ThePuck

what are you talking about? Answer for Quote 1: I actually didn't say Mauer catches almost as much as anyone. I said when looking at his games played from '05-'12, Mauer's games played is in line with most players whose primary position is catcher. I didn't say he was playing catcher all those games. And that quote had to do with talking about the idea he's so injury plagued. In any event, look at the amount of games catchers in each season from '05 to '12. Go to ESPN and look at games played for catchers. The most played this year was 135. 131 last year was the most. Do you see a pattern or do you believe all the catchers across baseball are getting hurt for that many games all the time and that's why they aren't in the lineup? They aren't? Hmm, then way aren't they playing 162? Cause catchers get rested by their managers to help protect them from the rigors of the position. Gardy is no different. Doesn't mean they actually need it or are hurt. Answer for Quote 2: Do you not see that Gardy plays subs and changes lineups and positions constantly? How many different lineups in the first 20 games this season, 17, 18? Was that out of necessity? Gardy has always played backups way too much and moved lineups and positions all around. Have you not seen that over the last several years? Answer for Quote 3: The Doctors came out and said that the physical exertion of playing both side could bring back symptoms. It was discussed at length. Did you not read it. Here's a taste for an article entitled, 'Morneau: Being DH is protection from concussion symptoms': 'Twins slugger Justin Morneau said he might be used more at designated hitter and less at first base to decrease the chance of a re-occurrence of the concussion problems that prematurely ended his past two seasons. "Not to get into the medical stuff too much, but [the doctors] said before that if my body gets worn down too much, I'm more vulnerable to having the symptoms reoccur," Morneau said Monday, after he hit a double off the center field wall in a 10-4 spring training loss to the Tampa Bay Rays. "The chance of going backwards is when I get worn down. I can have the fogginess and the headaches, and all that stuff can return, if my system gets too worn down. Then I'm in a vulnerable position." Do you need more? And answer for quote #4...who filled in for Morneau when the team felt he need it? Mauer quite a bit. Was is because Mauer couldn't play catcher, since he was healthy this year, or because he was the best option to go to 1B based on the roster most of the year? Who plugged Doumit in at catcher instead of Mauer while Mauer was healthy and playing 1B? Gardy. I suppose I could have given the short answer...which is I pay attention...these things are obvious if one pays attention.

I'm hoping Stanek drops to us and we take him, but I can see us taking Meadows if he's available.

I don't know what Natch means, but thanks. You as well :-)

'#1 - how many teams need three catchers? #2 - I know it's a fact of the position that catchers get time off, but that only proves my point that Fielder has more offensive value. He's in the lineup more. ' response to #1: We only needed three catchers cause Gardy love Butera and is scared to have Doumit and Mauer playing at the same time. That's a Gardy thing. We didn't really need three catchers until Gardy decided to play Doumit in the OF or DH while Mauer was at 1B. That's a Gardy juggling lineup thing. Doumit should only be playing catcher or DH...he should be nowhere near the OF...and he should only DH when Mauer is catching. response to #2: Were we just talking offensive value or overall value? One could argue a catcher is more valuable, even if he plays in 20-30 games less, because he's involved in every pitch. And then there's the time used for game plan with the pitcher. In any event, I'm not sure there's any more to throw out there. You may be right, I don't know, but it's interesting enough to think about and not, IMO, cut and dry. There's a lot of factors involved in value and what affects it. I enjoyed the debate, thanks

I'm just trying to give possible reasons why...it's all speculation since I don't have the write-up. It could just be that every year there are new prospects popping up and he just slipped down. One could also speculate he was too high to begin with at 19.

I get that, but catchers don't play 157 games a year anyway. By the nature of the position, they just don't play that many games. This year the most games started at catcher was 136. Last year, it was 131. Every team needs another catcher, not just us. Not only that, but above I showed why he played so little at catcher this year. On top of that, you seem to be saying that the only time Mauer hasn't been in the lineup is when he's been hurt. That's not the case. As a catcher, Gardy just rested him as other managers do with their catchers.

