jokin

It might have been nice to have one extra free power-swinger either in the lineup tonight- or as a pinch hitter- that had the capability of putting one over the Green Monster.

Somebody, especially in the AL, will be hankering for a bat. The Twins have 2, both of whom are also relatively inexpensive- they would bring something fairly decent in return if they continue to hit anywhere near their current production levels.

There's always the Butera example to work with. The Twins can do much better than a Sulbaran-type in return for Suzuki.

Lots of good pitchers and a couple position players.

Originally Posted by birdwatcher I apologize then. I misunderstood the limits imposed on the discussion. I was being unreasonable in discussing the trade itself and Worley's contribution to his abysmal showing with the Twins. My previous response was deleted, but it's clear now (and hopefully the coast is clear:th_alc:!), that you were correct in your closing sentence and now you finally get where the other side was coming from. Thanks for sticking with it, I can put up with the recriminations if it leads to TD community harmony in the end.

1) No question, after 2 decent starts, Correia has bought himself some more starts here. 2) This goes both ways. Why are they looking for "consistency" if the competition makes it not worth evaluating to begin with? 3) Yes. This is the "mystery" part in this whole affair. 4) Off-topic. Why do you keep bringing this up? FYI- The debate in the Worley thread is about Worley, not about Revere, not about May, only about Worley.

Mike Berardino @MikeBerardino · 1m Mauer 0 for 2 with a K vs. Koji. Hammer 0 for 5 with 4 Ks. A Ah, but Kendrys: 3 for 5, 3B (really?), HR, 3 RBI.

Nope, but maybe sooner rather than later. May finishes his night, throwing 120 pitches in 8.1 IP. He gave up 2 walks, 1 hit and one ER in the 9th before being relieved by Aaron Thompson.

Yup. My thoughts, in breaking down Gardy's cryptic comments, was that he provided some direction on how much power he wields in this situation, as he seemingly was actually saying: "My hands are tied here....that call is one step above my pay grade."

May update, through 8 innings in Pawtucket- 8 IP, still 2 hits, 11 K, 103 pitches w/ 75 strikes. Sure, "there's a lot involved," in making this decision, Gardy. But what more does this guy need to show?

Meanwhile, Trevor May has completed 7 innings against Pawtucket. He's only given up 2 hits (to Mookie Betts), with no runs scored, no walks and 9 Ks (including one K vs. Victorino).

While all eyes are on Kevin Correia tonight as he goes up against the Red Sox and hoping to protect his spot in the Twins rotation.....at the same time, Trevor May goes up against the PawSox, that is, the AAA farm club of Boston, Pawtucket Red Sox. While Correia will have his hands full in Fenway, May will be dealing with 3 very tough customers at the top of the PawSox order, Mookie Betts, a Top 100 MLB prospect, and who appears to have been an absolute steal in the 2011 draft in the 5th round, was recently promoted from AA, and appears to be very close to big league promotion. It doesn't get any easier for May, as Shane Victorino and Will Middlebrooks, both on rehab assignments, are batting #2 and #3. Meanwhile, Mike Berardino notes that Rochester has a "TBD" listed as the starter for Thursday's game. Implications? Samuel Deduno is scheduled to start for the Twins, while it's Logan Darnell's turn for Rochester. Time will only tell what develops here. Gardy was "pressed on the matter" of the pitching success in Rochester, the process involved in pulling the trigger and what it might mean for the near future of the MN Twins: http://blogs.twincities.com/twins/2014/06/16/twinsights-sifting-for-clues-in-the-twins-rotation-mystery/

Good analysis. Worley is what he is, and we pretty much all knew this reality before he was acquired. And yes, this wasn't a crippling move to the Twins fortunes- as one side in this debate wishes to paint the other side as advocating.

It's pointless to respond to you on this as this wasn't the topic being discussed at the time I posted. You're arguing a macro point, some of which I am sympathetic to, but that wasn't part of the original discussion on the micro point of: Vance Worley- Twins organizational success or failure?

