twinsnorth49

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That's an impressive feat, with how hard it is to score runs in slow pitch and everything. How are the contract negotiations going?

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Holy hell, where do you find these guys?

Ok, hands up, who saw that coming yesterday eh? Well the shock waves have subsided somewhat and the magnitude of the news is starting to sink in. On the field it was a matter of the more things change, the more they stay the same, as they ushered in the Rob Antony era picking up right where they left off, by losing. 1-0 Rob, pretty much a must win tonight now that Jimmy has found his pad of pink slips. Not going to do another TR post op for the Game Thread, we have enough of those in the forums Let's get right down to business. Things to think about. 1. Media guides, who knew these were the blueprint for successfully running an MLB franchise? Unfortunately the Twins media guide now contains false information on the organisational structure and JP is feverishly trying to contact everyone with a copy to cross TR's name off. Just in case someone out there is trying to model themselves after the Twins (ha ha, I know), we don't want to to mislead them. 2. Cleaning out offices. Never had to do it myself, hope I don't have to, until I retire at least. Yesterday must have been busy for Terry, what with contacting the unemployment office and trying to round up boxes at local Cub food stores to put his stuff in. Classy move by the Pohlads to let him go while the team was on the road, would have been awkward for maintenance to change the nameplate on the door while he was still there. 3. New beginnings and fresh starts, I like them, I hope the Pohlads eventually will to. The big move is done, don't be afraid to see it through and keep going in that different direction, it's exciting.................I hope. 4. The Tigers, for God's sake can we beat this team just once please!! 5. Terry Ryan. Other than a 6 year span with the Mets, Terry was a lifelong Twin. While there will always be disagreements on the relative success and failure of his time with the team, there is no disputing he was a dedicated and loyal member of the Twins for a very long time, I appreciate that. Thanks Terry, best of luck to ya! Lineups. Tigers 1. Ian Kinsler ® 2B 2. Cameron Maybin ® CF 3. Miguel Cabrera ® 1B 4. Victor Martinez (S) DH 5. Nick Castellanos ® 3B 6. Justin Upton ® LF 7. Mike Aviles ® RF 8. James McCann ® C 9. Jose Iglesias ® SS SP. Anibel Sanchez ® Twins 1. Eduardo Nunez ® SS 2. Robbie Grossman (S) LF 3. Joe Mauer (L) 1B 4. Brian Dozier ® 2B 5. Miguel Sano ® 3B 6. Max Kepler (L) RF 7. Kennys Vargas (S) DH 8. Kurt Suzuki ® C 9. Byron Buxton ® CF SP. Tommy Milone (L).

Sorry, this versatilty, roster flexibility thing just goes over my head. If he has absolutely no value at any position or in any situation, how is this even remotely a good thing? Versatility does not count when you are bad at all the things that qualify you as versatile.

Oh, well in that case.....sigh.

Crap, my game thread for tomorrow just got a whole lot harder!

The essence of the belief has to be brought to the believers and the believers have to understand the essence of the belief. If this is what we agree on, fine by me.

You don't think this is just an interim replacement? Who else were they going to hire mid season? I doubt they were conducting an intensive search during the first half. They did what most of us wanted them to do and probably sooner than we thought, but we still need to complain? If they keep Antony beyond the end of the season, you can kick me in the nuts when I actually meet you.

I think Molly is safe until the end of the season, I don't believe Antony will can him. I think they'll end up hiring a replacement for Antony after the season and a new FO will likely move on from Molitor. At least that's what I'm hoping will happen anyway.

Is the internet broken yet?

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Point 2 is nothing more than saying there is nothing to fix, it's not about changing religion, it's about education and teaching tolerance, just like Christians. It's not a dead end conversation, blaming the religion is just the wrong conversation. So honour killings are not allowed in Islam but let's blame it anyway? Ok, well rape and murder aren't allowed under Buddhist beliefs but I'm blaming it anyway. People committing crimes, even in the name of religion is not a religious issue, it's a moral issue. Muslim states are distinguishable from Islam, not all of them rely entirely on Islamic Law, ironically Pakistan, the one you bring up the most. Many of them are a blend of Shariah and secular law and they don't run around stoning people or cutting their hands off. Populations are fine with having regressive fundamentalists because of the conditions under which they live, the terror they are faced with and the lack of education to know any better. Propaganda is a powerful tool and fundamentalists know how to use it. Russians used to support their governments once upon a time as well, what they were being told was their truth. Until it wasn't. Look, I'm not changing your mind and you're not changing mine. We have a fundamental disagreement on where the issue stems from, go ahead and call me wrong, I'm ok with that. I believe that the religion requires some reformation, yes that needs to happen through Islam, but not by changing it, just changing the way people understand it. Perhaps we are talking about the same thing really. Good discussion, I've learned a lot but it's just going in circles now.

