Is future of Twins Spring Training in Ft Myers suddenly in doubt?

[JB_Iowa]

How many Twins fans want to pay higher airline costs to fly to AZ? The Twins do not sell out their ST games, saw plenty of empty seats at some of the games.

 

Maybe its just my part of Iowa but for every 1 person I know that winters in Florida, 50 winter in Arizona. (Texas would be a different matter but between Florida and Arizona, its not even close). And a lot of people hit Cubs ST in AZ. Even though the Twins have a long history in Florida, I don't think that a move to Arizona would be that big a deal.

[Jim Crikket]

Yeah, JB is right. I like going to FL, but it would be no more expensive for me to go to AZ. There are plenty of discount airlines flying to AZ to keep costs down. In fact, in March it may be cheaper to fly to AZ since that's much less of a "Spring Break" destination than FL is. Demand for airline seats in March to FL is relatively high which makes those seats a bit pricey at times. May not be the case to AZ.

 

I don't really expect the Twins to leave Lee County. But sbknudson is absolutely right. They are a business and have a legally binding contract with Lee County regarding maintenance of the facility at a high level. If the County Commission decides not to honor that contract because the political winds in the area are blowing against baseball, the Twins absolutely should explore all options.

 

By the way, if Lee County fails to live up to the terms of the lease, good luck ever getting another organization to come to the area. They'll have demonstrated that their word is worthless because whoever the current Commissioners are can't be counted on to live up to the terms of contracts entered in to earlier. That is a dangerous reputation to establish with the business community.

[Thrylos]

I think even for me who live on the Northeast, AZ to Fort Myers flights are about the same price; of course one could fly to Orlando for $99 from here in a 40 year old DC9 or 727, but that is a different story.

 

I enjoy Fort Myers and have many fine memories from ST there, but I'd go to AZ in a heart beat if the Twins move there.

 

The only issue I have with AZ spring training is that clubs share facilities. I enjoy being able to spend whole days in the minor league fields in the LCSC when the Twins have away games and watch the prospect and minor leaguers play. Or even spend a couple hrs in the MiLB fields before the Twins' home games. Not sure how the situation is in AZ as far as this goes in the shared facilities.

[mlhouse]

Do you even know what you are talking about? The Twins want the taxpayers of Lee County to pay for all kinds of goodies, including $7.2 million in "Player Academy". They want $30 million in improvements on a structure that only cost $14 million ($23.9 million in current dollars) to build. There is no way that the Twins win this one based on the "maintenance" clause in the agreement.

 

There is also no way that the county gets value back to cover these costs and any economic analysis will reveal that. It is a facility that is used 17-20 times/year for Spring training. Right now, the stadium has a 7,500 seat capacity. For spring training, the total ticket revenue for 20 sold out spring training games at $30/ticket is $4.5 million. The cost, over 30 years at 4% interest of $45 million is $2.602 million. Sorry, if you think those numbers add up then you now nothing about business.

 

 

What the county should do is allow the Twins to market the naming rights for the stadium and negotiate minor improvements to the stadium at less than $10 million in cost. Even this is extreme blackmail and if the Twins want to bolt, I say good riddance. And, while it is very possible to move spring training sites it is not cost and risk free either. The existing Florida market is pretty much covered, particularly on the Gulf Coast side of the state and to improve on Hammond Stadium the Twins would need new construction. I doubt that there is a community on the Gulf that is financially interested in such a deal. There might be opportunities on the Atlantic side of the state, like the West Palm-Boca axis, but there are many reasons why the Twins are located on the Gulf Coast, particularly demographic reasons (Midwesterners flock to the Gulf, East Coast people to the Atlantic) and if the Twins chose that region that would be a huge risk. And, I doubt that they can get even close to as lucrative of a site in Arizona.

 

As a resident, I usually go to a Twins Spring Training game when family and friends come into town, and it is nice having my hometown team here. But, frankly, the experience is vastly overrated and insanely expensive to watch a part major-part minor league game. And

[Thrylos]

Do you even know what you are talking about? The Twins want the taxpayers of Lee County to pay for all kinds of goodies, including $7.2 million in "Player Academy". They want $30 million in improvements on a structure that only cost $14 million ($23.9 million in current dollars) to build. There is no way that the Twins win this one based on the "maintenance" clause in the agreement.

