jokin

Even if all the points are demonstrably valid? We just got done watching the Orioles and Rays play intense September baseball. I remember that feeling and it was every year but one under Gardys watch. How anyone can simply dismiss that and take it for granted is beyond me. So the playoffs haven't worked out. They usually didn't work out for Bobby Cox either. Playoff record Smeckord. A playoff record is the very definition of small sample size. I don't dismiss it and enjoyed it when it occurred, winning all those AAAA championships was better, for example, than winning the MIAC championship, for sure. Unfortunately, it is demonstrable that Mr. Regular Season Manager never grew into a better manager for postseason baseball, or for that matter, a manager capable of raising his team's competitive level to AL Eastern Division Standards.

This. I'm in the "it's time for a change" camp. I like Gardy, I think he's a very good manager. And given that he's finished the top 3 in MOTY voting 7 times, clearly I'm not alone. I'm not saying he's a great manager or deserves to be enshrined in Cooperstown, you can question some things he does like you could with any manager. I just don't understand the "Gardy sucks" crowd. If that's how you conceptualize my take, you are mistaken, my friend. I attend the same camp that you do, although it's demonstrable that Gardy has been a bedwetter at the postseason camp throughout his career, too.

In reverse order: TK has 2 rings and a great post season record. Maddon has an excellent post-season record. Showalter is as good as Gardy The Vikings were cheated big time at that game. Lots of non-calls including the bounty calls. If they called that personal foul dirty hit against Favre game was over. But the powers of being definitely had a Katrina-driven agenda. Again, I said that Gardy's record is worse than Childress and they got totally different treatment by the fan base. Regular season records are a dead heat (so Gardy is about as great as Childress, I give you that) but the postseason/playoff records are not. Gardy is light years worse. And this is a fact. Winning percentages between football and baseball are apples and oranges. A great baseball team might win 60% of their games (~100 wins) but win 60% (10-6) of your games in football and you aren't even guaranteed to go to the playoffs. Great teams in football win 80%-90% of their games. Huh ?!? This is a partly true, but in the end, still a specious argument, is the discussion even about "great teams"? Even by your criteria, Gardenhire has never had a "great team" (closest was .593 in 06), he's 0/11, while Childress had one, making him 1/5. These are just some of many playoff teams and/or division champs over the years thanks to the ridiculous priority placed on geographical division alignments in the "League of Parity", the NFL: 78 Vikings 8-7-1 80 Vikings 9-7 04 Vikings 8-8 04 Rams 8-8 10 Seahawks 7-9 (division winners!) 04 Seahawks 9-7 99 Seahawks 9-7 99 Dolphins 9-7 95 Dolphins 9-7 (These are just a few of the countless 9-7 playoff/div. champ teams) 09 Jets 9-7 09 Ravens 9-7 91 Jets 8-8 90 Saints 8-8 85 Browns 8-8 82 Browns 4-5 82 Lions 4-5 11 Cincy 9-7 11 Broncos 8-8 08 Chargers 8-8 06 Giants 8-8 There are mediocre teams that make the playoffs in MLB as well- who would dispute that the inbalanced schedule has skewed Gardy's record significantly better than it should be?, his dreadful performance against the Eastern Division is well documented. He made his career mark feasting on the dregs of the AL and just about every inter-division series against the clearly inferior NL. This has clearly been more than "good enough" for the ownership, which fought a pitched battle to commit club suicide- leave the state or contract itself out of existence- from 2001 to 2007. It's also "good enough" for the fans, just happy to still have a team in town with a laconic, unflashy, but seemingly successful, manager. Childress, though on the surface similar in delivery to Gardenhire, by dint of his aloof and secretive ways and anal personality, was never able to endear himself in Minnesota. In the end, the point of discussion is about a body of work over a career and the final net record, not single season "great teams". Both compiled records in some of the weaker-to-mediocre divisions in their respective leagues. Gardy gets the edge for making the playoffs, watered down as these accomplishments are, 6/11 years, Childress made it in 2/5 years. As far as postseason goes, Gardy and Childress come up short yet again, as they both were able to make it past the first round of the playoffs just once. Curiously though, Gardy did it in his first year, inheriting a group of up-and-comers, and failed to learn and build from the experience- as we all are well aware, he has been a playoff flopper ever since, even with "better" teams on paper, and losing embarrassingly meekly each time. Wow did you miss the point of my post. Let me try this again without #'s since that seems to have diverted you from the point. Football and baseball are very different sports. A .525 winning percentage in football is not the same as a .525 winning percentage in football from a success stand point. So like I said in my last post...apples and oranges. Congrats for veering conveniently past my points.

