ThePuck

Are you ****ing kidding me, Dave? I wanted Hardy around because he's not goddamned awful and he plays shortstop (very well). Given the Twins history of middle infielders, who didn't want that? Hardy's OBP is not optimal but when your other options include All-Stars like (fill in name of god-awful Twins middle infielder here), I'd take the corpse of Honus Wagner over those guys. But when given an option, I'll always take the guy who makes less outs over the guy who can't get on base. Over the course of a season, that's the best way to win baseball games. I'm also the guy that constantly repeats "the most important thing in baseball is not getting out". Not to mention, even injured, Hardy had the best UZR/150 of any shortstop in his one year with us. Defense.

So when I mentioned his negative defensive runs saved in 2010 and 2011, I was just using one year of data? That's Interesting. On top of that, are you or aren't you the one who said all defensive metrics show he's an above average defender? A combined UZR of .8 over the last three years and an average of -10 defensive runs saved over the last three years show he's above average? I already mentioned that I prefer to use UZR, and also pointed out that within the last 3 years Span had a negative RS as well. Does that mean he is below average? Call him what you want, the fact is calling Span "Above Average" while dismissing Upton as "Below Average" was incorrect as it was stating that one player is significantly better defensively, when that just isn't the case. On the other side of things, I show how Upton is significantly more valuable as a runner and a hitter, and you just scoff and make snarky "well chicks dig the long ball derp" quips while ignoring that fact that he has outperformed him quite a bit OPS and OPS+ wise, and as far as base path value goes? It's not even close. Oh, and this doesn't even take into fact that Span has some health questions moving forward. Oh, you prefer to use UZR...so you prefer to use stats that help your debate and discard those that don't. Even though Fangraph does both stats, only one has merit? UZR doesn't really help you though. Not for the last three years. And Span DOES NOT have a negative DRS over the last three years in CF. He had 20 this year, 9 in 2011 (while only playing half a season, BTW) and a -5 in 2010. That's not a negative, that's a big positive. And don't talk to me about snarky comments...you began our debate saying I didn't know baseball cause you didn't agree with my opinion. Doesn't get much snarkier than that. Or is it only okay when you do it?

I'm not going to debate your "TF is tough on lefties" because like I stated before, Span isn't your typical left handed batter. As far as you calling him a really unlucky dude in 2010 you may be only partiall correct. Couldn't it be argued that his BABIP in 2009 (.353) was in fact pretty "lucky"? Especially since he hasn't come within 35 pts of that number since then? Oh, absolutely. His 2009 BABIP was extremely lucky. Six of one, half dozen of the other, which is why I initially referenced his 2012 BABIP, which was still .020 higher than 2010. If you're allowed to use Span's 2010 against him, it's only fair to come down hard on Upton for his 2012, where he didn't even get on base 30% of the time. Unless you're knocking 40 balls out of the park, that's awful. and his BA under .250 and his 169Ks

So when I mentioned the Fielding Bible award voters (who judge defenders for a living) not giving him a vote and his negative defensive runs saved in 2010 and 2011, I was just using one year of data...and ONLY UZR? That's Interesting. Maybe one needs to go back and look at that post. On top of that, are you or aren't you the one who said all defensive metrics show he's an above average defender? A combined UZR of .8 over the last three years and an average of -10 defensive runs saved over the last three years show he's above average?

I doubt the DL part, I don't think a player getting a concussion makes him injury prone, but I'm okay with the trade. It's a move for the future. I hope all other trades, if there are any more, go the same route.

Yeah, this was never about the contracts as I never contended that part. But way to try to grossly skew the argument at the last second after I pointed out how Upton has been the superior player the past 3 years. No, I was asking him a different question..a different question free of our debate... But, again, I'd still take Span...I've already said that more than once. I believe he's the better overall player. I don't back down from that.

You seem to keep moving your endpoints to suit you. You wanted to use 5 years for defensive stats b/c one year has a sample size issue but most stat guys say use three years for defensive stats. When 1 or 3 years are used, Span is the better defensive player and it isn't particularly close. So you pick 5 which coincides with Upton's best years and Span's worst and also the years defensive stats at the Dome were sorta fuzzy. And that way you get to ignore the downward trend Upton has shown in the defensive stats. For offense, you won't use 5 years b/c they include Span's best years, so we'll chop it to three, which include Span's injury affected years. But if we use one year or a 5 year time period, we see the offensive differences are basically nil. And all this was after you used hyperbole to support your nonsense claim that according to all stats, Upton was signficantly better defensively. You wonder why people are having trouble with your posts? Over the next three years, when considering the overall player ability and the contracts, who do you think will be more valuable to his club? Upton or Span?

