.

So Harden is a starter in your scenario? Robertson, I believe has 3 options, there has to be KO-heavy lefty still available who would be more reliable. Gardy has put Duensing into the SP mix, too (not sure how much sway he has left, or where Ryan comes down on that possibility). I think Slama could have a 13.4 K/9 and a 0.52 WHIP in ST and they still wouldn't give him a shot. I liked the somewhat unexpected shot in the arm that Fien provided, kudos to Ryan on that get, hope he builds on 2012 and doesn't fall backwards. I would love to see lightining strike with Pressly, they eminently need the Twins vision of Swarzak that Swarzak, sadly, will never be. Don't you think an 8th RP is a possible likelihood with their uncertain SP situation?, their love affair with Burnett and to a lesser degree, Swarzak, almost guarantees that they both are going to be on the opening day roster. (I like your idea about changing Burnett's mindset in Roc., he seems a little lost as to his role.)

I wish I'd said that, oh wait... Let's face it, under the current ownership and management, the Twins aren't going to ever spend money on quality, higher-end, game-changing FAs, all the more important to create and/or upgrade the means to more consistently find the buried treasure from the various alternative means from which to stock the club with enough talent to compete like the Rays are forced to do. In Rule 5 in the past, they have hit on Santana and Diamond. On the international front, Sano and Kepler may or may not turn out to be big impact guys down the road. Darren Mastroianni might become one of the occasional DFAs that ends up becoming a keeper. If they aren't going to spend for proven talent, they have to redouble their efforts to identify and acquire more hidden nuggets of talent. What do they have to lose? The Twins were only one pick after Dan Uggla in 2005 in the Rule 5 draft. It is very arguable that Uggla might have put the Twins over the top more than once from 2006-10. Upgrading this area of informational knowledge is cheap compared to the 8 and 9 figure commitments and inherent risks required to secure top-end talent. Uhh, no, I'm fairly certain that stats and needs were the objective criteria; the player's performances speak for themselves.

The topic was not what the Twins should or would be able to do--- but what was the exact "crapshoot" nature of Rule 5 pitchers in general and the supposition from the poster that the Rule 5 draft is a complete waste of time as there supposedly are never useful pitching prospects that come from it. I think I showed that it is at least theoretically possible to assemble a decent staff from scraps and certainly worth some time to explore the available options thoroughly, especially with an advantageously high set of picks (your case regarding Nova proves my point, there was something there, the Padres did in fact draft him, for whatever reason, they didn't have room for roster retention, so that the Yankees would later receive the full benefits from him). Lobstein and Lara seem like no-brainers at such a low cost of kicking the tires, as did Kehrer in the AAA draft. Lobstein had a very strong year at AA and is only 23 (unlike soft-tossing Pressly who bombed out as a starter at that level and is now projected as a reliever). Regarding Josh Fields, the Twins drafted about a half a dozen college "live arms"/closers/set-up men in June in hopes of possibly converting them to hard throwing starters. Fields filled that role at Georgia so he possibly fits experimenting with as a starter for a team in as weak a situation as the Twins are in.

The offense was improved, not fixed, and now there are some major question marks, as well as holes that need to be replaced, that apparently the club is going to ignore and be content to play with the cards they're holding. I am all in favor of giving Hicks, Arcia and Benson decent shots at some significant playing time, call-up dependent on ST performances. Right now, the Twins have left themselves with Hicks as the only legitimate option as leadoff man ( as much a fan as I am, it would be hard watching the offense as it would take an inevitable, major step backwards with Dozier, Mastro, Escobar and Florimon sporting their combined MLB OBP of <.300 in the #1 spot in the order for 162 games.) I would hope that Rosario and Santana are physically 100% and gets a call-up at some point after slicing through 2 levels of minor league play. I wish they'd explore platooning Mauer at 3B, with Parmelee getting his reps at 1B and RF. Removing Butera from the offense would by itself represent a huge offensive upgrade. I hope Doumit and Willingham don't regress to their mean. I hope Morneau (finally) does.

I'd call the Mauer/Trout comparative scenario a draw. Both called up in their 4th minor league season, both 21, Mauer 284 games played, Trout 286. These are 2 very special players.

Peralta becomes expendable, why wouldn't the Orioles just take Porcello themselves in a trade for Hardy? It would be helpful to know who the Cubs have on the table in this trade, Garza?, Marmol?, Soriano? Do some more reporting, MLBTR and MASN.