You need to be able to draft well, develop well, and be willing to part with the other players before they get too expensive. TB has built serious teams with around 60M and less over the last 5 years while playing in a much tougher division and taking in a lot less revenue

If position isn't taken into account, or defensive ability, maybe. But comparing offensive output from a player who is primarily a catcher (or has been and likely will be again) to offensive output from a 1B straight across the board is something I try not to do (and Fielder plays a poor 1B too). For me, it's similar to the MVP debate this year. The two top candidates are a leadoff hitting CF and #3 hitting corner IF (in this case a 1B playing 3B...badly). If we don't dive too far into advanced metrics, we see Cabrera was #1 in BA, Trout #2. Trout #3 in OBP, Cabrera #4. Cabrera #1 in SLG%, Trout #3. Cabrera #1 in OPS, Trout #2. Trout #1 in OPS+, Cabrera #2. Pretty darn close there, no? Really close to each other in every one of those categories...Trout getting him in OBP and OPS+, Cabrera getting him in BA, SLG% and OPS. But again, one is a leadoff hitting CF and one is a corner IF. If we take into account position, isn't the CF more valuable? Then there is the base running and defense comparisons and Trout kills him in those as well. As far as the Mauer, Fielder debate, there are other factors. How much revenue does having the hometown boy done good bring into the team in tickets sales, concession sales from people who attend games, merchandise, etc. Especially in a place like Minny whose people REALLY take pride in home state players. How much does that need to be taken into account?

What is curious to me is what motivated BA to drop him from 19th to 45th AFTER his solid season at Beloit. Could be that there was a big influx of talent that pushed him down the list. I don't know. If someone has the pre-2011 Baseball America Handbook that has his write-up, please let me know the reasoning. I didn't see him at all on the BA top 100 list dated 21 Feb '12. On the BA top 100 list dated 23 Feb 2011 he was 45th (as I'm sure you knew), but I can't get the write-up as to why he dropped from 19 in 2010 to 45 in 2011. Maybe cause 1st round draft picks that aren't developing well enough for the owning organization to promote them earlier is part of it. I mean, he had already spent a year in Beloit...and he had to spend another year there? Yes he did well, but perhaps BA wonders why the organization themselves didn't feel he was worthy of a promotion to A+ or AA during the 2010 season?

'I think the interesting thing above is that Fangraphs and Kab actually agree most of the time. Pretty much all of the at the top are as he describes. The difference is once we get in to the brutally awful contracts. Again, Kab and Fangraphs agree on half of them. Perez, Silva, Zito, Suppan, and Schmidt were truly awful contracts. Where they begin to disagree is on Lackey, Lowe, Burnett, and Meche.' Some will only trust info if it agrees with what they already believe and they'll discard it if it doesn't. Even if it's the same source. I'm not saying that's happening here, but you see it all the time.

I'm not sure I can agree with the idea Fielder propelled them to the W Series. First, they had a better record last year and second, they scored quite a few more runs last year as well. I believe the difference between this year's playoffs for them and last year's had more to do with the starting pitching they've had this postseason. That doesn't mean I disagree with spending money, but I'm not sure signing Fielder was the move that put them over the top.

From '05-'10, only one player whose primary position is catcher played in more games than Mauer and none had more plate appearances. His games played per season from '05-12 are in line with most players whose primary position is catcher with the exception of two seasons. I believe his injury history is a bit over-exaggerated, especially when you consider he'd likely have a lot more games played if Gardy didn't feel the need to play his substitute players so much. Situations like Sub-Sundays, day after night games, and the last game of a 3 game series where we already won the first 2 games. This year, Mauer played quite a bit 1B, but that happened for a few reasons. 1: Doctors said if Morneau played both sides too much it could cause concussion symptoms to show up. 2. Mauer was the best option to fill in for Morneau. 3. With Doumit on the roster, it gave them a good option for replacement and then later, with Butera, he need his playing time too. I have no doubt Mauer could have played more catcher not only this season, but other seasons as well, but this year, with having three catchers and Morneau who needed rest, made sense to play Mauer at 1B more.

So, when I read this chart, I interpreted it to mean it was saying that CJ Wilson was worth 11M this year. Buehrle less than 10M this year, Yarvish worth 22.9M this year, Lackey less than 8M a year over the last 3 years, Burnett less than 11M per year overt the last 4 years, Lowe less than 10M over the last 4 years and so on. Of course those are averages, some years they were worth more and some were worth less. Did they explain this was based only on pitchers who had already hit the free agent market and what was to be expected value of pitchers on the free agent market as opposed to all pitchers?

