YourHouseIsMyHouse
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Billy Bullock banned 50 games for PED use
YourHouseIsMyHouse replied to rickyriolo's topic in Minnesota Twins Talk
I laughed at this even though I don't quite understand it. -
Let me just say I am EXTREMELY pleased with this signing. Harden was one of the players I wanted in my original plan and to get him on a minor league deal is gold. Strikeout artist with a great ceiling. Low risk, very high reward. Possible #2, but he hasn't done much in the last 3-4 years. I really love everything Terry Ryan has done except for the Correia signing. Which, by the way, looks more and more questionable after every new pitching acquisition. 5 spots and he (Kevin) might prove to be inferior to all these guys: Diamond, Hendriks, Harden, Pelfrey, Gibson, Worley, Hernandez, Hermsen, and Deduno. Maybe not the last 3, maybe yes. We'll have to see.
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13 Rizzo? Yuck. The author is a man, so what would he know?!....unless
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Sarcasm or serious?
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I thought I said average pitchers are worth the average MLB pitcher's salary? Possibly a typo, but I'm pretty sure I never said that.
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Should have posted separately It seems like too many people group Jackson together with Marcum, when Marcum is miles beyond Jackson. I really only used career ERA to show names, as in "Would you give this player that contract at any point in their career?" and I'll say the thinking was flawed on that. Some players consistently average the stats between mediocre Jackson and decent Jackson, so they aren't worth as much. I'll submit that Jackson is 10-12million range and that I've changed my mind some. The shock of 16-17 a year really did make me think people were overrating him (and that still is) so I wanted to go the other way and I went too far. That's not to say I'd ever sign Jackson for 3 years and that money since he's still extremely unpredictable. The Twins don't need him past 2014, because I think there will be much better options in the farm and free agency.
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Yes, but then another went on to justify that insane amount. Maybe just saying it was better than 7. I think 7 is closer to 10-12 than 16 is though.
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There are people that want to give him 16-17 million a season. That sounds like elite money to me.
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It's definitely the price tag that bothers me. I don't see him as an elite pitcher that's worthy of what he'll be paid. The length of contract bothers me too. He's a 4 ERA guy and allows a lot batters to get on base. I just think there are/were other options that were slightly worse, but dramatically cheaper.
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You just pointed to the league difference when he has an opposite split of what's expected. I never said the average pitcher wage was the same as the average position player wage. You use WAR in nearly every thread when evaluating a player and even said he was worth 3-4 wins. ERA is not the end all stat and neither is WAR. Jackson has been around the league a while now and he's not getting any better. His last 3 years he's posted a 4.10 ERA which is better than 4.40, but for me the changes aren't huge. Jackson has generally had a very high WHIP in addition to ERA and his SO/BB ratio has been good the past three years, but career wise unimpressive. The 23 year old Devil Ray season is a complete outlier, but other than that his career numbers have bounced around in the same inconsistent trend.
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The problem I have with all of you is you're just disregarding what I'm saying and acting stuck up. You haven't said it, but you're just hinting at me with you're smartass comments when you have provided next to nothing in facts. All I've received is snooty opinions. Pretty pathetic, that this is what I get for a conversation. Especially from one of the moderators.
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You use WAR as the sole metric, Brock. You must be so much better and advanced to use a stat that's nearly as flawed as the NBA's PER!! Why should I pay a pitcher 3X the salary when he can't even post a higher ERA than another guy. Jackson's NL ERA: 4.51 Jackson's AL ERA: 4:33 That's such a HUGE difference, huh!
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Worth debating? I'm pretty sure I've made my point with stats, while you're just relying on smug ignorance, guesses, and personal opinion to make your point. Maybe you're right. It's not worth debating when I've been called crazy, insane, etc. when it comes to overpaying a player who probably would hurt us financially for 3 years. Jackson would be wasting cap space for the bright 2014 and 2015 teams.
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Don't know, but there were young guys who were non-tendered arbitration that have better career ERA's and will sign at a fraction at Jackson's price. There are people that want to overpay Jackson by 5-10 million a year of what he's actually worth and it's ridiculous.
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I'm pretty sure the average pitcher salary isn't much more than 7 million a year.
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And yet the Twins aren't required to participate in getting ripped off.
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Let's start naming all the free agents (and former FAs) pitchers that have better career ERAs than Edwin Jackson, shall we? John Lannan, Mike Pelfrey, Jair Jurrjens, Scott Baker, Shaun Marcum, Zack Greinke, Brandon McCarthy, Joe Blanton, Erik Bedard, Jeremy Guthrie, Derek Lowe, Randy Wolf, Joe Saunders, Carlos Villanueva, Chris Young, Freddy Garcia, Kevin Millwood. There's a lot and while I wouldn't take all of these guys over Jackson, think of how much cheaper so many of these will end up being. Oh, and Liriano is tied with Edwin Jackson's career 4.40 ERA. Seriously, pretty much all pitchers besides Correia and some of the true scrubs are the only ones I could find with worse career ERA's than Edwin Jackson.
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Doug Fister, the #3 on the Tigers, was much better. Ryan Vogelsong, the Giants #3, is much better. Fister and Vogelsong are both notably cheaper too. Jackson was the #5 on the Nationals. The Rangers also had 3 pitchers better than Jackson. That's the 4 top teams.
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3-4 wins per season? Where do you see that? 2 per year for the last 3 seasons. Just makes no sense to spend that kind of money when the average pitcher can do it for much less. Scott Diamond provides what Jackson can do and at a much, much cheaper price.
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Since when is a pitcher with a 4.10 ERA worth 10+ million? True I did underball a little bit, but if you haven't realized, I don't want him. Jackson is a #4 on a good team. I wouldn't even call him a 3 as far as performance goes.
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So what do we have? Diamond Gibson Worley Correia Pelfrey Hendriks Hernandez Lots of assembly required...
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Another Jason Marquis/Kevin Correia type. I think this almost slams the door on getting Marcum or Jackson. Let's at least pursue some high end infielders with the money we have. Don't allow this be the end of our free agency!
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I'll spend money on Marcum, not this guy. 16/17 million a year? Let's put an average starting pitcher in the top 10% of player salaries. Yeah, that's not crazy.
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Last 3 years, Edwin Jackson has been an average pitcher. 100 ERA+ I wouldn't give him anything more than 7 million a year. Looking at a 3 year deal? Highest I'd go is 3yrs /19 Million Total.
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This would be the feel good story of the millenium.
