jokin

Do we really want another Frasor thread?

Doubly amusing, being that he is also claiming that Maholm = Correia

And a heartfelt "thankyou" for all your efforts in that regard...

Why aren't we at least, at a minimum, talking about Kelly Johnson? Eric Chavez signed for $3M, which means Johnson should be available for less than that number, right?

Wait, when did Chone Figgins go off the market??

I gotta think the Angels have bought themselves the West pennant and set up yet another playoff choke job since 2004, this time against the Tigers. As I said before, the introduction of the Astros into the division is going to seriously skew the true drop-off of at least the Rangers, if not the A's, as well.

I agree with every one of your personnel proposals. In other words, none of it's going to happen with the current braintrust at the helm. I especially agree with your last sentence. The lack of recognition of the true value of the majority of the current mix- by both Twins management and the so-called keyboard experts is disconcerting.

The AL East is wide-open with the Toronto shot-in-the-arm, the Red Sox new look and the Yankees somewhat fading. Never count out what the Rays have waiting in the wings and the top-notch-strategic talents of Maddun, the Orioles are indeed a wild card, but not likely to repeat their 2012 numbers.

As Rocco Lampone said: "Difficult, not impossible." Brandon McCarthy signed with a mediocre team at a small premium over Correia (D-Backs). You do have to make a strong case to the agent and then overpay. All three pitchers (Dempster, Jackson and McCarthy) were unlikely, but at least signable possibilities with an aggressive approach from a Twins FO that actually believed in what they're pitching to the public. Marcum (ranked #10 by cbssports) is still gettable with said approach. Jeff Francis (ranked as No. 11 FA SP by cbssports) re-signed with the Rockies for one year at $1.5M, don't laugh, his WAR was 1.8 versus Correia's 0.9. The Twins can still go after Joe Saunders, as well. The bargain bin still contains Jurrjens and Bedard, both guys that fit the theme of having bounce-back trade value with a strong showing from April into July. Speaking of As pitchers, is anyone else considering FA Dallas Braden? He seems like a better chance at a comeback than Brandon Webb.

Defeatist (just wanted to jump in ahead of the "Speak No Evil" guys). Actually, I can see every team below .500 last year improving and/or maturing significantly enough to making a run at mediocrity, or better- in the Red Sox and Blue Jays cases. (except the Twins and Astros, of course). The Yankees are quickly becoming decrepit and after their defections in the offseason, are a couple catastrophic injuries away from a .500 record or worse. Texas is due for nearly as significant a fall, with the division rivals all stealing more wins from them over last year, but their win totals will be artificially inflated from taking 15 wins or so from the Astros. The Tigers can make a strong case for 100+ wins and running away from the rest of the league as in '84.

I just checked for you, the sky is currently black. For a guy who wasn't going to defend the Correia signing, you seem to go out of your way in defending the status quo Twins FO. You again go on the attack without much ammunition to back you up. The spade here is obvious to everyone, except the knee-jerk FO-defenders. $10M has been committed to an unflippable guy who as just as much chance to being a flop as being merely replacement level. The point was consistently made (was it just "asinine rhetoric"? you tell me) that the Twins can find 12 more potential replacement-level pitchers such as DeVries and Deduno for far less than what they've committed to Correia and still be able to afford to upgrade the bullpen with a Jason Frasor-type upgrade (sorry, I just can't stop repeating my "asinine rhetoric"). Now "just what is the color of the sky in your world"?

As we speak, I'm losing valuable sleep over the mere possblility that you're threatening to stop taking me seriously, seriously. As if your perjorative-lobbing is a formula for winning arguments. FYI, I did establish the distinction between penny-wise and cheap, have done so in the past and will continue to do so in the future. I consistently advocate for signing quality as a means to upgrade your performance on the field and ultimately through trades for teams in need of marketable talent. You have difficulty in comprehending that, only to admit much of your case was weak just down-thread. The Twins are currently sitting nearly $30M below last season (after cutting by 20% the year previously) and have yet to sign a legitimate flippable talent, meanwhile, they have failed to sigificantly address their woeful holes up the middle or up-and-down the pitching staff with sure options. Regarding the trades. I have been a vocal proponent in support of these moves, only suggesting that more might have been left on the table in the case of Span. Your perjoratives continued with my assessment of the risks taken in these 2 trades. Nothing was made up. You say 3 "legitimate" pitchers. I said, in a way apparently "asinine" to you, that the Twins traded 2/3s of their OF for 3 pitchers that still have a lot to prove and in 2 cases, quite a ways to go to say they are "legit". One of whom who has only pitched at Class A and was too old for that level where he dominated. How many dominant pitchers in Class A, who even are age-appropriate, flame out before they hit the Bigs? Quite a significant number, actually. The other minor league pitcher has stumbled at each of his last 2 promotions. He corrected himself in his 2nd trip through high A ball. Let's see what he does in New Britain. So again, you have another pitcher who has only proven mastery to A ball thus far. You've already counted these A-ball chickens before they've hatched. The Twins move these types of guys up slowly, you won't see them in 2013, perhaps they will get a look at some point in 2014, so again, it's 2015 to realistically expect them to make a significant impact in the starting rotation. Meanwhile, Bagger Vance still has question marks given his bad season, move to the AL and injury concern. For the record, I am ideologically predisposed for the powers-that-be in running my favorite team as if it's part of the 21st Century in a newly-minted showcase ballpark, not as a regime that would be just as happy in making a small fortune in contracting the team, blackmail the public into reinflating its value after contraction fell through and then taking the money to produce more bad movies and rap-music. "old nurse and twinsnorth49 like this" Of course you do.