Since they appear to be playing for 2015, I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and surmise that the Twins would have "rewarded him" by getting the Rule 2 avoidance call-up....in 2014.... & then sell the public that they might be pushing him at "only" the age of 22 (he would turn 23 in August of '14).

The replacement players were good gets, but they only replaced part of what left, not filling all the holes, still carried a 3rd Catcher which they said they were not going to do again, not even having a set OF on opening day, Doumit made Kubel and Cuddyer look like Gold Glovers and Willingham was only slightly better, Carroll was supposed to be a utility player who ended up getting a career-high in ABs at age 38. Regarding the SPs, come on, the Twins FO was filled with nothing but dread about the strong likelihood of the worst-case scenario regarding injury history and general suckage and to the positive, simply unexpectedly lucked out in getting Diamond to be the one guy who performed at a major league level. Most fans were aware that in the 2011-12 offseason, the Twins needed to desperately upgrade the Starters from the available Free Agents or make a trade, instead, the Twins chose to go the other way and cut payroll, in a big way... and gave you Marquis as succor for the suckers.

See above in this thread for just a few of the potential Rule 5 and DFA misses, let alone some of the signable and/or flippable FAs, most of which are misses that are clearly better than some that the Twins project to place on the 2013 roster. Rome wasn't built in a day, one man's roster spot dilemma is another man's opportunity knocking, gathering pieces on the cheap, especially in their current horrendous situation should be an ongoing process, IOW, "concentrating efforts" on 2014/15 should have started even before season-end, October 3, 2012. If they would just admit to themselves and the public that this was 1984 redux (right in the middle of a 5-year run at improvement towards mediocrity), I think the fans would accept it and the prospects would get fast-tracked by a year or so. The impression the Twins are giving, especially considering the 2 big trades w/o obvious immediate replacements for them, is Mr Subliminal Man-esque: "We're making every effort ("extra tee times") at putting a competitive ("what's that No. 1 draft pick going to cost us in 2014?") on the field (gold mine) in 2013" ("Don't wake me up until 2015 rolls around, let's see, we'll still have to pay Mauer his $23M but... only have to spend another $23M for the rest of the guys, combined....")

Good food for thought. 1) Ironic that the 2 teams both considered for contraction have gone in such different directions. The Nats were finally forced to change gears and philosophies, established new ownership and then hired aggressive, successful baseball men for their front office in Kasten, Bowden and now Rizzo. They formulated a plan to work in conjunction with the building of a new ballpark in 2008, they mostly stuck to the plan even with attendance dropping to the bottom of MLB. There have been controversies and bumps in the road, but the quick-fix FA signings in the past were over and management was always on the look-out for improvement through all phases available to them to steadily stockpile a depth of young talent. They apparently have the ownership financial backing willing to take a financial loss or two in down years, accompanied by a front office more vital and vigorous than the Twins in scouting, properly identifying and ultimately acquiring talent through draft, trades and signings...which finally worked out in making themselves legitimate contenders. There's no doubt finishing at the bottom in the late 00s gave them access to drafting top talent, but other teams were in a similar position, too. Interestingly, their management team has had vast experience working in smaller markets with low-end payrolls. Since 2005, Washington's payroll has varied between $37M at the low end and $68M at the top end until finally climbing to $92.5 in 2012. 7) There's a very strong chance that Duensing ends up in the starting rotation at some point during the season. There goes one lefty option. Perk is the closer. Most importantly, Robertson still has 3 options left, was a desperation call-up in 2012 and did very little to make a case why he is a lock at the 3rd lefty spot in 2013. And the case he HAS made thus far would only qualify him for LOOGY status, longer term.

Spot on. There's still a good chance they can pick Appel in 2013, maybe that was part of TR's "master plan".

This defense of management explains your moniker- firing the messenger, indeed. Rule 5 pitchers? Of course it's a crapshoot. Scott Diamond comes to mind. Watch out for Josh Fields in Houston. Ivan Nova would be the Twins ace right now. RA Dickey ring a bell? Those 4 would be a pretty decent rotation, throw in a Kyle Lobstein and Randy Wells as competitors for the number 5 man. Not bad for a crapshoot.

