ThePuck

Ah...well that kind of negates the whole debate doesn't it :-)

This part of the discussion all started when someone wrote: 'Sorry John, but when it comes down to who are you going to believe, I'll take Ryan.' And I said I wouldn't because I felt he was caught straight up in a lie before and that I just don't trust him at his word. So regardless of how open or truthful you think he SHOULD be with the fans is irrelevant to the discussion..the guy was saying he'd trust what Ryan says over someone else, I said I wouldn't. Whether he should be truthful or not is another issue entirely. One could say lying, in general, is wrong...that lying to fans of the team you work for is wrong...but I guess that's a morals thing. If he doesn't want to answer the question so as not to let info out to other teams, that's one thing. Lying to fans is different.

But you wrote: 'It is given that over a large enough sample, all defenders field virtually the same number and type of batted balls to their zone' I interpreted 'field' as making plays. As in he fielded the ball. Was that a bad interpretation?

I appreciate the effort you put into your given, but the info I showed above kind of hurts that given. And the guys I used finished 3-6 in innings played at shortstop, so it's a strong sample size. In any event, if your given was true...that if spread out far enough everyone would have the same amount of balls in zone and the same of plays made on them....then their RZRs would be the same...since RZR is the average. If your given was true, they wouldn't even use the RZR, it'd be meaningless.

You think Baker is better than Haren? Or did Anaheim pick up his option already?

That is a bedrock assumption, and even in a small sample like this, BIZ correlates well with innings. [ATTACH=CONFIG]2557[/ATTACH] I assume that balls out of zone correlates similarly. But no, I don't have that data. Edit: you can also look at the names at the top of that leaderboard, they are the usual suspects. Ramirez played 142 MORE innings than Escobar, but they had the same amount of Balls in Zone. Exactly the same amount. Barmes had one less ball in zone than Ramirez and Escobar, in almost 100 LESS innings than Escobar. So you have 3 defenders there, and Barmes had 1 less ball in zone than Ramirez even though he played in 233 less innings. Additionally, Reyes had one more Ball in Zone than Ramirez and Escobar, but he played in 18 more innings than Ramirez, 160 more than Escobar and 251 more than Barmes. Yet, Reyes had less plays made than Ramirez, Escobar AND Barmes. But you say 'all defenders field virtually the same number and type of batted balls to their zone' That's not what the info above says. If it was true, everyone would have the same RZR...since that's an average. Edited for typos...I'm a horrible typist

Mauer isn't going anywhere...Morneau very well could

'It is given that over a large enough sample, all defenders field virtually the same number and type of batted balls to their zone.' I don't think it's a given at all, and if you look at innings played, BIZ and Plays on Fangraphs, it shows that isn't true. In any event, the amount of Balls in Zone (BIZ) is used to calculate their RZR, along with the amount plays made in the zone. The zone for shortstop is set for everyone and the amount of balls that go into that zone is used in the calculation along with the amount of the balls in the zone the player converted to outs. ' Likewise, we can also assume defenders will have the same opportunities to field balls outside their zone.'' I don't see how this could be assumed either. In any event, RZR measures the range. OOZ measure the amount of balls fielded outside of the position's set range. ZR used to have RZR and OOZ combined, but they felt it wasn't giving us accurate info, so it divided the two. You need to take a look at both to get a good view on the overall skill of the defender, but range is RZR. Your 'given' and assumption seems to suggest you wanna discount RZR all together as all the numbers needed to calculate it will equal out if you project out far enough. Seems you just want to use OOZ as the measure of range, which is cool if that's what you wanna do...but that's not the stat for normal range of the player. And if you wanna just go by what you see, I didn't see exceptional range by any means. He came in on balls well, but his side to side was nothing special

He's been given a starting job multiple times and hasn't done anything to keep it. I believe it's time to cut bait, though I do like his defense now.

