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    Do The Twins Need To Acquire An Ace?


    Seth Stohs

    I was on a radio show on 1390 The Fan in St. Cloud yesterday, and the first question I was asked about the Twins offseason was if I thought the team would attempt to acquire an ace in the offseason.

    It is a very fair question. As we watched the playoffs unfold this year, there were aces all over. The New York Mets started four young pitchers who topped 95 with their fastball and have really good secondary pitches. The Royals added Johnny Cueto at the trade deadline. The Blue Jays added David Price at the deadline. The Astros had Dallas Kuechel. The Dodgers had Clayton Kershaw and Zach Greinke.

    The Minnesota Twins have some depth at starting pitcher, and they made huge improvements as a group in 2015. For the first time in several years, they did not finish last in starters ERA.

    The last two offseasons, Terry Ryan has spent $100 million combined for Ricky Nolasco and Ervin Santana. Neither would fit the category of ace, but before signing with the Twins, they both had been solid, inning- eating pitchers for an extended period of time. Phil Hughes pitched like an Ace in 2014, but he came back down to earth in 2015. Tommy Milone won’t fit anyone’s definition of an ace, but he pitched well much of 2015. Kyle Gibson isn’t a big strikeout pitcher, but he topped 180 innings and was the Twins top pitcher in 2015. Tyler Duffey pitched like an ace down the stretch. Trevor May showed at times in the first half that he can be a solid MLB starter. He is capable of missing bats. And, we all look forward to the day when JO Berrios is in the rotation and what he could become.

    In the Twins Daily Offseason GM Handbook, Terry Ryan was asked how he would define an Ace.

    “We have a definition of an ace. It’d be quality innings, it’d be a guy that can get you a win when you need it, it would be a guy that’s got pitchability, it’d be a guy that gets into the seventh or eighth more often than not, those types of things. That’s an ace. And it doesn’t necessarily have to be a guy that throws 96. Maddux was an ace for a long time, he didn’t throw 96, and he did all those things I just mentioned.”

    As I wrote last month, velocity certainly doesn’t hurt but it isn’t a requirement for an Ace. Ryan continued, “Radke was our ace for a long time, and people argue that he wasn’t a No. 1. OK, that’s a good response. But he also pounded out 230 innings every year for a decade. He might not be the guy you want going up against some of these bigshots, but he also was the type of guy that you feel pretty good about taking the mound.”

    Over the course of his 12 seasons with the Twins, Radke quietly put up 45.6 bWAR. In the Twins 55 year history, only five Twins players have accumulated a higher bWAR. Those players are Rod Carew (63.7), Harmon Killebrew (53.7), Kirby Puckett (50.9), Bert Blyleven (49.3), and Joe Mauer (47.8). The next pitchers in line include Johan Santana (35.5 in 8 seasons), Jim Kaat (31.7 in 13 seasons) and Frank Viola (27.2 in 8 seasons).

    Think back to the Twins World Series teams of the past. The 1965 team had Jim Kaat, Camilo Pascual and Mudcat Grant. The 1987 team was led by Frank Viola and Bert Blyleven. The 1991 team had Jack Morris, Kevin Tapani and Scott Erickson.

    So, let’s get back to the 2015-2016 offseason and the original question. Do the Twins need an ace to get to the next step, to get to the playoffs and compete for another World Series title? The obvious answer is that it certainly wouldn’t hurt.

    None of the seven starters that will be competing for spots in the 2016 starting rotation are going to sit at 94+ mph. Trevor May averaged 93.2 mph on his fastball in 2015, but that was heightened by his time in the bullpen when he regularly hit 95 mph. Mike Pelfrey’s average fastball was 93.0 mph, but he is now a free agent and unlikely to return. Ervin Santana was next at 92.5. Then Kyle Gibson at 92.0 mph. Phil Hughes’ velocity dropped to 90.7 in 2015. Tommy Milone’s average fastball was just 87.6.

    However, Phil Hughes topped 200 innings in 2014. He had pitched 190 innings one other time in his career. Ervin Santana pitched more than 200 innings five times in his career, and reached 196 innings one other time. Ricky Nolasco went past 200 innings twice and was over 185 innings three other times. Tyler Duffey threw 196 innings between the big leagues and minor leagues in 2015. He’s got the size and strength to be the type of pitcher who can get to 200 innings consistently.

    Could the Twins acquire an ace this offseason?

    Could they acquire one in a trade? The Twins certainly have the prospects required to acquire pretty much any starting pitcher that might be available. This week, Billy Beane said that he didn’t think that there was much likelihood that he would trade Sonny Gray. However, as Nick wrote last month, acquiring Gray (or any ace-type pitcher) will take a combination of players such as Max Kepler and JO Berrios.

    Is it possible that the Twins could sign an ace this offseason?

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    David Price is the top pitcher on the trade market. In the Twins Daily Offseason Handbook, we projected that Price will sign a bigger contract that Max Scherzer’s seven year, $210 million deal signed last year. It’s hard to imagine the Twins signing a pitcher for $30 million a year over more than half a decade.

