ThePuck

yes, Rule V is going out and taking a chance on a player another team has given up on. It's a stab with little consequence if it doesn't work out. It's not an aggressive move to acquire pitching. It's a low risk, low reward move that worked out very well..but still a low risk move. The kind of low risk, low reward move that brought us Marquis, Ramon Ortiz, Ponson and Livan Hernandez (though that wasn't his). And yes, Seattle paid a big contract to a guy who had an ERA of almost 6.00 in 2006 and over 4.00 in the season prior to them signing him. That makes them stupid, nothing more. They've made many a boneheaded FA signing. And he didn't work out there either.

Agreed...but IMO, it's the only way we're gonna fix the pitching any time soon.

They blamed last season on injuries plain and simple. They were able to sell that idea. Then they try and sell the idea that 112M was overspending in an attempt to push us over the top, that what they spent this year was more in-line with what they really should have spent in 2011, but they forgot to mention they didn't really bring anyone in when that payroll rose and they dropped their middle IF, gutted their bullpen and ignored starting pitching needs. Perhaps they really thought a healthy Span, Morneau and Mauer would garner quite a bit more wins...and maybe their returns should have allowed us to have more wins (especially since the division got even weaker)...but by not improving the pitching, and ignoring the middle infield, the team couldn't turn it around.

No.

I appreciate the way you feel in regards to what I said, but you didn't post anything that would suggest you felt that way...at least I didn't see it. I quoted PseudoSABR's post to you, because his seemed to suggest that new people here don't know baseball when they get here and therefore aren't intellectual to understand the nuances of the game on and off the field. Some others seemed to agree. While I can certainly appreciate the fact that most of you seasoned posters on this site have gotten comfortable with each other's level of knowledge of the game, I'm not sure new people coming in can't be right there as well. I may have misunderstood his post, but it doesn't seem that way...and that kind of thinking can turn new people off.

He had 27 errors, 8 more than anyone else at shortstop. He had 29 the year before, 4 more than anyone else at shortstop. And he had 27 the year before that. Now, you'll find as I'm here longer, I don't really put too much credence into errors and fielding % to judge a defender, but GARDY and his gang harp on errors, which was really my point. Whether he'd thrive here under Gardy. On top of that, he really hasn't shown much range either. So, I mean, maybe it's a good idea, maybe it's not. I'd focus on pitching for trades though...at least this year. Just my opinion

'Here's the thing - at some point this happens to teams that are successful for 10 years. Teams get old and it becomes very difficult to simply maintain the team much less add new players. tbh - We've been spoiled by a decade of winning.' our discussion centered around whether or not that spike rise in payroll in 2011 was ownership's way of trying to push us over the edge from 2010 to 2011. If you follow the back and forth discussion, you'll see that. I believe I made a case that wasn't really the case, considering they gutted the middle IF and the bullpen and didn't use the money to address any new starting pitching. I don't know how that can be viewed as ownership trying to push us over the top after a very impressive 2010 season. As far as your point, I'm not sure that we should just be okay with the declining years that have started and may continue for another couple...not when our core of position players are still solid and relatively young and not when the declining years happen a year after the new ballpark opens...a ballpark that the taxpayers were told was needed to keep us competitive. Cutting payroll after a 99 loss season and likely doing it again after a 96 loss season, is cause for concern.

No, the trading players at their peak value comment and the pitching problems comment are two separate issues, though one could say that if the team traded guys at their peak value (like they should have done with Cuddyer in the 2011 trading deadline) that pitching certainly should have been targeted. My point about the pitching is that I don't think 2011 was the start of a trend...that's where I respectfully disagree with you. I think it started when Santana left. Certainly if your goal is to go deep into the playoffs for a W Series championship in mind, our pitching staff has lacked the pitching needed to win a short series against the best offenses in baseball for awhile now...even as improved as it was in 2010. If your goal is to be competitive in a weak division, I can see where hoping the 2010 Pavano and Liriano's 2010 was going to continue on to next season and keep us competitive, but not improving the rotation, and it staying the same as it was in 2010, certainly wasn't going to push us to the next level. IMO. One could also say for a team that preaches to it's pitchers pitch to contact forcing ground balls, trading Hardy and not keeping Hudson (or replacing him with a solid glove) wasn't the best idea...