 

There is also no way that the county gets value back to cover these costs and any economic analysis will reveal that. It is a facility that is used 17-20 times/year for Spring training. Right now, the stadium has a 7,500 seat capacity. For spring training, the total ticket revenue for 20 sold out spring training games at $30/ticket is $4.5 million. The cost, over 30 years at 4% interest of $45 million is $2.602 million. Sorry, if you think those numbers add up then you now nothing about business.

 

 

What the county should do is allow the Twins to market the naming rights for the stadium and negotiate minor improvements to the stadium at less than $10 million in cost. Even this is extreme blackmail and if the Twins want to bolt, I say good riddance. And, while it is very possible to move spring training sites it is not cost and risk free either. The existing Florida market is pretty much covered, particularly on the Gulf Coast side of the state and to improve on Hammond Stadium the Twins would need new construction. I doubt that there is a community on the Gulf that is financially interested in such a deal. There might be opportunities on the Atlantic side of the state, like the West Palm-Boca axis, but there are many reasons why the Twins are located on the Gulf Coast, particularly demographic reasons (Midwesterners flock to the Gulf, East Coast people to the Atlantic) and if the Twins chose that region that would be a huge risk. And, I doubt that they can get even close to as lucrative of a site in Arizona.

 

As a resident, I usually go to a Twins Spring Training game when family and friends come into town, and it is nice having my hometown team here. But, frankly, the experience is vastly overrated and insanely expensive to watch a part major-part minor league game. And

 

 

Ok. Methinks that we are talking about apples and oranges. There is a high lever economic analysis in this thread suggesting that the Fort Myers area is getting a good $25-50 Million at least a year because the Twins are holding Spring Training there. That's the financial impact. Tickets are little of this, taxes are little of this. Hotel rooms, restaurant meals and miscellaneous consumption is the bulk of the money that goes to the pockets of people in Lee County. You lose that and you lose about 25% of the hotels and the restaurants in the area and about 10% of the stores. Wanna go there? Feel free.

 

Think of it as an infrastructure investment. If the county spends $10 million to add a lane to the highway do they get it back in their coffers? How about sewer and water improvement? Nope.

[Jim Crikket]

I think we've hit on the problem. If milhouse is an example of the typical local Lee County baseball fan, they clearly don't get what the Spring Training "experience" is for a significant portion of the ST visitors. We don't go down there to watch a game or two where the regulars play half the game. If that's all you see ST is about as a fan, then (a) you're cheating yourself, or ( you're a pretty casual fan. And not many casual fans shell out a grand or more to spend several days attending a MLB Spring Training. As Thrylos indicated, in addition to the games, it's about spending time on the back fields watching MLB and minor league workouts and B games and minor league games and getting a good close look not only at the current Twins, but those that are coming up through the system. That's what we visitors pump millions of dollars a year in to your local economy for.

 

As a casual fan (and barely that), I would guess you have no idea what the standard is that's been set for the "five newest ballparks" in Florida. Those "goodies" you're whining about are exactly what's going in to those other facilities. Then again, you and the rest of the anti-baseball crowd have already made it well known that you don't give a rat's behind about the county honoring their side of the existing contract/lease.

 

Thry, from what I've been told, the AZ facilities are great. Yes, two teams may share a stadium, but that's just for games. I've been told both teams have their own set of facilities for workouts and minor leagues. Essentially, we'd be able to not only wander the fields and watch Twins prospects play, but could also go catch a bit of the prospects for whichever team shared the complex with the Twins. Not a bad set up. In fact, if Lee County was smart, they'd have done something similar with the Twins and Red Sox and/or Nationals. That wouldn't address their desire to put someone in the old City of Palms ballpark, though. Then again, I can't see how they con any team in to taking the Red Sox leftovers anyway.

[mlhouse]

 

 

Ok. Methinks that we are talking about apples and oranges. There is a high lever economic analysis in this thread suggesting that the Fort Myers area is getting a good $25-50 Million at least a year because the Twins are holding Spring Training there. That's the financial impact. Tickets are little of this, taxes are little of this. Hotel rooms, restaurant meals and miscellaneous consumption is the bulk of the money that goes to the pockets of people in Lee County. You lose that and you lose about 25% of the hotels and the restaurants in the area and about 10% of the stores. Wanna go there? Feel free.