So now we are moving this argument all the way down to a 2nd half argument? Well in the 2nd half last year Upton improved quite a bit as well (actually quite a bit more then Span) .819 OPS vs .783, and Upton upped his by 140 points vs Spans 80 points (not that any of this really has anything to do with anything) You bring up WAR, which is very flawed anyways, but it should be noted that Upton posted a 4.1 and 4.1 in 2010/2011 while Span posted a 2.6 and 2.2. So over those three years Upton had a WAR almost 3 wins total higher then Span during that time. Additionally, again you say below average CF and you are wrong. yeah, you're right...Upton is much better than Span...ridiculous to think otherwise. Also ridiculous to think he's a below average defender when the metrics over the last three years shows all his negative defensive runs saved, his UZR a whopping combined .8 over the last three years ( well in the negative this year) and the Fielding Bible award voters completely leaving his name off their ballots the last two years. I'm the one who is wrong as to the kind of defender he is now. I'm done, you've completely turned me around...you're right, I clearly know very little about baseball..

Span had a nice bounce back year last year but only started to get strong in the 2nd half. I believe a full heathy Span, which I believe he will be next year after seein his 2nd half the last season. Span's WAR was 3.9, Upton's was 3.3. Seems close when you see it that way. Then when you look at qualifying players and see Span tied for 43rd while Upton is tied for 61, it's a little bit different. Upton hits HRs...that's his positive. Very low BA, low OBP, LOTS of Ks, below average defensive CF. But he's flashy...that and his 20Hr power gets him a big contract

Well, I just had someone say I don't know much about baseball cause I posted an opinion he disagreed with so, yeah, there are people like that here.

Exactly...

The fact is Upton has outperformed him significantly over the last 3 years. Poll 30 GMs in the league and ask them who a btter player is and you will get 30 Upton answers. If Span was considered the better player you would have seen a lot more rumors in regards to the trade and a lot larger names being thrown around. Jesus Christ, Dave. I said that if you factor in injuries, the pendulum swings heavily into Upton's favor. Or did you also miss the sentence that read " It's hard to separate the player from the injuries in this case." We were talking hypotheticals, not actual reality. In reality, Span's injury history is a massive drag on his value. *headdesk* He was healthy in 2010 yet posted an OPS about a 100 points less, you write it off as pretty miserable overall, yet still say that taking injuries out of it you'd prefer Span. I was showing you that even when healthy Upton is outperforming him. You mean his 2nd full season? Yeah, it's unusual to see a player drop some in his second full season...seems they have a name for that...

I see his positive UZR, which is what I use along with the "eye test". I'm not a huge fan of DRS, but since we are on that subject game keep in mind that prior to Revere hoping in the OF along with Span, Span was posting negative defensive runs saved as well (2010 season and before) and actually was posting less OOZ then Upton as well. What does this all tell us? Upton and Span are very similar, so you can't call one "above average" while dismissing the other as "below average" His positive UZR over the last three years? barely...ever so slightly...what .8? Awesome...truly well above average Nice to see you dismiss the defensive runs saved stat...since it doesn't follow your opinion. In any event, overall player ability, I take Span...especially when considering contract. Keep thinking I don't know baseball cause of that opinion though....

The fact is Upton has outperformed him significantly over the last 3 years. Poll 30 GMs in the league and ask them who a btter player is and you will get 30 Upton answers. If Span was considered the better player you would have seen a lot more rumors in regards to the trade and a lot larger names being thrown around. Something to do with Span's concussion, I imagine...Upton is a below average defensive CF, he strikes out a ton and he hasn't hit over .245 in the last 4 seasons. But chicks dig the long ball...

Minus the injuries, I'd rather have Span, honestly. They both OPS around the same but Span gets more of that OPS from OBP. Of course, injury concerns slant that back into Upton's favor quite a bit. First off, that's not really accurate: Spans last three years: .679 .678 .738 OBP= .331 .328 .342 Uptons last three years: .745 .759 .752 BP=.322 .331 .298 Keep in mind that also Upton was playing in Tampa Bay which was quite a large pitchers park in 2012 as well as the rest of its history vs Target field that was neutral in 2012 and close to neutral overall. Upton also will give you 30-40 SB a year vs Span who will give you 20-25 at most along with a ton of pick offs. Lastly, give me the guy that has 25+ HR power (will hit for 30+ next year if healthy) over the guy who has 5 HR power. Defensively all things considered (Park, other guys sharing the OF) they are basically a wash, maybe a slight advantage to Span. IMO its not really close if you take money out of the equation, with or without injuries. Except that Span's line was crushed in 2011 by injuries and his 2010 was just pretty miserable overall. 2012 is the first season since the Metrodome where he looked like the Span of old. It's hard to separate the player from the injuries in this case. Exactly. Span was ranked as the 3rd best defensive CF in baseball this year and Upton was right near the bottom...