well... they are 4-5 OF and 2 Cs in most rosters, so I really see no issues. Also, at this point there are probably 8-10 OFs ahead of him in the minors (let's say the beginning of 2013 and I am not counting the MiLB FAs that Rantz will sign). There are probably 8-10 Cs ahead of him as well. So the numbers make me think that he has higher likelihood in advancing as an OF plus you have to add another year to learn another position as a C. That is academic. Pettersen is 170 lbs with a diving weight belt on Dereck Rodriguez is also close to 150. Stick arms stick legs. Nothing like Pudge and Pudge was closer to 225 than 205... Not to be too argumentative here. You are trying to compare Rodriguez at age 40 to Pettersen at age 24. I would wager that Pudge at 24 weighed closer to Pettersen at age 24 than to Pudge at age 40. Derrick is currently listed at 160 and his genetic background suggests he'll likely end up with at least a somewhat similar profile to his father's. Furthermore, here is an article from the NY Times in 2005: http://www.nytimes.com/2005/05/25/sports/baseball/25pudge.html A pull quote from it: "(Last night, he said he weighed 187 pounds, compared with 215 last season.)" Besides the references and allegations to prior steroid use, Pudge did drop the weight starting in 2005, for his mid-to-late 30s to prolong his career, and returned to his more natural body-type. I don't think it's a stretch to suggest that Derreck Rodriguez could get to the majors faster with the Twins by considering the catcher option (appears to be a winning strategy for Hermann). Passing the relatively non-descript list of 8-10 catchers in the Twins system is not much of a hurdle for a superior athlete, even one who is still super-skinny. And he does have a HOF catcher for a Dad with whom he can consult on his development. Time to hit the weights Derreck, to get on a faster track to the majors- or look to be traded to another team needing an OF sooner than the Twins will be doing so. He has a better chance of pitching then catching.... Given who will likely begin to be manning the Twins OF starting around 2014-5, he has a better chance of pitching than playing OF (at least for the Twins).

--- You need starting pitching to win in the posteason. I think the lack of playoff success is a lot more attributable to the fact that we were running out the likes of Brian Duensing and Nick Blackburn to face stacked Yankee lineups in October than it is to Gardy's "failure to build and learn." (When Brucy Bochy won his first World Series in 15 years of managing with the Giants in 2010, was that because of his ability to "build and learn" from his previous failures? Or you think maybe that pitching staff had a little something to do with it.) And I think you're point about ownership is a fair one. At least in the '00s, before Target field, they were content with having a team that competes but never truly contends. Those teams were built to beat the Royals in July. They were not built to beat the Yankees in October. But that's more a reflection of ownership than of Gardy. You do remember the #2 ranked in pitching 2006 team with Santana, Radke, Nathan, Garza, Reyes, Rincon and Liriano, right? ---You do remember that by the time the postseason rolled around, Liriano was injured and unable to pitch, Radke's arm was barely attached to his body, and Garza had started only 9 major league games, going 3-6 with a 5.76 ERA, right? And you surely also remember that the remaining players you mentioned were relief pitchers, and thus irrelevant to the discussion of the quality of starting pitching, right?' That's a large part of managing your arms to be ready for the playoffs. In the playoffs, every pitcher on the staff is relevant to the discussion of the quality of the pitching as you go to a short starting pitcher rotation and improvisation is critical when one of your starters goes bust (as Radke did).

I think also it has a lot to do with catching Vasquez and Deduno, 2 guys that are not easy to catch. Great point. (Is that maybe why Doumit and Mauer are taking it slowly getting back, too? Butera definitely earned his paycheck the last couple of days).

well... they are 4-5 OF and 2 Cs in most rosters, so I really see no issues. Also, at this point there are probably 8-10 OFs ahead of him in the minors (let's say the beginning of 2013 and I am not counting the MiLB FAs that Rantz will sign). There are probably 8-10 Cs ahead of him as well. So the numbers make me think that he has higher likelihood in advancing as an OF plus you have to add another year to learn another position as a C. That is academic. Pettersen is 170 lbs with a diving weight belt on Dereck Rodriguez is also close to 150. Stick arms stick legs. Nothing like Pudge and Pudge was closer to 225 than 205... Not to be too argumentative here. You are trying to compare Rodriguez at age 40 to Pettersen at age 24. I would wager that Pudge at 24 weighed closer to Pettersen at age 24 than to Pudge at age 40. Derrick is currently listed at 160 and his genetic background suggests he'll likely end up with at least a somewhat similar profile to his father's. Furthermore, here is an article from the NY Times in 2005: http://www.nytimes.com/2005/05/25/sports/baseball/25pudge.html A pull quote from it: "(Last night, he said he weighed 187 pounds, compared with 215 last season.)" Besides the references and allegations to prior steroid use, Pudge did drop the weight starting in 2005, for his mid-to-late 30s to prolong his career, and returned to his more natural body-type. I don't think it's a stretch to suggest that Derreck Rodriguez could get to the majors faster with the Twins by considering the catcher option (appears to be a winning strategy for Hermann). Passing the relatively non-descript list of 8-10 catchers in the Twins system is not much of a hurdle for a superior athlete, even one who is still super-skinny. And he does have a HOF catcher for a Dad with whom he can consult on his development. Time to hit the weights Derreck, to get on a faster track to the majors- or look to be traded to another team needing an OF sooner than the Twins will be doing so.