 

Think of it as an infrastructure investment. If the county spends $10 million to add a lane to the highway do they get it back in their coffers? How about sewer and water improvement? Nope.

 

Lets assume that your $50 million is correct and there is $50 million in incremental spending in Lee County because of Twins. That means that the County gets $3 million in tax revenues. That barely pays off the "investment" in 30 years. But, over that time, the Twins would have asked for another $50 million and the $20 million the county still owes on the old Red Sox facility is not being paid.

 

In reality, not all of the $50 million is incremental. Believe it or not, tourist come to Ft Myers for other things than Spring Training.

 

Next, your claim that Ft Myers would lose 25% of the hotels and restaurants and 10% of the stores is laughable. Again, lets assume the $50 million total you claim is ALL INCREMENTAL to Spring Training and would go away if the Twins moved to a different location. That is 0.4% of all taxable sales in the county. Clearly certain facilitites taht receive economic "rents" because of their location to the stadium or are directly related to the tourist trade might be impacted, but that is far from your overstated claims. And, again, that is assuming taht all of the $50 million leaves. It would not.

 

Lastly, your last comment addresses what the proper role of government should be. Local governments obviously have a role in sewer and water improvements and road construction. I would even argue that they could play some role in helping a project like improving Hammonds stadium (read above) and helping the Twins gain revenue (let them control the naming rights). But, $45 million to make these improvements is way beyond their role. If these improvements are needed, the Twins should make these improvements and charge the increases back to their customers, i.e. the Fans. If they cannot be charged back to the customers, then it clearly calls into question the true NEED for such improvements.

[Thrylos]

 

 

Ok. Methinks that we are talking about apples and oranges. There is a high lever economic analysis in this thread suggesting that the Fort Myers area is getting a good $25-50 Million at least a year because the Twins are holding Spring Training there. That's the financial impact. Tickets are little of this, taxes are little of this. Hotel rooms, restaurant meals and miscellaneous consumption is the bulk of the money that goes to the pockets of people in Lee County. You lose that and you lose about 25% of the hotels and the restaurants in the area and about 10% of the stores. Wanna go there? Feel free.

 

Think of it as an infrastructure investment. If the county spends $10 million to add a lane to the highway do they get it back in their coffers? How about sewer and water improvement? Nope.

 

Lets assume that your $50 million is correct and there is $50 million in incremental spending in Lee County because of Twins. That means that the County gets $3 million in tax revenues. That barely pays off the "investment" in 30 years. But, over that time, the Twins would have asked for another $50 million and the $20 million the county still owes on the old Red Sox facility is not being paid.

 

In reality, not all of the $50 million is incremental. Believe it or not, tourist come to Ft Myers for other things than Spring Training.

 

Next, your claim that Ft Myers would lose 25% of the hotels and restaurants and 10% of the stores is laughable. Again, lets assume the $50 million total you claim is ALL INCREMENTAL to Spring Training and would go away if the Twins moved to a different location. That is 0.4% of all taxable sales in the county. Clearly certain facilitites taht receive economic "rents" because of their location to the stadium or are directly related to the tourist trade might be impacted, but that is far from your overstated claims. And, again, that is assuming taht all of the $50 million leaves. It would not.

 

Lastly, your last comment addresses what the proper role of government should be. Local governments obviously have a role in sewer and water improvements and road construction. I would even argue that they could play some role in helping a project like improving Hammonds stadium (read above) and helping the Twins gain revenue (let them control the naming rights). But, $45 million to make these improvements is way beyond their role. If these improvements are needed, the Twins should make these improvements and charge the increases back to their customers, i.e. the Fans. If they cannot be charged back to the customers, then it clearly calls into question the true NEED for such improvements.