    So then there is the second tier. Names in this group include Johnny Cueto, Zach Greinke and Jordan Zimmerman. There is a good chance that these three pitchers will get at least $25 million per season for at least five seasons.

    Those four pitchers are the aces in the group. Along with committing $150 million or more, these players would cost the Twins their first-round draft pick in 2016, the 17th overall pick. If you want, you can add Jeff Samardzija to the group, but his 6.29 ERA in the 2nd half exemplifies the inconsistency that has marked his career.

    The next group includes guys like Mike Leake, Wei-Yin Chen, Scott Kazmir and Brett Anderson. These guys are $13-15 million guys, and likely would also cost the first round pick.

    Now, many will tell you that there isn’t a salary cap in baseball. That is true. However, businesses (which is what MLB teams are) do have to spend appropriately to their revenues. Why do I mention that? Because if the Twins are going to make a big splash in free agency with a starting pitcher, they would also need to make some moves to reduce their current payroll.

    How can they do that? Well, it’s easy to say they could get rid of Nolasco. However, if they are able to trade him, the Twins will have to still pay a huge chunk of his salary. The team could non-tender Tommy Milone, or they could trade him. However, that’s only $5 million. They could trade Trevor Plouffe, and that would open up about $8 million more. That’s $13 million. Is it possible that the Twins would also be willing to trade someone like Phil Hughes or Ervin Santana to open up another $12-13 million. That would get them to about $25 million. That might be enough to pick up one of the ace-like pitchers.

    If you’re looking for my opinion, I would feel comfortable sticking with the Twins current pitching options. Phil Hughes needs to be the 2014 version, and after a frustrating 2015, I think he would put in the work to get back to what he was. Having Ervin Santana for a full season would certainly benefit the team. The hope would be that Kyle Gibson would continue to be more consistent and take another step forward. Obviously it would be great if Tyler Duffey would pitch close to how he pitched down the stretch. At just 25 next season, he could develop into a mainstay in the rotation. Trevor May warrants another opportunity as a starter. He’s still just 26. And, of course, they need to do what is best for JO Berrios as well because he’s got the potential to be a guy you would feel good starting a playoff game for years to come as well.

    That rotation may not have the definition of an ace by many accounts. However, I feel good about the potential of Duffey and Berrios becoming long-term, reliable starters. I have a comfort level in Kyle Gibson and Ervin Santana. And, I do think that Hughes will bounce back in 2016. That’s a pretty solid staff, and I would feel comfortable with several of them making playoff starts. And that doesn’t even count Tommy Milone who, at times, was the Twins top starter in 2015 and actually has made playoff starts.

    And, though we haven’t discussed it to this point, having an outfield defense that will, at some point, include Eddie Rosario, Byron Buxton and Aaron Hicks will help any pitching staff.

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    There's no reasonable room for an ace and no one is going to take a package of Plouffe, Milone, and Nolasco to get one.  The Twins need to trade all of these guys and I'll be quite honestly surprised if more than one is in a different uniform to start 2016.  We have a nice promising young corps of pitchers with Gibson, Duffey, and May as well as Hughes and Santana who can be pretty solid number 2s (and possibly pitch like that ace for a stretch).  Not to mention that there's Berrios waiting in the wings.  Go get help in the pen.  Get help at catcher.  Find a decent fall back plan in the OF if Rosario, Buxton, Kepler, Hicks, and Arcia all do not pan out, but do not go mortgage the farm/future to add to that log jam of pitchers. 

    Berrios will be an "ace" (even though I dislike the term because it makes for weird thinking).

     

    That said, I do think the Twins should make a run at Greinke.

     

    I mean . . . good lord . . . people around these parts are willing to toss $60 million at declining Matt Weiters, why not double that for Greinke and just trade for a younger catcher (signing Greinke would make Gibson easily expendable to go with Plouffe, Polanco, and Stewart)?

     

     

     

    There's no reasonable room for an ace and no one is going to take a package of Plouffe, Milone, and Nolasco to get one.  The Twins need to trade all of these guys and I'll be quite honestly surprised if more than one is in a different uniform to start 2016.  We have a nice promising young corps of pitchers with Gibson, Duffey, and May as well as Hughes and Santana who can be pretty solid number 2s (and possibly pitch like that ace for a stretch).  Not to mention that there's Berrios waiting in the wings.  Go get help in the pen.  Get help at catcher.  Find a decent fall back plan in the OF if Rosario, Buxton, Kepler, Hicks, and Arcia all do not pan out, but do not go mortgage the farm/future to add to that log jam of pitchers. 

     

    I think this is generally right. I have mentioned Greinke simply because he would likely really consider a comparable deal from the Twins. Gibson is then a tradeable asset to go along with Plouffe and Milone (Nolasco trade isn't happening).

     

    I have come to the conclusion that the Twins should be converting some of their next line of starters into relievers because A: there is little room in the rotation, B: starting pitchers are simply better than relievers, for the most part, C: a reliever with three plus pitches can be dominant, and D: I think spending money on relievers given all of this is dumb (Jepsen is *not* going to work out nicely in 2016).

