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What is relevant is our current roster. Until we have made more moves, all we can do is speculate on the status quo of the organization. Until an actual move is made, there is no reason to truly believe that significant change is going to occur, whether that is an argument, opinion, fact, it doesn't matter because it's the truth. By the way, it was a french fry analogy, not a hamburger one. I would never order a hamburger either. Only cheeseburgers for this fella. I also am a bit confused on how Free Agency works now. Are we trying to sign players or order hamburgers and fries at a high school basketball game?

Who is John?

1: So we both agree, it is early. 2: For every pitcher that comes off the market, it decreases our chances of signing other pitchers. Agree? (what is better, more pitchers or less pitchers to choose from?) 3: Agreed, they are not counting on them YET. 4: Agreed. When I started this thread, I didn't intend to be the most pessimistic person of all time, I've been made out to be that though. For what it's worth this deep into the thread, my original post was meant to point out that it seems early on that we are not changing our ways. Not to defeat all optimism among fans.

Well it all depends. Is the home team's center 6'4" going up against a player that is 7'1"?Is the home team's shooting guard going to Minnesota Duluth and the other team's guard going to Duke? Your analogy made me laugh out loud. We could go back and forth with analogies all morning long. The point is, the Twins haven't done anything yet and until they do, were going to continue to be over-matched, just like your Home team.

I understand your comments. As a fan, yes I do claim to call myself that. I guess if you are able to not look at the past, and only concentrate on this off-season then more power to you. If you truly look at how things have been handled in the past, it is hard to believe things you hear about "promise." Last year we needed starting pitching and we waited til the last minute to get the bottom of the barrel guys. Either that or we got whoever would come here for the cheapest rate. I'm all for the rumors about starting pitchers, as you can look up in my past posts from 2-3 weeks ago. None of those moves have happened though. Yes, it is early. We/I/Everyone is very well aware of this. I understand that the season doesn't start tomorrow and we have until early Spring Training to form our roster. It just appears that we are walking through old footprints. Maybe I read too much into the things Terry Ryan says, maybe I just don't believe anything he says anymore. For what it's worth, I'm understanding the statements made for what they are worth. Terry has stated that he hopes Kris Johnson makes the rotation and that Duensing and Swarzak have been told to prepare to start and relieve. Those three things could mean absolutely nothing, or they could mean everything. It's up for interpretation. I'm interpreting it based on the facts that in the past 3 years, we haven't made the necessary moves to improve our roster(our record proves that), why should we believe that "this is the year."

Listen, the point of this post was to show that early in this offseason, IMO TR is appearing to back off from previous statements about signing some quality piching. Obviously it is early in the FA period. We all get that, to continually state that as the basis of an argument is a waste of everyone's time. FACT: It is early in FA. FACT: We haven't signed any "quality" pitchers. FACT: We are tied to players but no contracts have been offered(that we are aware of). FACT: TR has led us to believe that he intends to give Duensing, Johnson, Swarzak opportunities to be in our rotation in 2014. FACT: Pitchers have signed with other teams, which now gives us less options. Brock argued that it has worked in the past to wait things out(2010? signing hudson, thome late in offseason) Debating something other than "it is early, just wait and see." This horse is dead. The blessing in disguise is that it is EARLY. There are many FA pitchers we should be making offers to and finding out if we have a chance at getting them, before other teams snatch them up. If that happens then LATER in FA we can get pitchers like Ponson, Ortiz, Pelfrey. Which do you prefer?

I get that. It's been 3 straight years of 90+ losses. They have no other choice but to at least pretend they are going to sign guys. I can't back this up with facts/stats right now, but it seems like there are more quality arms available this off-season than there were last season. Perhaps that is the reason why we are being linked to actual pitching more often this year than previous seasons.

Point taken. I love the discussion and want it! I just don't want the whole basis of arguments against me being that it is early, something I stated already. It's an excuse, that's all it is. Saying that it is early and a lot of things can happen is an excuse. If you go into a bar and order a basket of fries and an hour later you are still waiting for your fries. You might ask your waitress where your fries are, right? Is she going to tell you, well sir, it's only been an hour, can you wait longer? No, she is going to tell you she will find out and get you those fries ASAP.

Basically my sentiment as well, Shane.

Truly, the only way we will be blocking our developing prospect pitchers is if we sign 4 quality pitchers long term. Corriea is off the books after 2014. I'm counting on Gibson to turn it around and for Meyer and May to make the rotation and stay in it during the next 12 months. This leaves 2 open spots in 2015. I'm praying we are adding a couple good FA pitchers on multi-year contracts to fill those holes next year as well as this year.

Nice analogy. To this point, TR is doing the same old song and dance. I realize it is early, people can stop saying that. This is the same old stuff we have heard from TR before, I'm not sure how others are not seeing it. He pretends to have interest in all of the upper tier players(below the top tier) until they are overpriced and signed. Then he has his pick of the litter at the lower tier of FA. I'm truly not being a "negative Nancy" about the Twins or Terry Ryan. I love this team. I'm just speaking the truth at the early stages of this off-season. Rocketpig- tell me what real interest is? TR saying that he likes a player? That we have made contact with agents? They have all said no contracts have been offered from Minnesota. Until there is a legitimate offer, I see no difference in the way we are going about things. Which means we will stay bad until our prospects get here.

* Notice the title of the thread - **EARLY JUDGEMENT** it is just how I see things shaking out in the beginning processes of this free agency period.