 

OK

let me put it this way (and this is the last effort I am going to make) :

 

Nothing incremental. And it is an annual $50 million dollar fall to your community. Not to taxes not to county coffers. Just to businesses and their employees. And some of that tickles down as taxes (whatever). And, seriously, if the Twins were to go away, about a third of the Fort Myers area Hotels will go away, a third of the restaurants, a third of the gas stations and about 10% of the rest of the businesses. And about 20-30% of the local airport flights at least, which might make them shut it down. Unemployment at like 20% over there. Not a pretty picture. Just sayin'

[mlhouse]

I think we've hit on the problem. If milhouse is an example of the typical local Lee County baseball fan, they clearly don't get what the Spring Training "experience" is for a significant portion of the ST visitors. We don't go down there to watch a game or two where the regulars play half the game. If that's all you see ST is about as a fan, then (a) you're cheating yourself, or ( you're a pretty casual fan. And not many casual fans shell out a grand or more to spend several days attending a MLB Spring Training. As Thrylos indicated, in addition to the games, it's about spending time on the back fields watching MLB and minor league workouts and B games and minor league games and getting a good close look not only at the current Twins, but those that are coming up through the system. That's what we visitors pump millions of dollars a year in to your local economy for.

 

As a casual fan (and barely that), I would guess you have no idea what the standard is that's been set for the "five newest ballparks" in Florida. Those "goodies" you're whining about are exactly what's going in to those other facilities. Then again, you and the rest of the anti-baseball crowd have already made it well known that you don't give a rat's behind about the county honoring their side of the existing contract/lease.

 

Thry, from what I've been told, the AZ facilities are great. Yes, two teams may share a stadium, but that's just for games. I've been told both teams have their own set of facilities for workouts and minor leagues. Essentially, we'd be able to not only wander the fields and watch Twins prospects play, but could also go catch a bit of the prospects for whichever team shared the complex with the Twins. Not a bad set up. In fact, if Lee County was smart, they'd have done something similar with the Twins and Red Sox and/or Nationals. That wouldn't address their desire to put someone in the old City of Palms ballpark, though. Then again, I can't see how they con any team in to taking the Red Sox leftovers anyway.

 

LOL... I am far from a casual fan. I have followed the Twins since 1969 and know almost every minor league player in the system. I highly doubt that your knowledge excedes mine. But, what you are mistaking is that 95% of the people who go to a Twins Spring Training game are casual fans. They know Joe Mauer and Justin Mourneau. Beyond that, they have very little clue who is even on the major league roster, much less when players like Wilkin Ramirez or Danny Lehmann come into the game to replace them. They are paying to watch the game in the confines of a small stadium, in the Florida sunshine, and that is the true value of the experience.

 

Next, spending time on the back fields is free (except for a parking charge if you park on the field). You can go before the game and wander around, watch BP and other activities. That is another special value of spring training, but the vast majority of the fans have no clue who they are watching. One time I was watching a batting practice group of the aforementioned Lehmann, Trevor Ploufe, Deobeson Romero, Toby Gardenhire, and David Winfree. I bet that you woudl know who all of those farmhands were, and I did too. But the vast majority of the fans at Spring Training would not.

 

Next, completley laughing at your claim that the county is not fulfilling their end of the bargain! The word is "maintained" and that leaves a lot of interpetration. Clearly though, player dorms and academies are not part of maintenance ($7.2 million the Twins want the taxpayers to pay), and most likely much of the other improvements the Twins "require" are nothing but blue sky. Having attended a game in Jet Blue Stadium, that is a comparable stadium in all aspects except cost.

 

Lastly, your snide remarks about the Red Sox left overs are simply highlighting the mistakes local government officials make with taxpayers money. It is easy to spend and give into such threats. But, now the county is left with an empty facility that they still owe $20 million and will have to maintain and make secure. This is a similar mistake.

 

Like I said, I love having the Twins here. But, Spring Training is vastly overated. If they left because they cannot fleece the taxpayers of this county $45 million, then good riddance. It will have zero impact except for the empty promises the team made and if they can find bigger suckers somewhere else, then so be it.