At least they broke up the no hitter. At the one game I attended this year, the Twins were hitless. The Twins with the worst home record in all of baseball at home (only 29 wins!) will sure help goose up those season ticket renewals for 2013. Does J Pohlad really think that Dave St Peter and Terry Ryan are generating enough excitement around the park to keep this thing at status quo going into next season? Twins Subliminal Man Marketing Person: "Make sure you get first crack at those 2014 All-Star game seats... the only way is by paying top dollar for 81 crappy 2013 games...hurry, hurry hurry"

Regardless, wouldn't you agree that Dereck Rodriguez, with the plethora of young OF prospects, is heavily blocked at advancing quickly through the Twins system?

I've said it before, but with just the 3 guys ahead of him in OF at this camp (Buxton, Kepler and Pineda) alone, why isn't Derek Rodriguez lookng at a faster way to get to the majors by catching like his Pop? Have you seen Derek Rodriguez in real life? Let me find a shot of his from ST. I think that would answer your question... There you go: [ATTACH=CONFIG]2352[/ATTACH] (and this thing is not letting me embed images unless you upload them locally too... gee) He is about AJ Pettersen size Sounds like a perfect match for Pudge at the same age. From Baseball Reference: Adam Pettersen Adam Jesse Pettersen Bats: Right, Throws: Right Height: 5' 9", Weight: 170 lb. Iván Rodríguez Ivan (Torres) Rodriguez (Pudge or I-Rod) Position: Catcher Bats: Right, Throws: Right Height: 5' 9", Weight: 205 lb.

I've said it before, but with just the 3 guys ahead of him in OF at this camp (Buxton, Kepler and Pineda) alone, why isn't Derek Rodriguez lookng at a faster way to get to the majors by catching like his Pop?

Believe me, I get the message, I bet AJ likely had a hand in sending it, doubt if the Twins FO is receiving it.

Don't start in on the Chief-needle already, too early in the day. The White Sox are doing great with Beckham (240) and Ramirez (270) at the 8 and 9 spots in the order. Casilla (222) would work if one of the other 3 guys could reliably hit close to 270, don't see it from either of the newcomers.

9 times out of 10, Span pulls up on AJs drive and plays that one off the wall for a bases-clearing 2-bagger. Way to go, Revere.

Is there any limit to how badly the Twins can play? This suddenly got a lot more fun.

Even if all the points are demonstrably valid?

--- You need starting pitching to win in the posteason. I think the lack of playoff success is a lot more attributable to the fact that we were running out the likes of Brian Duensing and Nick Blackburn to face stacked Yankee lineups in October than it is to Gardy's "failure to build and learn." (When Brucy Bochy won his first World Series in 15 years of managing with the Giants in 2010, was that because of his ability to "build and learn" from his previous failures? Or you think maybe that pitching staff had a little something to do with it.) And I think you're point about ownership is a fair one. At least in the '00s, before Target field, they were content with having a team that competes but never truly contends. Those teams were built to beat the Royals in July. They were not built to beat the Yankees in October. But that's more a reflection of ownership than of Gardy. You do remember the #2 ranked in pitching 2006 team with Santana, Radke, Nathan, Garza, Reyes, Rincon and Liriano, right?

Liriano is looking pretty good. He's going to mess up my Over-Under bet of "4" on the game (hours) Second No-No?

LEN3 disagrees: "Hermann: Gardenhire said he's committed to playing catcher-outfielder Chris Hermann, who was called up because of the Mauer-Doumit situation. Gardenhire, however, is trying to put his best team on the field to face the contending White Sox and probably won't give Hermann a shot until they get to Cleveland."