In my opinion, if we are trading Span, Revere, Willingham or Morneau, we have to get pitching. And can you imagine Gardy having the biggest error machine in baseball on his team? Gardy would destroy him. I'm also not sure we have the right people to develop him into being the type of player his potential would suggest he is?

kab21: You forgot 2011 and 2012. Your original comment was he was basing things on one year, yet you don't post the last two. I guess it depends on how far back you wanna go. I went back 4 years...the most recent times...trying to show it's been poor 3 of the last 4 seasons, not just one. That change was noticeably needed before just this last season. One could have looked at 2010 objectively and said a couple guys had career seasons...unusual season for them...like Pavano and Liriano for instance, and decided it was best not to put too much credence into those seasons, expecting the same results. As far as '04-'07 seasons go, without Johan (one guy) where would that rotation have ranked? Truth is, we haven't done well in pitching for awhile...neither in drafting or developing, and it's shown...and not just for one season

Okay, but here's the thing. Payroll went up 15M from 2010 to 2011. Pavano and Thome were on the 2010 roster. They only got 2.5 million more between them for 2011. 2.5M, that's it. A 1M raise for Pavano and a 1.5 M raise for Thome. That's less than 20% of the 15M increase. Yes, I know Pavano got 8M and Thome got 3M for 2011, but that whole amount wasn't fresh money coming onto payroll. Their 2010 salaries were already on the books for our team that had a payroll of 97.5M. They weren't brought in to add on to the 97.5M 2010 team. Look at it this way, we take them off the roster, taking away the 7M and 1.5M they made, that drops it to 89 M. Then bring them back by adding the 11M with their new 2011 salaries. That's 100M.

I think his point of not trading players at their peak value is valid. We didn't do it with Hunter, we haven't, as of yet, done it with Willingham. We also didn't do it with Cuddyer...and that was a must do that we failed to do. If we're going to build a pitching staff, hard decisions need to be made....and the way the new collective bargaining agreement is worded, it may force us to do that. As far as our rotation goes, it's been okay once in the last 4 seasons, bad the other other three. This isn't a one year thing, it's been broken for awhile

'That is such a good point about it not mattering if theTwins saved money on Willingham and Doumit. If you don't turn the saved money into more help for the ballclub, it's just money in Pohlad's pocket.' Thanks :-) 'Nice for him in the short run, but how much did all those empty seats at the end of the season cost? I love baseball win or lose, but how much more money and just plain fun happens when the team wins? ' That's a good point as well. As nice as TF is, and it's beautiful, I live 8 hours from the ballpark. I couldn't justify in my head the purchasing of tickets this year, and I LOVE going to the ballpark. I came back from Iraq in August 2010 and made sure I made a game there before the end of the regular season. I will always love the Twins, and I will go to games and deal with the losing as long as the players are giving real effort and the FO and ownership seem to be truly trying to put a winning team together. I didn't feel that criteria was met this year, so I watched them at home and didn't go to a game. Hoping next season is different.

Thanks. I think if people looked at him honestly instead of looking at his income and THEN basing what he should be doing on that, they'd have a truer view of him. That contract didn't magically change the type of hitter he's been through most of his career into the 2009 version. He had a great year last year, he really did, and yet he's scapegoat to some. I will never understand that thinking.

For Trout, no player -- any age, any tenure -- has ever combined at least 45 steals with 125 runs and 30 homers in one season. ' And then look at his OBP, SLG%, OPS and OPS+ along with his BA over .320...all from a leadoff CF. Cabrera was #1 in BA, Trout #2. Trout #3 in OBP, Cabrera #4. Cabrera #1 in SLG%, Trout #3. Cabrera #1 in OPS, Trout #2. Trout #1 in OPS+, Cabrera #2. Pretty darn close there, no? Really close to each other in every one of those categories...Trout getting him in OBP and OPS+, Cabrera getting him in BA, SLG% and OPS. Those are widely accepted stats, no WAR mentioned. Then add in the base running and defense comparisons in which Trout blows Cabrera away. Then there's the fact that one is a leadoff hitting CF and one is a corner IF. Trout should be MVP.