In my best Lloyd Christmas voice: "So you're saying there's still a chance?"

I'm not sure your side does get it. Splitting hairs against convincing arguments doesn't make the status quo defenders noble, too good to play the game, while attempting to stay above the fray. The Twins offseason is deserving of constructive criticism in an attempt to moving the franchise towards showing more of a pulse in attempting to right the ship. To mix metaphors, your side is the one playing useless word "games" in defense of this moribund enterprise while Rome burns.

This is the problem with your side in this debate. Calling a spade, a spade is "whining". While your side keeps thinking that: wishing for, hoping for, even praying for, that big signing, that "something different" move is going to happen, than what they've always predictably done in the past.

Uhhh...."Thankyou"?

Except, Frasor's LOB% was over 80% in 2011 and nearly that high again in 2012. Only 2 guys on the Twins were anywhere close to that number. K's will help you do that, ie, keep those disasters waiting to happen to continue "waiting". Give me more Frasors over Swarzacks and Burnetts all day.

Yes, all is well with the organization according to the status quo fellas. If I may translate "the message" of the Daves: Invoke the higher power and admonish the other side to stop blasting them for not being more agressive in trying to improve their current trainwreck status, you louts who demand change, you guys are the "DISASTER", certainly not the Twins management and ownership! Capps redux, yes Capps (sigh) . The Twins FO has demonstrated they have absolutely no confidence that Slama will ever be a long-term contributor as a Twin, and here's a guy that has demonstrated he can consistently do in the majors what Slama does in the minors and the Twins aren't willing to take a chance for a pittance over the minimum, wth a chance to flip, besides. Harden? Harden has 13 warm-up pitches and permanent retirement written all over him (Zumaya redux).

Go ahead, continue your own rhetorical inanities in defending the status quo. You always conveniently miss the point about building for now- and for the future- as the critical component in running a successful and fanworthy franchise. You do get the fact that the odds that both May and Meyer make it above replacement level are well below 50% and are still slated for rotation-impact in 2015, right? Not that these moves are a mistake, but the Twins need to be contemplating every potentially available talent as a cost-effective move at rebuilding their woeful franchise pitching depth. When considering the 2013/14 bullpen, is it that difficult to see that most of the projected SPs are coming off of injuries and need every bit of bullpen-bolstering possible? Beyond Perkins, Burton and Fien may suffer some regression, Duensing's role is uncertain and the rest are below replacement level. Your sense about the Twins is right, in one sense, they ARE looking to be CHEAP instead of PENNY-WISE. Signing actual talent is vastly better stewardship of dollars than the Twins alternate solution (the one which you are obviously applauding with your "non-inane Rhetoric") of the Marquis-of-the-month or Maloney/Zumaya-flyer, coupled with proven mediocrity repeats like Burnett/Swarzack and mediocrity acquisitions.

I guess flailing around and unwilling to admit you were obviously wrong when presented with your own posts was missed. FWIW- Signing a dozen pitchers to minor league contracts would fulfill my proposal------ even if you just strike gold just once and get a DeVries/Deduno find you would still be better off than overpaying for the mediocrity that is Correia----- and---- still leave room left over to sign a Jason Frasor-type the BP.

Another defender of the year-after-year mediocrity that is Burnett, Swarzak, Capps, Walters, Gray.....et al, is heard from. Obviously, you are taking the extreme position, but there was money to inexpensively upgrade; solid relief pitchers are always available cheaply on one-year deals and the Twins BP would get a huge shot in the arm from the agressive signing/claiming of the Jason Frasor's of the world- plus, If Frasor matches his nearly 11 K/9 record of 2012 with a decent FIP, he is a marketable commodity to flip. The team has lost 99 and 96 games in two straight seasons- the defense was significantly gutted for 2013 and a new-and-disimproved, "revamped" pitching staff- the majority of whom qualified as mediocrities, has-beens, never-weres, raw rookies and rehabbing crap shoots. When is the time to complain, if not now? I had to chuckle at a couple of the TD writers who were fretting during the season about exposing certain players who were potentially threatened off the 40-man roster to waiver claims. In virtually every single case, no one wanted them. There is a reason why mediocrity reigns in Twinsland and even those that closely follow this mess are inured to that reality.

old nurse: "The Pohlads for mediocre talent will not overpay. " Again, you can sign a dozen Dedeunos and DeVrieses and likely get a better return on your money than Correia.

Casilla over Hardy???, that alone should mean that Gardy and Smith should have have been shipped out on the same boat after 2011. I'm not sure that Gardy necessarily had Smith wrapped around his little finger, but he sure had his other fingerprints all over many curious personnel moves, both in acquisition and distribution during the Smith regime. Smith compounded matters to the worst nth degree with one of the most one-sided trades, to the negative, in Twins history.

Yes. Do you really want to defend the status quo of the proven mediocrities, or worse, that the Twins constantly recycle? The Twins should be actively seeking every possible avenue for improvement with "major league arms" or at least possibly better than what is represented on the Twins current depth chart- face it, this is a pretty bare roster going into 2013, especially in the pitching department, and the Twins have made little effort to take advantage of their downtrodden situation.

...Tell that to old nurse...according to his theory. Jimmy Poh is infallible....and got an outright steal on mediocrity... in landing Correia for 2 years.