Dude, Upton is a significantly better player then Span, just take a look at the upside and his last 3 years of offensive production vs Span. Also, not sure where you are getting this Upton is below average defensively thing. Upton actually rates as above average according to ever defensive metric out there. Also, Upton doesn't have the injury concerns Span has and has shown significant power spikes as he has started to get close to his peak ages. Is Span a better bargain at his deal? Yeah, and I would take Span at his contract over Upton. But to say straight up (money not an issue) that you would take Span over Upton is disingenuous, or else you don't follow baseball much. Upton rates as above average according to every defensvie metric out there? Like his -3.2 UZR/150 this last season? Or maybe his -4 defensive runs saved this last season? Or maybe him being ranked 19 out of 20 qualifying CFs with plays made outside the zone? He was so bad in fact, that he got not one singular vote for the fielding bible award for CFs, when 24 other CFs did? Then there was the -7 defensive runs saved in CF last year and -19 defensive runs saved in CF the year before. Are those defensive metrics you're referring to?? He also had a BA in the .240s last year, an OBP below .300 and his 169Ks. GREAT offensive numbers. Did you miss all that when drooling over the HR and SBs (which I mentioned, BTW) Don't talk to me about not following baseball too much, you look silly...especially when you ay Upton was an above average defensive CF Well you are the one who is using one year's worth of defensive stats. Anyone that understands how defensive advanced metrics works knows that it is better to take a longer look type approach to it rather then just one year at a time. In 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010 and 2011 Upton rated as above average in total fielding and UZR. So basically we have 5 years that say above average and 1 year below average....hmm....I wonder what conclusions we can draw from that. Keep sticking to the smaller picture though! Yeah, they say look at the last three years...did you see the negative defensive runs saved for 2010 and 2011?

Dude, Upton is a significantly better player then Span, just take a look at the upside and his last 3 years of offensive production vs Span. Also, not sure where you are getting this Upton is below average defensively thing. Upton actually rates as above average according to ever defensive metric out there. Also, Upton doesn't have the injury concerns Span has and has shown significant power spikes as he has started to get close to his peak ages. Is Span a better bargain at his deal? Yeah, and I would take Span at his contract over Upton. But to say straight up (money not an issue) that you would take Span over Upton is disingenuous, or else you don't follow baseball much. Upton rates as above average according to every defensvie metric out there? Like his -3.2 UZR/150 this last season? Or maybe his -4 defensive runs saved this last season? Or maybe him being ranked 19 out of 20 qualifying CFs with plays made outside the zone? Or his negative dWAR? Are those defensive metrics you're referring to? He was so bad in fact, that he got not one singular vote for the fielding bible award for CFs, when 24 other CFs did. And you say he's 'above average' Then there was the -7 defensive runs saved in CF last year and -19 defensive runs saved in CF the year before. He also had a BA in the .240s last year, an OBP below .300 and his 169Ks. GREAT offensive numbers. Did you miss all that when drooling over the HR and SBs (which I mentioned, BTW) Don't talk to me about not following baseball too much, you look silly...especially when you ay Upton was an above average defensive CF

Nice post

Upton is a below average defensive CF who hits some HRs and steals some bases but he strikes out a ton and has trouble getting on base or hitting for average. If given a choice between Span and Upton straight up, I'd take Span...when considering what they'll both be paid the next three seasons, it's Span in a freakin landslide.

Revere's WAR is helped by being compared to RFs...he's a fine defender, but IMO, we can't say he's a better defensive CF than Span is..not yet

Revere got promoted early due to injury...to Span. Span got promoted late because even though he beat out Gomez for the recently vacated CF spot, he was sent back to the minors. Oh and we had a pretty good CF in Span's way before that...Hunter I think his name was...with Cuddyer and Kubel on the team too. Also, judging players by when the TWINS promote players, well...

For the record, I'm a big Span fan. I enjoyed his low key style of play...his top notch defense that didn't need to be flashy cause he read the ball of the bat so well. I don't think a player NEEDS to be flashy to be a great defender. Span, like Hardy, are just understated great defensive players. Now, the trade...hate to see him go...but this trade is for 2015 and beyond. If there are any more trades, I hope they are the same way. Stick to a plan and go for it. Hoping Meyer works out.

Fielding Bible voters listed Span as the 3rd best defensive CF in baseball. Defensive metrics of qualifying CFs back that up. Revere has not shown he is a better defensive CENTER FIELDER than Span is. Saying he is much better IN CF...there is nothing backing that up. Now, Revere did rate as a very good RF...definitely...even with that, um, arm...but that's compared to RFs...

I don't think he's done enough to deserve it myself...

4? Meyers will be up in 3 or less, imo. They also freed up money, that they can now use to sign two legit pitchers, instead of one. Let's see what they do with the money before totally giving up on this year.... You assume the money will be spent...we dropped 18M off 2011 payroll last year...didn't spend it