I get that help is soon on the way, although probably delayed now at least another year, but what parts of actions taken during the rebuild, with the full intent to actually "rebuild", have been specifically responsible for the success this year? It seems the main success this year is attributable to choosing the "quick fix" option- the veteran Free Agent signings and waiver claims since 2012 (Hughes, Suzuki, Nolasco, Willingham, Morales, Fuld, Nunez) and to players already in the organization before 2010 (including Plouffe 2004, Pinto 2006, Santana 2007, Dozier 2009, Gibson 2009). Escobar could be argued as the primary product of 2014 success from the rebuild, and the Twins were practically forced at gunpoint into making him a starter. Is the then-28 year old rookie, Chris Colabello, signed in 2012, considered a part of the rebuild? The Twins average age for pitchers this year has gone up to 29.8. Put into perspective, this is the oldest the Twins team pitchers have been since 1988, the year after the World Series win- at age 30.0. And the average age has gone up, instead of down in each year in the rebuild: 2014: Average age of 29.8 2013: Average age of 28.3 2012: Average age of 27.8 This year's Twins team batters are actually older than in the veteran-laden year of 2011- 28.1 vs 27.6. fWAR leaderboard for 2014 FA Veterans Hughes 2.3 Willingham 1.4 Suzuki 0.9 Correia 0.7 Nolasco 0.4 Fuld 0.5 Nunez 0.3 Morales 0.2 Deduno 0.1 Pelfrey -0.6 WAR Total 5.6 How many of these FAs are intended to be part of the rebuild that leads to a perenially successful team? Nolasco, and maybe Hughes if the Twins are intent on winning in 2015-16. Pre-rebuld prospects and veterans Dozier 2.7 Plouffe 1.1 Santana 0.9 Pinto 0.2 Hicks -0.1 Bartlett -0.3 Parmelee -0.4 Hermann -0.7 Kubel -0.9 WAR total: 2.5 It's arguable that all of the prospects would have been called up, rebuild or not. Kubel and Bartlett's "contributions" to the rebuild speak for themselves. Rebuild-specific trades for prospects Escobar WAR total 1.7 Here's the one guy that has directly come about from the rebuild- and again his WAR result has happened outside of the Twins expectations for him.

You can repeat this twice, as you did in your wall of type, and it still misses the point of the argument. Who said anything about "blaming it all" on Worley? What "tone" are referring to? We are judging the Worley situation specifically on its own merits (or in this case, the obvious lack thereof), nothing more is being judged here.

You're missing the context of my post....ie, the outcome of Vance Worley's time with the Twins, is inarguably, quite clearly an utter failure. If you wish to allege that the Twins master plan was to put the most horrendous Starting Staff possible on the field to absolutely tank the Twins in 2013- for the third year in a row, causing a massive fall-off in attendance, which in turn, forced the owner for the first time to go public and call the current product an "embarrassment"- all in order to draft Nick Gordon at pick #5 (I don't see how Kohl Stewart comes into play here, whatsover), well then, I guess Terry Ryan must be considered to have engineered quite a trade. I wonder if Terry is scouting as we speak to see if there any other players we can trade for in order to insure future 96-loss-season tanking opportunities?

My response was more to the point of the alleged "indignity" of asking a star player moving around at all. I've never heard Cabrera complain one bit about all of his position movements.

I never used the word "egregious'. The Twins tabbed him as their opening day pitcher in 2013 (and he would have been tabbed at worst, the #2 starter behind a healthy Diamond), not a throw-in. It is silly to pretend that his acquisition and the results don't represent a complete failure- his inability to be in any way effective last year was a big deal to the Twins fortunes in 2013. While Worley probably bears much of the blame, the Twins have to accept responsibility for not recognizing how little chance they had to improve him.

I don't need any "predictive capabilities" to categorically state: The "outcome" of Vance Worley's time with the Twins is quite "clear."

Miguel Cabrera didn't have any problem bouncing around, although he was given the offseason to make the adjustments from LF...to 3rd...to 1st....to 3rd....and back to 1st.

Affiliates!

Add 2 infield plays that were botched and it was a bad day all around: 6) Rosario botched a play at 3rd in the Third that was clearly playable and ruled a hit, but was definitely an old school error. 7) Mauer dropped a foul pop that was ruled no play but was an error.

Caution needed, although laugh out loud funny, applying Sturgeon's Law, I am only 90% certain that this was indeed, a joke.

I guess it went right over the heads of the more serious set....again, as snepp so eloquently stated: "Why so serious?"