TheLeviathan

So we've gone from big talk of being a .500+ team next year with things going right to defending an offseason that was pretty much 100% rebuilding? Some of you have to get off the defense of the team a little bit here. One can criticize and still be a supportive fan. This team scrooged on a couple players (Baker's option year, Marcum thus far, even Blanton) and as a result this team is clearly spinning the wheels. I'll still pay attention, but it's fair to criticize a team that was forward in declaring it's intent to improve that did the exact opposite with significant financial room to play with.

The only thing I don't like about this is that it wasn't BYTO born. Otherwise.....christ that was brilliant.

I think, if you're looking for positives, you should look to things that speak to the long-term. Like getting to see Aaron Hicks, a full season of Parmalee, Kyle Gibson, Worley, etc. Any hope for vast improvements on this team overlooks the fact that things didn't go catastrophically wrong last year. They just weren't very good and haven't improved much (if at all) this offseason.

I didn't say you did.....you just continue to rush to attack anyone that posts anything along the lines of "we should use this ignorance to help further the cause." I won't presume to say why you continue to do that. But you are. Then, you make it a point to say that anyone calling for more decent rhetoric on it is crowning the king. As if, any discussion of decency or tact should be cast aside as "petty" if our moral impulses are strong enough. Again, I think you'd fall on the other side of that argument in many, many cases. My tact here is meaningless. The tact on gay rights nationally is incredibly meaningful because people I care about are affected.

Well, that isn't what Torii said either. He's being interpreted much more harshly than the actual content of his quotes reveal. But I would agree that's hismessage, just like many of the message on here are meant to be pretty similar. I never said any such thing about you. I responded to Brock and you took my response and made into something it absolutely wasn't. He was exposed already by a journalist. What is anyone else accomplishing more than this other than walking a fine line to hating Torii Hunter and being no better than his ignorant opinion?

I distorted nothing, you're once again struggling to keep the context with remarks. I'm not saying Torii should be treated with compassion, I'm saying your primary motivation should be to get him to say gay people's plight with compassion. You don't get that with the tact you continually keep defending and/or attacking a reasonable, well-stated tact. Meanwhile, justifying indecency in the name of your personal moral opinions works for many other areas and moral opinions I highly doubt you'd share.

No, it's not. Again, here is Brock's quote: I responded specifically to that line. And I stated that some of the comments in this thread were crossing the line from the first example to being exactly like the second. You jumping to equate that with physical violence and murder is wholly unwarranted and unfair. My comments were nothing of the sort and you know that. That was the true strawman. Now let's move on. Well, at least you told me what that "something" is I'm supposed to be doing finally. Here's the truth, you wouldn't accept anything here as being hateful or out of line because you have so much personal stake that you'd never equate any amount of ugly no matter how equal it may be. So that entire setup is ridiculous, I won't indulge it. What I will say is this: I want gay people to have equal rights in every way. And I want that to be a permanent social change. The great thing about the Civil Rights movement is that it made dramatic changes to our culture and they have stood, unchallenged!, every since. Has it swayed every mind? Of course not, but so much compassion and understanding was drummed up in that movement that no political shifts or social conflict has so much as challenged it to this day. I want the same for the gay community. Take women's rights as an example - every four years the individual acting as president potentially threatens those rights. Why? Because the social change that got them there in the first place was forced in. (Don't take this point any further than it is intended) The tact was inappropriate and we're still suffering through that battle today. Martin Luther King was one of our greatest citizens because he saw the need to change hearts before documents or the documents would be meaningless. Getting in the ugly pit with anti-gay people doesn't win anyone, it only keeps a deeply driven animosity festering below the surface. Yes, Torii's feet should be held to the fire. He should be told he is ignorant and behind the times. But hate him? Talk like Dave has, for example? Not helpful. Not going to achieve what you and I agree on for the future. My point is as simple as that.

Funny. I dont understand why so many people abandon their liberal principles to turn ugly on this subject. What you just said justifies every ugly act by anti-abortion people outside of clinics. Every amoral act in the "war on terror" and on and on. It is silly. Compassion, as you lefties so often tell us, wins far more hearts than ugly or hate. It wont win them all and no one is naively arguing otherwise.

So you missed the quote by Brock and myself again? I said the hate speech at Torii sounds awfully similar in ugly tone. You somehow brought violence into that. That looney take is all you. There is plenty of evidence in thesr 9 pages of the ugly I was actually talking about.