 

Again, if these "improvements" are not worth an extra $1 or $3 or $5 to the PERSON GOING TO THE GAME, then how is it possible that they are worth it to the taxpayer who are not at the game? You people seem to beleive these improvements are so necessary, but clearly unwilling to pay for it yourself. You want all of the value but are not willing to bear the cost. It is sad that governments have worked themselves into this type of unnecessary spending and are blackmailed by these teams

[mlhouse]

 

OK

let me put it this way (and this is the last effort I am going to make) :

 

Nothing incremental. And it is an annual $50 million dollar fall to your community. Not to taxes not to county coffers. Just to businesses and their employees. And some of that tickles down as taxes (whatever). And, seriously, if the Twins were to go away, about a third of the Fort Myers area Hotels will go away, a third of the restaurants, a third of the gas stations and about 10% of the rest of the businesses. And about 20-30% of the local airport flights at least, which might make them shut it down. Unemployment at like 20% over there. Not a pretty picture. Just sayin'

 

LOL!!!!!!!!! You are totally ignorant then and do not understand the investment issue at hand. LEE COUNTY WOULD BE THE ONE MAKING HTE INVESTMENT. Their cut on this value is the sales tax revenues they generate from this incremental revenue. To make an investment decision you look at cost versus benefit. And, their cut on the revenues would not be sufficient to cover their expenses. THERE IS NO OTHER WAY OF PUTTING IT.

Next, as I have already explained to you, $50 million is 0.4% of the annual taxable sales in this county. I am not going to say "big deal", but, really, big deal. It isn't worth investing $45 million in acquiring (we already worked that out but it seems to be over your head).

 

Next, lets look at another of your claims. You claim that 20-30% of local airport flights would be lost. In 2011 there were 7.1 million flights into RSW. You are claiming that we would lose between 1.4 and 2.1 million flights a year because we would not have 20 baseball games here in Ft Myers. Sad that anyone can believe such claims, but apparently you do. I think the airport will be just fine. Based on this obvious hyperbole, I think this calls into question pretty much everyone of your other claims (Seriously, do you really believe that 33% of the gas stations would go away because of spring training?). And, most importantly, it really calls into question your original assertion that there is $50 million in INCREMENTAL revenues because of spring training. I believe that number is grossly inflated and most (but not all) of that spending would happen anyways as the snow birds come to Ft Myers and other tourists come to Marco Island, Sanibal Island, or Ft Myers Beach.

 

And, as usual, I will add this issue. If these improvements are so necessary that the great Twins fans like yourself, who love the game, watch the BP and prospects, are not willing to pay whatever the costs associated with these improvements in increased ticket prices, THEN THESE IMPROVEMENTS ARE NOT NECESSARY AND THE TAXPAYERS SHOULD NOT PAY FOR THEM.

[Thrylos]

Again, if these "improvements" are not worth an extra $1 or $3 or $5 to the PERSON GOING TO THE GAME, then how is it possible that they are worth it to the taxpayer who are not at the game? You people seem to beleive these improvements are so necessary, but clearly unwilling to pay for it yourself. You want all of the value but are not willing to bear the cost. It is sad that governments have worked themselves into this type of unnecessary spending and are blackmailed by these teams

 

Methinks that you got it wrong. It really is worth more to the taxpayer than the person who is going to the Lee County Sports Complex (game or not). Because the the fan will go where the Twins are spending their Spring Training. The Fort Myers taxpayer's job depends on the business that he or she is working for (and I am not talking about the Twins or the Miracle) is making enough money from those fans to pay them.

[mlhouse]

Another point. There is no evidence that such improvements are needed. The Spring Trainign games are all played to a stadium played to capacity and ticket prices are relatively high. If you are a business that needs to improve, usually this is signaled by lowered demand or lower prices. Neither of these signals are evident. What this is is simply "park envy" that is so prevalent in professional sports. One team gets some bell and whistle, so every team thinks that they have to have the local taxpayers pay for this new bell and whistle.

 

If you have been to Hammond Field for a ST game or a Miracle game and did not enjoy the experience, then too bad for you. The stadium is more than adequate for its purpose.

 

Lastly, I do not completley dismiss using taxpayer money to support stadiums. Particularly in Florida which does not have state income taxes because we have tourists that pay a substantial part of our state bills. But, such support should be limited. I think giving the Twins the naming rights and incremental improvements of $10 million, maybe even $20 should be considered, particularly since the state funds 50% of the investment from tourist development money. But, that is not what the team wants because they think they can get it all.