Ok, I'd cut out the parts I'm replying to but it's really hard on my phone so hopefully I'm not misinterpreting you: I agree that it needs to happen, but I feel it has to come from a ground swell of a reformed Islam. 1) You seem to imply toppling totalitarian regimes is the path, but isn't that the central mistake behind the Iraq war? How do you rectify that claim with what has happened too frequently? Namely, that regimes fall and are often replaced by even more hard line Islamists? Agreed 100%, this is very difficult to rectify and I won't pretend to have the answers. Another Iraq or Afghanistan is certainly not the solution but if we're going to talk about human rights abuses and fixing Islam, it must involve those most responsible for the abuses. As unrealistic as it may be, it's going to take a united effort among first world countries, without self interest, as well as initiatives from Muslims within those countries themselves. Quote 2.I can cite a host of information that verifies the Pew opinions match brutality actually happening, but what can you provide to help show that this is something people say they believe but don't act on? (That seemed to be your argument) I know, for exsmple, that three women a day in Pakistan, at minimum, are victims of honor killings. We could talk about acid, women's education, gay rights, and more. These are things I can demonstrate as facts. How can you prove your claim? Brutality happens in many places and for many reasons. I didn't say it doesn't happen, I said I don't believe the majority of people in many of these countries perpetrate this brutality , even though through the simple interpretation of the poll it indicates they do. What brutality are you referring to btw? People in all countries commit atrocious acts in the name of religion, how does this become the majority? None of the things you mention are permitted in Islam and if fact are crimes themselves. Honour killings are strictly forbidden and so is taking any justice into your own hands. What do these have to do with Islam? These are cultural issues that need to be solved through education. I also didn't say Islam is without it's social problems, but I would argue that under more progressive and sensible leadership many of these issues would be advanced, as it historically has. Literacy rates are extremely high in many Muslim majority countries. Islam is not misogynistic, Muslim societies are and many of them differ quite dramatically. Pakistan is a curiosity considering a women was once it's Head of State. There is also lots of evidence to show that classical jurists struggled with what to with homosexuality, indicating more openness than maybe we believe. Again, under the current situation in many countries, progress is virtually impossible. Quote 3. I don't mean by "change" that we get white out for the Quran, what we need is a reformation of practice. You can be right that the practice is being warped from the top down, but change will need to come bottom up. And that change has to come from within believers of Islam. Perhaps we agree on both? Well, there isn't much that needs to be whited out from the Quran, most of the things we've been talking about don't exist in it to begin with. Regardless I agree with your statement entirely, the change in perception, education and practice has to come from within the Muslim community. It is the only possible solution. I definitely agree on both.

Yes, in totalitarian Islamist States that choose to use the Quran as a literal interpretation as means to their end. The people are not practicing some abhorrent, violent version of Islam, the jurists are, and they are not jurists. You honestly think in some of the regions polled by Pew you would get a different response than one that is put forth by the regime, including places in Africa and Southeast Asia as well., ? You go there, speak out against the injustices of the regime and let me know how it works out for you. I find it incredibly naive for the results of the Pew poll to be taken entirely at face value. Furthermore, just because someone says they support stoning an adulterer or cutting off the hands of a thief doesn't mean they want to see that happen and would trust that the people in charge of making such a decision would properly judge the case and rule based on precedent and the proper interpretation of the Quran, which would be to avoid it at all costs and only in the most extreme cases administer those punishments. Every bit of justice in the Quran is couched with mercy as the primary, motivating teaching. In fact, according to the laws, it is damn near impossible to sentence an adulterer to stoning based on the criteria required, and that is because it is meant for only the severest of cases that threaten morality as a whole. It is illegal to cut off the hands of a thief who stole because they are hungry, or if they are in need of medicine. Stonings and the cutting of hands are meant as deterrents, just as the death penalty still is in the US, but actually have a much greater burden of proof. Extremism is the problem, in a way you are perpetrating the same things as the extremists are by picking and choosing the most extreme examples and holding them up to be examples of proof. They are not, it misses the totality of the concepts and beliefs, which do matter. The strokes are way to broad and that is relevant, no matter how much you insist it's not. This is not the way Islam is practiced in most of the World, it is the way in which it is being imposed. Why are the leaders in Islamist States not held to the same judgment as they hand down to the people? They are breaking the pillars of Islam, why are they not accountable to the same literal interpretations? What parts of Islam would you change in order to fix the problem we face? Which scriptures or beliefs need to be amended so that we can avoid the atrocities we are facing today? If the people in these regions didn't live under such oppressive regimes and did not face the crushing social conditions they face today, would we be questioning Islam? Why does Shariah Law seem to work in Israel and India? Changing Islam isn't going to help, and it doesn't need to happen (and it's not going to happen). What needs to happen is for the world (including all Muslims) to end the Totalitarian regimes that operate in many of these countries and improve the conditions in which the people live. Extremists aren't born from the religion, they are born from their social conditions and this plays the biggest role imo. You say it yourself, it's the practice of the religion in the real world that needs to change, not the religion. Maybe we're really agreeing in principle, but I don't think we agree on what the head of the beast is. I don't think nearly as many Muslims believe or support things in the literal way you and others seem to believe.