     

    I know that *clearly* Taylor Rogers is a starter in this system right now (AFL???) but I can imagine him being dominant out of the bullpen, for instance. Burdi, Peterson, Reed, Rogers, and Perkins looks like an interesting playoff bullpen to me.

    Defining an ace is hard.  But in my opinion the Twins have only had 1 in my adult life.  Johan Santana.  When I think of an ace I think of a guy who I have no doubt is going to go out and win.  Every time Johan was on the mount I just assumed the Twins would win because he would shut down whoever they were playing.  I never once thought, he gives them a chance to win, I assumed they were going to win and because of him.

     

    For a brief period that was also Francisco Liriano in 2006 too, but sustained it was Johan.

    Seth mentioned how to the Twins can get to $25M of room to potentially sign a guy for that salary.  What I am about to say is based a lot on hindsight but also is based on planning and building the team for the future.

     

    2 years ago the Twins were, bad.  Really bad.  They then went out and signed 2 decent (at the time) starting pitchers in Hughes and Nolasco for $9M and $12M.  Then last year they signed Santana for $13.5M  ($34.5M Total)

     

    Most likely Ryan knew the Team was not going to be competitive in 2014 and most thought 2015 was going to be another 90 loss season.  2016 was always the year in which the team was going to hopefully be able to start to be competitive again. 

     

    If Ryan had that thought process wouldn't it have made sense to sign some lesser priced pitchers in 2014 for shorter term deals so for this coming year instead of having $34M locked up in 3 mid rotation pitchers the team could now go out and get an true ace type pitcher and have some money left over to build a pen and surround the Ace in the rotation with guys like Gibson, May and Berrios and Duffey.

     

    I know it's very much a hind sight thought and there is no guarantee you can get an ace.  But looking at it this way wouldn't the team be in a great situation. 

     

    The other side of this is the Twins wouldn't sign a high priced guy because that $34 was never been earmarked on 3 mid rotation guys since the signings never happened or they would do the same type of thing in 2016 and just sign 3 Mike Leakes and Tim Stauffer.

     

     

    signing some lower priced pitchers instead of Nolasco, Hughes and Santana means more Pelfrey and Correia level pitchers.  And I think 2 of the 3 pitchers (hughes and Santana) will work out very well for the Twins.  Nolasco got injured and has been dreadful.  It happens.

     

    Getting an ace doesn't have to happen this offseason but if the Twins want to be anything more than an underdog in every playoff series then they will need to address this at some point or hope that Berrios is that pitcher.  Yes, the playoffs are a crapshoot but they are more of a longshot when you are an underdog to a more talented team in 3 series.  This is what plagued the Twins in the 2000's.  They made the playoffs but they were typically considered one of the least talented teams in the playoffs (my hopes were high in 2006 though).  It isn't impossible to win this way but it is really hard.

    Acquiring an ace in the off season with the idea of making it to the post season is like buying lottery tickets thinking it's going to make you rich.  The most likely scenario for both is you're going to spend a lot of money and end up disappointed.

     

    I like the way the staff is coming along.  I also think it's going to get better with experience, an improving defense and a better bullpen.

     

    And let's not forget some of the arms in the pipeline ready to make a splash.

     

    If the team finds itself in the thick of things and seems like it's postseason bound an ace makes much more sense.  There will undoubtedly be plenty of teams looking to dump salary and a trade should be much more feasible without giving away the house.

     

    Can we go back to worrying about catcher and the bullpen, please?

     

    Defining an ace is hard.  But in my opinion the Twins have only had 1 in my adult life.  Johan Santana.  When I think of an ace I think of a guy who I have no doubt is going to go out and win.  Every time Johan was on the mount I just assumed the Twins would win because he would shut down whoever they were playing.  I never once thought, he gives them a chance to win, I assumed they were going to win and because of him.

     

    For a brief period that was also Francisco Liriano in 2006 too, but sustained it was Johan.

    I guess it depends on how old you are Loosey.  LOL

     

    I would include Morris for his one year. Viola was an ace. Blyleven, even the second time around, was pretty close to being a second ace. I'd say Radke was for a year or two. (debatable I know)

     

    Berrios will be an "ace" (even though I dislike the term because it makes for weird thinking).

     

     

    While I agree with you, it's sooo hard to just say he will be that "ace" pitcher. The pressure (presumably) and expectations are such that I don't know if you can ever win that debate. (the is he or isn't he truly an "ace")

     

    What if it takes 2 years? 3? What if he he's an ace quality every other year? But yeah...I just have a really, really good feeling about Berrios, his stuff, his work ethic, and his determination and mental makeup.

     

    Interesting point, I have often compared him to Pedro Martinez, who also was not tall, though I'd speculate Berrios is bulkier. But also, Cueto, a proposed ace pitcher, while bulkier at a listed 220lbs, also stands only 5' 11". So just another couple examples of an ace pitcher not being over 6 foot.




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