Ryan has been caught in a straight up lie more than once... I'd like to see evidence of this. I'm sure he's guilty of misrepresentations, half-truths, distortions, but "straight up" lies? When he trade Castillo, he said he only traded him cause "I didn't anticipate re-signing him at the end [of the season], so we ended up getting a couple players in return before October,". Then a day or two later he said he would have traded him even if he wasn't a pending free agent. So one of those statements is a lie. That's pretty thin, especially without a quote to support the second assertion. Even if he made the two assertions, I'm not sure it makes TR a straight up liar. The first quote can be found here for those curious. It happen how long ago, now? Took me forever to find the first quote...but this isn't the first time this has come up in conversations about him so it wasn't hard to remember. I remember him saying it live and reading it afterwards and saying, um, wait a minute. Just a couple days ago he said the reason he traded him was cause he didn't envision him re-signing him and now he says THIS? But it really doesn't matter, believe it, don't believe it, that's on you. I know what he said and didn't....and I don't trust him at all

Twins brass sure touted him as such...did so in the stories on the Twins site...and so did the announcers...not sure what they were seeing...was it his lack of range or his huge amount of errors that made them scream, WOW...he's a top flight defender

'Give me a Brandon McCarthy, not a sexy signing by any means but I think A.) He'll come cheap due to injury and playing in Oakland and B.) He seems like a Twins type pitcher.' Yes, he is a pitch to contact, low strike out pitcher

Ryan has been caught in a straight up lie more than once... I'd like to see evidence of this. I'm sure he's guilty of misrepresentations, half-truths, distortions, but "straight up" lies? When he trade Castillo, he said he only traded him cause "I didn't anticipate re-signing him at the end [of the season], so we ended up getting a couple players in return before October,". Then a day or two later he said he would have traded him even if he wasn't a pending free agent. So one of those statements is a lie.

If you need a change in philosophies, that's rarely gonna happen if people are being rained the same way...as often happens in organizations

Didn't the Twins have money to spend on pitching this offseason? They dropped payroll by 18M...

Ryan has been caught in a straight up lie more than once...

and that's good, they have depth, but is there any word, they're going to move Andrus out. Profar will be 20 next season? I mean, heck, I'd like to get him...just not sure Texas would trade him...at least not yet.

I keep hearing Andrus' name brought up. Is he on the trading block and I've missed it?

He's now the 3B coach for the Phillies... He was the Pacific Coast League Manager of the Year in 2010 and the Minor League Manager of the Year in 2011

It would be nice if, for once, we actually had a spring training battle where the winner was labeled the starter...

Haren had an off year for sure...or off first half...but I'd label him as a guy who has ACE stuff. He's a guy you normally get over 200 IP near 200Ks and an ERA low to mid 3.00s. I'd take that especially from a AL pitcher

'Florimon's OOZ plays as a percentage of balls hit into his zone was virtually the same as Hardy's - .261 to .260' Plays outside of zone (OOZ) aren't including in the RZR at all...it's to be looked at separately as part of the overall defensive measure. Florimon had 111 balls hit into his zone. He made 84 plays, but those plays were made on ball in zone (BIZ). That gives you the .757 RZR. His 29 plays OOZ aren't included in the 84 plays. It's a separate issue. OOZ is purposely excluded. So that 29 plays made OOZ isn't part of the 84 plays and therefore isn't a percentage of overall plays he made in his zone.

Does anyone remember what our starting rotation was supposed to be when we broke camp? Wasn't it, in no particular order, Pavano, Liriano, Marquis, Blackburn and Baker (who never pitched this season) How many of those guys, along with guys like Swarzak and Duensing, were Ryan's and how many were Smiths? As we go into next season, we have one sure thing...Diamond. Is he Smith's or Ryan's?

' I wonder if La Velle E. Neal has to deal with people correcting him on his blog at the startribune.com.' Well, considering that, before the 2012 season, he didn't even know Dozier was a shortstop, I would say he does :-)

Yeah, I thought we were talking range...but yeah, I get that a lot of people throw out stats as meaningless when they don't support their views. In any event, we also have Florimon who averaged 40+ errors per 162 games in the minors...and jumped right on board with making errors when he was brought up. I don't really judge people on errors or fielding percentage, but that's still a huge amount. Couple that with poor range, and I doubt he's good enough to be a major league starting shortstop.