In reverse order: TK has 2 rings and a great post season record. Maddon has an excellent post-season record. Showalter is as good as Gardy The Vikings were cheated big time at that game. Lots of non-calls including the bounty calls. If they called that personal foul dirty hit against Favre game was over. But the powers of being definitely had a Katrina-driven agenda. Again, I said that Gardy's record is worse than Childress and they got totally different treatment by the fan base. Regular season records are a dead heat (so Gardy is about as great as Childress, I give you that) but the postseason/playoff records are not. Gardy is light years worse. And this is a fact. Winning percentages between football and baseball are apples and oranges. A great baseball team might win 60% of their games (~100 wins) but win 60% (10-6) of your games in football and you aren't even guaranteed to go to the playoffs. Great teams in football win 80%-90% of their games. Huh ?!? This is a partly true, but in the end, still a specious argument, is the discussion even about "great teams"? Even by your criteria, Gardenhire has never had a "great team" (closest was .593 in 06), he's 0/11, while Childress had one, making him 1/5. These are just some of many playoff teams and/or division champs over the years thanks to the ridiculous priority placed on geographical division alignments in the "League of Parity", the NFL: 78 Vikings 8-7-1 80 Vikings 9-7 04 Vikings 8-8 04 Rams 8-8 10 Seahawks 7-9 (division winners!) 04 Seahawks 9-7 99 Seahawks 9-7 99 Dolphins 9-7 95 Dolphins 9-7 (These are just a few of the countless 9-7 playoff/div. champ teams) 09 Jets 9-7 09 Ravens 9-7 91 Jets 8-8 90 Saints 8-8 85 Browns 8-8 82 Browns 4-5 82 Lions 4-5 11 Cincy 9-7 11 Broncos 8-8 08 Chargers 8-8 06 Giants 8-8 There are mediocre teams that make the playoffs in MLB as well- who would dispute that the inbalanced schedule has skewed Gardy's record significantly better than it should be?, his dreadful performance against the Eastern Division is well documented. He made his career mark feasting on the dregs of the AL and just about every inter-division series against the clearly inferior NL. This has clearly been more than "good enough" for the ownership, which fought a pitched battle to commit club suicide- leave the state or contract itself out of existence- from 2001 to 2007. It's also "good enough" for the fans, just happy to still have a team in town with a laconic, unflashy, but seemingly successful, manager. Childress, though on the surface similar in delivery to Gardenhire, by dint of his aloof and secretive ways and anal personality, was never able to endear himself in Minnesota. In the end, the point of discussion is about a body of work over a career and the final net record, not single season "great teams". Both compiled records in some of the weaker-to-mediocre divisions in their respective leagues. Gardy gets the edge for making the playoffs, watered down as these accomplishments are, 6/11 years, Childress made it in 2/5 years. As far as postseason goes, Gardy and Childress come up short yet again, as they both were able to make it past the first round of the playoffs just once. Curiously though, Gardy did it in his first year, inheriting a group of up-and-comers, and failed to learn and build from the experience- as we all are well aware, he has been a playoff flopper ever since, even with "better" teams on paper, and losing embarrassingly meekly each time.

That would be, never. 2 managers in 26 years. Gardy walks out of this job on his own set of terms, just as TK did. It's an old boys club, comfortable in its ways, they couldn't even entirely get rid of the worst GM of the 21st Century!, with semi-engaged, semi-absentee ownership- who besides letting a "temporary" GM determine what his own status might be from year to year, or even day to day- is focused on a different set of priorities than the fans.

Yep. That's all I was saying. It took balls to make that call and it was a smart one. Few managers would have done it in that situation. Wait a minute! The working mantra in the media and the blogs is that managers make virtually no difference to the W-L numbers over 162 games. Which is it? (/Tongue de-inserted from cheek) FWIW, I enjoy watching and following both the Orioles and Rays as they defy the odds and possibly both knock out the Yankess. What a game the other day!

Wait, is he a slimmed-down version of Ryan Doumit? Because if he's a "tremendous left fielder" he bears little resemblance to Ryan Doumit.

For better or worse: 1) Gotta think Pedro Hernandez has to be in the mix in the top 10, certainly above demonstrably repeated failure-worthy alternatives. 2) Nick Blackburn will be given every chance to earn that $5.5M next year, too. 3) Good to see you've come around to my way of thinking (and your own from 2011) regarding Duensing as a starter. Unfortunately, Gardenhire has left the door open for Duensing to compete for a top 5 spot in 2013. Dunce is a great asset to the team in his RP/Spot Starter role from the left side, leave him be, already. 4) Good to see that you have come around in your thinking to giving Hermsen every benefit of the doubt moving forward. His numbers indicate he is wise beyond his years, a kid who knows how to pitch, even without the greatest stuff. 5) Will the Twins wait on Gibson for a June call-up, seems that's usually the way they roll? 6) I suspect Hermsen and Gibson will join Hernandez, a MiL FA and Martis or Hirschfield as the likely top 5 SPs to start out in Rochester.

They don't go long without 3 healthy catchers.