We all assumed we would get 3 starting pitchers this off-season and boy did we get them. Kris Johnson Brian Duensing Anthony Swarzak I am fine with the trade for Johnson. Just another AAAA arm at worst. I am fine with telling Duensing and Swarzak to prepare to start, it won't hurt them as relievers next year if that's what they end up doing. I just believe that the information TR is putting out there, saying things like I hope and expect guys like this to make the team/rotation in 2014. This tells me they are not planning to sign many pitchers. If they were planning on signing some FA pitchers, they wouldn't be telling quality relievers w/o options prepare to be starters and implying in the media that Johnson will be in the rotation if he does things the "Twins Way." Here is an up to date list of our starting pitching prospects for the 2014 season: Kevin Corriea* Scott Diamond Vance Worley Sam Deduno* Kyle Gibson Alex Meyer Kris Johnson Brian Duensing Anthony Swarzak Andrew Albers Trevor May Logan Darnell Liam Hendriks *Almost definitely in 5 man rotation already for 2014. This list contains 13 starting pitchers. There are only so many starting spots between MLB/AAA rosters. If they are planning on these guys all being starters, it really makes it look like we are only going to add one quality(hopefully) SP. MLB: Corriea FA Signing Deduno Gibson Diamond RP: Duensing, Swarzak- not sure how we could keep them both as starters if they don't make MLB rotation. AAA: Meyer May Darnell Albers Johnson Hendriks? This is scary 3.0 folks.

Come on man, really? I'm stating that the Twins are in the same shell. Currently i'm correct. I realize were not going to hear about it every time we offer a guy a contract, but when players are flat out saying "The Twins haven't made an offer" I tend to believe that. I expected more, not less from TR. As far as the 16 better pitchers according to your book? Who cares, (No offense, although I've never owned or read it, I've heard positives) how many players were better than Corriea in your book last year? How many of those players did we sign? IMO, when you stink, you need to be a little bit more aggressive than you need to be when you are good. I believe that is why Bill Smith was able to wait it out and sign pretty decent players towards the end of FA, for pretty reasonable dollar amounts. It just appears that we are going to settle into our roots and sign run of the mill guys, again. I hope I can eat Crow Pie on this.

Is 3 years of 90+ losses enough to get pissed off or lose hope? I'm not Mr. throw a hissy fit over here, but enough of the balogna sandies, if you aren't going to truly attempt to land good pitchers, just say it. If you are waiting for the arrival of our young studs to solve all of our problems, then fine.

Opening Statement: I hope that I am proved wrong in the near future, like tomorrow. As we all sit at our desks, some of us enjoying coffee and others enjoying a different beverage of their choice, I can't help but think to myself "when are we going to make a move?" We were told that we have nearly 40 million in cap space, according to reports. We were told straight from the horses mouth that we are going to aggressively pursue starting pitchers. At this point in time, all we have heard adds up to be rumors. Even the players we are in cahoots with haven't received offers, allegedly. If Terry Ryan and the organization were serious about making this team significantly better and adding top of the line pitching, I would've guessed that we had an offer out on a pitcher. It seemingly appears that we are once again, waiting out the market. Allowing teams to grab whichever pitchers they want, of course for a heavy asking price. While we wait and see which Marquis, Ponson or Ortiz falls to us in January. I hate to see it. I can't wait for January. I would love for the Twins to grab Garza or Nolasco quickly. Instead, we have seen Terry Ryan suddenly shift his focus to telling us how Duensing or Swarzak are destined to be good starting pitchers for us. This is the last thing I wanted to hear from Ryan. Proclamations about newly acquired Kris Johnson give us the idea that he will be in the 2014 rotation as well. I can't help but think that we are destined for more of the same for next year. I pray that we are nearing an offer to a pitcher of interest, but I'm not holding my breath. Until then, i'll continue to rest in my desk, dreaming about the day Buxton and Sano arrive.

Pretty awesome and crazy fellas. The craziest thing about all of this, is that we get to add another top 5 draft pick to this group. Also if we keep our 2nd rounder, that should be of high quality as well. Draft well this year and we will be set up for the next 5-10 years. I hope as many prospects pan out as possible.

Be a pretty wild squad if we brought back Johan, Garza, Pierzynski and then added Nolasco and Arroyo. I'd be frickin' excited for next year. Unfortunately, we'll likely only end up with one of the players. Just for fun: Garza (4 years 55 million) 13.75 Nolasco (4 years 55 million) 13.75 Arroyo (2 years 19 million) 9.5 Pierzynski (1 year 6 million) 6 Santana (1 year for incentives) 3 =46 million for 2014 =35 million for 2015 =27.5 million for 2016 =27.5 million for 2017

We have already been linked to Johan, now it appears we are heating on Matt Garza, perhaps. http://www.1500espn.com/sportswire/Matt_Garza_has_done_his_homework_and_is_open_to_a_reunion_with_Twins111513

Screw it, you convinced me. Let's start him.

Who pissed off Jack?

Since when? I kid, I kid.

A rotation of: Nolasco Arroyo Corriea Diamond/Deduno Gibson Would drastically improve our peripherals. I'm hoping those two are added and then we wait out the market for a bit and then snag someone who slips through the cracks for a "reduced deal."

First of all. I don't think anyone thinks Nolasco is the 'end all, save the franchise' pitcher. Now with that being said, He would instantly become our best pitcher. I am at the point where any money spent on FA is progress. It means we are understanding that FA is not the devil. It means TR is finally addressing some of this organizations shortcomings. It speaks for the present and for the future. Regardless of what type of product is put on the field for next year, I am much more confident in this organization going forward if they are willing to sign at least two guys to contracts larger than Willingham's. Now I hope they are good players going forward, but we are talking about freaking baby steps here.

I'm not arguing on Fryer's strong defense, just asking, but where is this knowledge coming from on his defense?