Despite johnny d's skewed and oft-mangled prose, he did present some valid points. If Ryan was willing to gamble on question-mark pitchers this year, Lara should have been a no-brainer in the 2nd round, especially with the injection of new (Latin) blood in the bullpen coaching staff. Robertson did nothing to show he automatically deserves the lefty spot. Ironic, the supposedly discredited Miami Marlins organization, chose not only 100MPH lefty Lara in the 2nd round of the Rule 5 draft (TR, the risk here was $50,000), they also drafted another high velocity KO-heavy lefty in the AAA phase of the draft ($12,000 of risk, TR and Pohlad write off lunches with a bigger tab than that). The Marlins 1st round pick? Dominican slugging OFer, Alfredo Silverio, who could have been hidden on the DL as he's coming back from TJ surgery. I like his potential over the next Komatsu/Thomas acquisition. But johnny's right, the Nats improved by losing and loading up in all phases of rebuilding a franchise. Does Ryan need more help in analyzing all of these phases?, including the International phase?, where the previous director of scouting admitted that he'd never seen Berrios pitch., but "had heard good things about him".

Whoa there! You chose to tread on dangerous comparative ground in your analysis. While the Twins acquired a definite potential talent, Alex Meyer is most certainly, at this point anyway, not the "Joe Mauer of pitching", Stephen Strasburg, he's not even Jordan Zimmerman. All 3 were drafted out of college at 21, both Zimmerman and Strasburg were dominating AA and/or AAA in their first full season schedule of minor league ball, with Strasburg bypassing A level completely. Add to that, the Twins infatuation with extraordinarily tall pitchers combined with their inability to fix or refine the difficulties in mechanics that tall throwers endure, this is far from a sure thing like Joe Mauer obviously was in 2002.

Please take that across the hallway. Let me just reiterate that there were a myriad (and still are a few) of Frasor-like RPs available that would all represent a significant upgrade to a bullpen chock full of replacement-level guys that I scratch my head over why they keep getting invited back year after year. The continued shaky nature of the Starting Rotation kind of demands more than the Twins apparent stand-pat mode for the RPs (Diamond, Correia and Worley are your 3 principal guys that you hope to get you 30 starts apiece through ~6+ innings, really?) . This just seems like common sense at Burton-lite money and shorter contract time, I still don't understand why this was such a controversial point of view.

I actually don't mind being the Joker to your Batman, we all have to find ways to entertain ourselves while most of the rest of the League and Central Division get fat. Glunn and Seth are actually the 2 voices of Rebecca of Sunnybrook Farm-esque sanity that skew the Ying more favorably to the balance point of positivity and negativity, their efforts don't go unappreciated by me. I do think for the sake of Gotham City and the surrounding TDaily territory, it might be best to bring in Superman to re-rout that Jason Frasor Black Hole Thread to another dimension in time and space.

Given the Twins miserly approach and self-esteem issues, unlikely probably isn't quite strong enough. Bedard actually had a good year going until he ran into some bad luck in the second half of the season, masking underlying stronger peripherals, still would rather take him than Correia any day. I'd still take a flyer on Francis for peanuts over Correia. Jurrjens is an injury waiting to happen as are most of the new Twins acquisitions in the same boat. If he has dropped to the level of a prove-it deal, it might be worth the risk. I have a feeling that you're being just the slight bit facetious about your comparison of the Braves and Twins training staffs.... Thanks for the update on Braden, there's a guy like Harden, perhaps even a better low-risk high reward option, that I hope the Twins carefully keep monitoring on their radar. 2 years younger and potentially a lot more tread left on the tire.

Facts are curious things, indeed. Look upthread and try to follow more closely, the guy in question admitted himself that he is mostly talking out of his posterior in an attempt to stir the pot.

When someone is perjoratively attacked (not necessarily you) with little-to-nothing to offer in substantive refutation, the facts are the best defense, even if it takes a few extra sentences of reiteration to attempt to knock some sense into the flamethrower. I'd rather discuss and flesh out the issues around a topic, but when non-substantively attacked, I find little aid in your admonishment to stop being defensive (there is no requirement on your part that you read my post as it was directed specifically in response to the attacker), the best defense against an attack is defending yourself with facts.

Miami Marlins 20 year history as a franchise, 1993-2012: 1504/1668 MN Twins 20 year history record from 1993-2012: 1545/1627 Miami World Series Championships: 2 MN Twins World Series Chamships" 0 Notwithstanding this offseason Marlin debacle, at least Miami historically in the short history of the franchise, has had enough "integrity' to build and rebuild a team from scratch and then go out, under different ownership groups, and attempt (and succeed twice) in a concerted effort at winning it all. Don't kid yourself in your kneejerk Twins FO defense, both teams are part of the same hypocrisy. Since that's the case, I'll take the 2 WS titles by the Marlins since '97.

Yes, facts are difficult things to argue against, not so hard to characterize.