Is the assumption that new people here don't know baseball when they get here and therefore aren't intellectual enough at the beginning? If I'm misunderstanding your post, and some other's posts saying things along those same lines, please let me know. Cause some of us were just posting elsewhere for many years and heard about this great place and came over.

and our minor league system is hurting, especially in the pitching department

I believe Guerra is out of options...so it's 25 man roster or bust. Am I correct on this? And I thought Tosoni was granted his outright release...

The last really nice season we had was the offseason prior to the 2010 season. We went into the season having a major league starting caliber middle infield and we signed Pavano and Thome. Wouldn't be much for some teams but it was a nice splash for us. People wanna focus on Ryan signing Doumit and Willingham last year and pat Ryan on the back, but they seem to forget we were losing Cuddy and Kubel. I don't think we can look at the gains without also looking at the loses. Yes, we saved some money signing Willingham and Doumit over keeping Cuddy and Kubel, but then we didn't use that money saved to go and get pitching. I am not overly excited about this offseason as much as I try. Seems Ryan is cutting payroll again and not going after quality starting pitching, at least not through free agency. Our starting pitching isn't going to cut it and signing players off the scrap heap after other teams pass or show little interest isn't cause for much excitement. Would love to be proven wrong though. And while I agree with your assessment of the FA pitching market, Ryan has disagreed...called it thin...not much to choose from.

Untrue. The Twins could have let free agents Carl Pavano and Jim Thome walk, but stretched payroll beyond the level they were comfortable with in order to keep the team together and make another run. But that is bringing back the SAME players...that wasn't IMPROVING the team that had just got swept out of the ALDS...AGAIN (And one was a 40 year old part time DH). So, how does that show they are going for it and improving the team to push to the next level? Especially when you consider: A: They still didn't do anything to upgrade the starting pitching from what it was in 2010. They went into spring training with 'six major league starting pitchers 'competing' for the five spots'. None of them were new. B: They still gutted their fine bullpen. C: They still dismantled their middle infield. How is that going for it and improving their team from what they had in 2010?

Yep, his acquisitions of players like Willingham, Doumit, Carroll and Burton certainly led this team right down the tubes. He should not only fire himself but commit seppuku on the mound at Target Field. Do you ever get bored of posting some variation of the same "fire everyone" comment on every thread? Here's the thing. Willingham and Doumit were brought in to replace the departing Cuddyer and Doumit. They weren't adding Willingham and Doumit and keeping Cuddy and Kubel. They were looking for a cheaper alternative to Cuddy and Kubel.and hoping it worked it. It did, which is nice, but they were replacing often productive players, not adding on to our list of productive players to improve the team. They didn't take the money saved and go get pitching, for example. Now, I was all for signing Willingham and Doumit. In fact, before last season's postseason was done, there were quite a few of us over on another site saying those two players were the exact two we needed to get. It was a pretty obvious move that needed to be made. But it was what it was. Truth is, the pitching has been a problem for awhile, specifically starting pitching. THAT needed to be addressed, and it wasn't. And really, we all need to remember, Ryan wasn't exactly gone when Smith was GM. He was Smith's special assistant. He's also a big reason why our starting pitching staff is where it is today. Many of those guys are his guys. So maybe his question isn't such a bad one...even if it is a common type post from him.

'P.S. I thought that an OPS of 1.000 really defined an "elite" batter.' No one in the Majors had an OPS of 1.000 or higher this year in the...not even Cabrera with his Triple Crown. Does that mean we had no elite hitters in the Majors this year? In the last 4 seasons, only 7 players have done it (only two have done it more than once in those 4 seasons...Pujols and Cabrera). In those 4 seasons, the most in one season was 4 (2010). Do we really have that few elite hitters in baseball? Not only that, one needs to take into account position. Is the players elite when considering the position he plays?

I'm fairly new to this place but I must say, this completely destroys the MLB Twins Message boards. The MLB Twins story boards are still pretty good. We have a good core group there, but this place is fantastic.

Two words: Anthony Slama

I believe he was an infielder in the minors. Yup, a utility IF...just the guy you want instructing our guys...since those are the kind of IFs we have and those seem to be the kind the team covets. Wouldn't want to decide who is best at each position and then PLAY them there as much as possible. Gardy has to move them all around to try and make himself look like a genius. It does the opposite. Gardy even said, before Hardy was traded, that even if Hardy was still on the team, Casilla would compete for the starting job at shortstop with him AND others..