When did I say they were equal? Go back and read what you misinterpreted, flipped out about,, and proceeded to strawman on. I never said the ugly was equal. But hate and vitriole isnt right just because it isnt as extreme.

So you propose what exactly? You have twice flipped your lid with these rants....so what is "something" you propose? I haven't strawmanned anything. The key for why tact is crucial is because change endures out of compassion not force. You won't change all minds with reason and dialogue but force and ugliness in retaliation guarantees none are changed.

Which I'm absolutely ok with. But here's how message boards work, you can't take my reply to one person and project it to yourself. It's a reponse to that person. So, in fact, you are employing a strawman because I'm not talking to you. And for the record - this is to Fro before you prop another strawman - the middle of the road is not about view. It's about tact. There is a gigantic difference. The true strawman being propagated here is that anyone that says "He's an idiot, but he's allowed to be an idiot" is somehow saying he's not an idiot. That isn't the case at all. For me the response to this is where balance is necessary. His view itself, in my opinion, is unquestionably, completely stupid. But that doesn't mean my response has to take a similar tone and tact. This shouldn't be hard to understand.

That is the crazy hypocrisy of this often-times. One of the things I appreciate most about liberals is what they abandon first when the subject matter gets tough.

There is no reasonable middle ground? See, I have problem taking these people serious (liberals to be specific) because it is such rampant hypocrisy. Either society is free (for good and bad) or it isn't and there is room for moral condemnation, but normally they only like to play by the same rules when it suits their purpose. Personally, I feel Torii has a right to announce his stupidity. A very, very valuable right. And we have every right to thrash his opinion for the stupitidy it is. Hell, hold it up and say "look how dumb this is" to push people to make better decisions about their ethical positions. But you can't fix racism and bigotry without being able to say there are rights and wrongs and we can have a discussion about that. A logical, practical discussion. That comes with negatives (like, sometimes your opinion is wrong, no matter how strongly you feel about it) but it's worth it because the right way will eventually prevail.

I don't think the conversation was at any such point when one poster decided to jump it there. As a justification to end the discussion, I agree it's garbage. But often the same camp that is quick to rush to "he can't say that!" is the same one that usually says "hey...to each their own!"

Two wrongs make a right? So we should bully bigots and that will set the world right? This is precisely my problem in a nut-shell. Well done, intended or not.

One could argue the latter is exactly what is happening to "people like Torii" in the tone of some of the comments here. It's a reflection of something I worry about in society - how ugly the pro-gay movement is in regards to the anti-gay people. Now, in my opinion, anti-gay opinions have no moral value and are ugly in and of themselves, but I fail to see how reciprocating that ugly does anyone any good.

Normally, no it wouldn't need to be pointed out. Except that someone said it was "garbage" that he had a right to think that way. So yeah, then it did need to be pointed out. But thanks for reading.

Um, football regularly has significant turnover like we saw this year with the Vikes. Baseball not so much.

He already said that too about fake blacks.....that story went aside pretty quickly too. I get people's rush to defend homosexual men and women right now because it is a highly sensitive issue, but I think it's causing some lost perspective. He has a right to be a racist, homophobic douchebag. He's also not skating away with this any more or less than he did when he made his racist comments.

I think you're letting your personal views influence the section in bold. I'm not even sure capital T truth applies to judgements about sexuality, that's a bizarre stance. In any case, I agree that it shouldn't tell us to stop pushing against hate-filled opinions. But I get ruffled when we try to silence negative opinions by matching their hate with our own rather than convincing them differently. I despise his opinion too and we should aggressively fight that opinion. But fighting hate with hate doesn't seem too "capital T" inspired either. Except that he has made racists comments and didn't face all that much trouble then either.

People have a right to think like racists too. What's your point?

Well....it is America. He does have a right to be a douchebag. And you have a right to call him a douchebag for it. That isn't a defense of Torii....it's the truth. Nothing garbage about it. I completely disagree with his ignorant opinion, but he has a right to have it. Just like you do yours.

Ponder certainly made some huge throws today, have to tip my hat to his performance. He helped us win today, which is what we need him to do.

I actually think we have a better chance to beat Atlanta. But I've been down on this team all year, maybe I'll just stay pessimistic.