[mlhouse]

Again, if these "improvements" are not worth an extra $1 or $3 or $5 to the PERSON GOING TO THE GAME, then how is it possible that they are worth it to the taxpayer who are not at the game? You people seem to beleive these improvements are so necessary, but clearly unwilling to pay for it yourself. You want all of the value but are not willing to bear the cost. It is sad that governments have worked themselves into this type of unnecessary spending and are blackmailed by these teams

 

Methinks that you got it wrong. It really is worth more to the taxpayer than the person who is going to the Lee County Sports Complex (game or not). Because the the fan will go where the Twins are spending their Spring Training. The Fort Myers taxpayer's job depends on the business that he or she is working for (and I am not talking about the Twins or the Miracle) is making enough money from those fans to pay them.

 

No, the JOBS will go where the Spring Training games are. If you really want to be a ticket taker at a stadium, then you can pack up your belonging and move to the city were the Twins or another team relocate. I am sure the Twins would even give you priority and maintain your seniority!!!!

 

NEXT, and this is a concept big dollar stadium advocates CANNOT GET THROUGH THEIR HEADS, VERY FEW JOBS DEPEND ON A FEW HOURS OF THE TWENTY DAYS THERE ARE SPRING TRAINING GAMES IN THE STADIUM. Sure, there are a handful of people who work at these jobs and that income may be very important for them and their families. But, this represents a 8% FTE assuming that every spring training related job works a full 8 hours on a game day(again, another doubful assumption). But on a macro-level these supposed jobs just do not justify the investment the Twins are seeking. For the lost income from these jobs, the county would probably be better off just paying them directly for their lost income rather than dumping huge money into stadium improvements.

[IdahoPilgrim]

 

Like I said, I love having the Twins here. But, Spring Training is vastly overated. If they left because they cannot fleece the taxpayers of this county $45 million, then good riddance. It will have zero impact except for the empty promises the team made and if they can find bigger suckers somewhere else, then so be it.

 

 

I think this about says it all. We are agreed that if the Twins can get a better deal elsewhere they should take it. I'm okay with that.

[Jim Crikket]

 

Like I said, I love having the Twins here. But, Spring Training is vastly overated. If they left because they cannot fleece the taxpayers of this county $45 million, then good riddance. It will have zero impact except for the empty promises the team made and if they can find bigger suckers somewhere else, then so be it.

 

 

I think this about says it all. We are agreed that if the Twins can get a better deal elsewhere they should take it. I'm okay with that.

 

It does and I agree totally. I just find it ironic that someone who advocates that Lee County violate the legally binding contractual terms of a valid lease would have the gall to refer to the Twins' "empty promises."

[MWLFan]

Can't we all agree on a couple of things here.

 

1.) mlhouse says he is a taxpaying resident of Lee County and it is his money that will be spent. He has more at stake then we do in this arguement. So I bow to that and don't care if he is right or wrong on the economics. His county, his money, his vote.

 

2.) My friends and I will drop the 3,000 or so on a spring training trip in Fort Meyers or Orlando or AZ. I like the beach option, but you know AZ has some great bars, wonderful food and good golf I am sure. I think we can find a way to spend our money if Fort Meyers doesn't want it. No biggie to me. Three hours of baseball in the day and the rest eating and well...you know. We probably spend 400 at the games and then the rest exploring the town looking for another way to expand my waistline, kill a few brain cells, (Which I may have done too much of in 50 years.) and stay in the warmth and sun. I know Vegas wouldn't work for Spring training, but that would be awesome!

 

 

3.) The use of Caps and Bolding them should be outlawed. Really. I get your passion but it comes off as screaming and makes me less likely to take it seriously.

 

I go to Beloit games and went to games in Quad Cities before that and if they end up in Cedar Rapids I will go there. I am a nomad and vagabond of the minor leagues following my Twins where ever they end up. (Just no SAL please.) So Fort Meyers is just a spot on the map to me and mlhouse has a lot more invested then do I down there.

 

I will say this, Cities all around the country vie for large conventions and trade shows to fill up their hotels and resturants for just a week. I have worked with our local Chamber on all sorts of crazy schemes and ideas to lure the almighty tourist buck. Unless you have a built in Tourist attraction, like say Gettysburg Pa, it is damn hard to get noticed. I have been to Fort Meyers and to other Gulf Coast communities. Fort Meyers is good, but is it that much better then say Pensacola or Tampa St. Pete? Not really. So a whole month of revenue could be quite a hole for some folks to replace.