Islam is not the problem, I am not wrong. The Pew Poll is an interesting study, but falls woefully short of being a conclusive condemnation on Islam. It is incomplete and allows for no nuance, it is a broad stroke. I am well read, many are not. There is a fundamental misunderstanding and ignorance about Islam and Shariah throughout this discussion. It myopic and so are the the Western analogies. Bill Maher should not be placed on a pedestal. He's wrong about a lot of things. What Donald Trump says frames nothing I believe or say. I urge people to gain a fuller understanding of Islam and Shariah Law. I urge people to see how Islamist States use their version of it for violence and oppression and how this plays a part in what the people in those regions think. Islamist States are not in keeping with the historical traditions of Islam and they do not abide by it's teachings and therefore are exempt from being adherents to Islam. They are false, plain and simple. There are many examples to be shown, perhaps I'll have the inclination to provide some in time, but not until the grandstanding and rhetoric stops. I respect everyone in this conversation as intelligent people. Things are being viewed through a certain lens though and that lens is blurred.

Who are you talking to?

Wanting Shariah Law doesn't equate to supporting oppressive or regressive interpretations. It only means they want the guiding source of their religion to rule all aspects of their life. This surprises people? I find the poll makes a lot of assumptions about Shariah law, including the overriding belief it is mainly some kind of justice system that is administered only one way.

No, they don't know that because of their lack of education and oppression of the state. Islam doesn't control their education, the state does. If Islam controls ones education how does any Muslim person become educated? In fact the religion preaches ignorance is grounds for not inserting oneself in any decision being made on Islamic law. What is pervasive by country and region is the way in which literal interpretations of Islamic law are being perpetrated by it's leaders, ones who lack the theological knowledge of how to properly make such decisions based on the writings of the prophet and in keeping with the current times. It's a fractured community, not religion. It's lack of a unifying moral and practical voice is a big problem. That doesn't necessarily suggest one person. You cannot change Islam, nor is there a need to, as proven by the majority. You can only change those who corrupt it for their own purposes.

Extremists are beholden to a literalist ideology that has historically been rejected by the Muslim world. Allah said " but say not for any false thing that your tongue may put forth, this is unlawful and this is forbidden, so as to ascribe false things to Allah, For those who ascribe false things to Allah will never prosper. Ignorance is probably the biggest issue facing Islam today, leaders in states that convince it's people they are only following what is laid out in the writings of the prophet, in the name of Allah. They are not qualified to make those interpretations, they are false prophets and do not follow the traditional jurisdiction of implementing laws. Unfortunately Muslims in those states do not themselves possess the required knowledge of those aspects of their religion.

By focusing on the states that use those things based on their own interpretation for their own purpose. As you said most of those practices don't exist for Muslims in the Western world. Islam was always intended to be interpreted based on current societal norms. Extremists separate the things that serve their agenda, they bastardsise their faith by doing so. It's unspiritual.

. No I'm arguing it has more to do than just the acts of barbarism or inequality you're separating from it. Shariah law is the guiding source of all Islam, from how they pray, live their daily lives, serve their communities, everything. It isn't some separate thing that has to do with punishing people. Trying to fragment it makes no sense, it's all one thing.

People you're missing the point, Shariah law is Islamic law, it is Islam. There is no separation, it guides everything. It is not like Christianity or either of its testaments.

That's the point though, Shariah law is Islam, you can't separate them. Shariah has four bases, two of which are consensus and analogical jiristic reasoning. Jurist law may be closer to what we are talking about considering it's based in human reasoning but it still can't be removed, only those who choose to keep it in the past, which was never it's purpose.