The way I remember it, people were excited about his defense, since he had been quite an impressive defender up to that point.

You're certainly entitled to your opinion. Not sure why a simple compliment of a post inspired such effort by you to chastise a person you don't even know. I guess manners takes a backseat to trying to force one's opinion on to someone else. Your opinion of his post is just that, your opinion...nothing more. Perhaps some tolerance of other people's opinion is in order...or you actually debate HIM on his post rather than chastising someone for making a simple compliment.

That's very funny!

I was complimenting the research and the fact that he uses fangraphs, as opposed to so many who shy away from it. I wasn't picking either side of the argument or knocking kab. It's their debate, I'm not in it. I will continue to occasionally compliment posts that I think took a lot of effort and thought as I see fit, but I appreciate your suggestion

Which is cool - I think what kab is suggesting is that this particular interpretation of "value" that is being floated here is as questionable as some of the defensive metrics that often don't pass the eye test or have other similar problems. My post really wasn't about kab's argument. It was just an in general type observation...that so many discredit anything other than traditional stats, whether it's because they truly don't believe in the info, or because the info doesn't support their view. I haven't seen enough of kab's posts to make any kind of true observation on where he stands on new metrics.

It's one thing to value alternative metrics that tell a better story of a player's success, it's another to ignore results in favor of those metrics. From what I can see the "value" stat is cobbled together from other stats that are a bit more theoretical than OPS or WHIP. I would suggest that if a stat says that Lowe was worth 40M - it may need some tinkering. I use fangraphs more for defensive metrics than anything else, myself...but I look at ALL info...what my eyes tells me, most traditional stats (though not all), new metrics, etc...everything in order to try and get the best info I can.

Nice post jharaldson. I also like to use Fangraphs. Though some try and discredit the info there, the people who gather that info do it for a living, watching all the players play all their games and evaluating everyone based on the same criteria with unbias eyes. While some of the info probably needs tweaking, at least it's fair across the board. I think it's pretty easy for some to discredit it as geek speak, or whatever, but that happens anytime change is brought about. Someone even mentioned WAR and WHIP together as ridiculous. If you discredit WHIP as nonsense, might a well discredit old school stats like ERA and batting average while you're at it.

Nope, but it's group think now..and if you follow group think and it doesn't work out, you aren't blamed...casue it's what everyone else would have done. If you go against popular practice and it doesn't work out, OH BOY! :-)

No worries :-)

'So using the 1991 World Series team as an excuse NOT to go after free agents is acceptable, but using the same team to show they won the World Series by being agressive in the offseasons is unacceptable?' That's not my argument. I'm saying just cause he did something over 20 years ago doesn't mean he's going to now. He hasn't shown a willingness to do that in a long time.. On top of that, he's already saying he won't do it this coming year. He SHOULD do that. I'm agreeing with you on what he should do...

and our minor league system is hurting, especially in the pitching department Pretty sure the Twins signed the 2nd best free agent pitcher in 1991, who knows if they would have gone after Clemons, but it wasn't like he was leaving Boston at that time. Not sure who insisted on the 1 year deal for Jack Morris, but seeing as Terry Ryan learned everything he knew from Andy McPhail, it would seem likely the Twins were pleased it wasn't a multi-year contract. $3.7M isn't a lot for a pitcher these days, but it was likely a top 5 salary for a pitcher seeing as Morris was getting paid more than Dave Stewart who signed his deal the year before. Of course Chili Davis' 2 year $2.5M deal was also likely a top 10 free agent deal that off-season. Add Mike Pagliarulo and throw in the trade that brought former Cy Young winner Steve Bedrosian and his $1.3M contract to the Twins and it's hard to argue they weren't pretty agressive heading into that season. That was over 20 years ago.

IMO, pitching is our biggest need by far and our best chips need to be used for that. I understand you disagree, but I'm not seeing how needing 3-4 quality starting pitchers doesn't make it our biggest need. We don't have it in the minors, and Terry Ryan already said we aren't gonna pay for them in FA, so how else are we going to get it if not by tradinge for them with one or two of our best chips?