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Everything posted by John Bonnes
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Geeking Out: Pitch To Contact and Team Batting
John Bonnes commented on John Bonnes's blog entry in TwinsGeek.com
[ATTACH=CONFIG]4085[/ATTACH]Numbers can be so clean. Until they aren’t. Yesterday we studied strikeouts/game and runs/game for teams and found a “correlation coefficient,” which is a number between -1 and 1. 1 means there is a perfect correlation, like the temperature in Fahrenheit and the temperature in Celsius. -1 means there is a perfectly negative correlation, like the amount I spend and my checking account balance. And 0 means there is no correlation, like the amount I spend and the temperature in Celsius. Unfortunately, the number we found was not 1, 0 or -1. It was .54. So what does that mean? It means it is somewhere in between. Our number shows that strikeouts aren’t everything, but it also shows that they’re something. Can we find something comparable? We can if we look at a different set of correlations. The most obvious place to start is in another realm of baseball – hitting. If we do the same exercise – compare the runs per game a team scores to their basic stats for 150 recent teams, what kind of correlations do we see? (The full results are at the bottom. Also, here is a link to the data.) The strongest is what you might expect – OPS, which has a .96(!) correlation. In fact, it is this crazy high correlation that drives the interest in OPS. The stats which make up OPS – OBP and SLG – also have high correlations: .87 and .92, respectively. The most widely used traditional stats for evaluating offense fall a little lower down the list. Batting average is .76. Home runs are .70. I even worked out HR/AB and HR/PA and they ranked a little lower: .67 and .65. We still haven’t found the stats that have a correlation close to the .54 that K/9 has to runs given up by a pitching staff. The stats closest to that level are At-bats, Walks and Doubles, each of which has a correlation around .60. Converting the last one to a rate statistic, I find that Doubles/At-Bat has a correlation of .547, which is almost dead on. So we might want to evaluate pitchers by strikeouts about the same way we evaluate batters by doubles. For instance, given a choice between two players, one who hits a lot of doubles, and one who doesn’t, we probably want the guy with the doubles. We also might mention how many doubles a player has as a data point to demonstrate that they have extra power. Doubles are far from a worthless item to track. But here is probably what we wouldn’t do. We wouldn’t say a free agent is worthless because he ranked behind others in doubles. We probably wouldn’t comb through an organization’s minor league affiliates and suggest that their hitting philosophy is messed up because none of their teams are hitting a lot of doubles. And we wouldn’t suggest that a team scoring runs won’t be able to maintain their pace because they rank dead last in the league in doubles. The bottom line is that there isn’t a real clean break point here. Strikeouts are important. They might even be the most important stat we can easily evaluate for pitchers, due to a combination of impact and predictability (though we haven’t studied the latter). But it is exceptionally easy to get carried away with strikeouts, and I think most of the sabrmetric community has, including me. It may be time to step back and admit what we don’t know. And acknowledge that clean numbers aren’t always so clean. -
Numbers are so clean. Until they aren’t. Yesterday we studied strikeouts/game and runs/game for teams and found a “correlation coefficient,” which is a number between -1 and 1. 1 means there is a perfect correlation, like the temperature in Fahrenheit and the temperature in Celsius. -1 means there is a perfectly negative correlation, like the amount I spend and my checking account balance. And 0 means there is no correlation, like the amount I spend and the temperature in Celsius. Unfortunately, the number we found was not 1, 0 or -1. It was .54. So what does that mean?[PRBREAK][/PRBREAK] It means it is somewhere in between. Our number shows that strikeouts aren’t everything, but it also shows that they’re something. Can we find something comparable? We can if we look at a different set of correlations. The most obvious place to start is in another realm of baseball – hitting. If we do the same exercise – compare the runs per game a team scores to their basic stats for 150 recent teams, what kind of correlations do we see? (The full results are at the bottom. Also, here is a link to the data.) The strongest is what you might expect – OPS, which has a .96(!) correlation. In fact, it is this crazy high correlation that drives the interest in OPS. The stats which make up OPS – OBP and SLG – also have high correlations: .87 and .92, respectively. The most widely used traditional stats for evaluating offense fall a little lower down the list. Batting average is .76. Home runs are .70. I even worked out HR/AB and HR/PA and they ranked a little lower: .67 and .65. We still haven’t found the stats that have a correlation close to the .54 that K/9 has to runs given up by a pitching staff. The stats closest to that level are at-bats, walks and doubles, each of which has a correlation around .60. Converting the last one to a rate statistic, I find that doubles/at-bat has a correlation of .547, which is almost dead on. So we might want to evaluate pitchers by strikeouts about the same way we evaluate batters by doubles. For instance, given a choice between two players, one who hits a lot of doubles, and one who doesn’t, we probably want the guy with the doubles. We also might mention how many doubles a player has as a data point to demonstrate that they have extra power. Doubles are far from a worthless item to track. But here is probably what we wouldn’t do. We wouldn’t say a free agent is worthless because he was one of the worst at his position in doubles. We probably wouldn’t comb through an organization’s minor league affiliates and suggest that their hitting philosophy is messed up because none of their teams are hitting a lot of doubles. And we wouldn’t suggest that a team scoring lots of runs won’t be able to maintain its pace because it ranks dead last in the league in doubles. Yet we do all of that when talking about strikeouts and pitching. The bottom line is that there isn’t a real clean break point here. Strikeouts are important. They might even be the most important stat we can easily evaluate for pitchers, due to a combination of impact and predictability (though we haven’t studied the latter). But it is exceptionally easy to get carried away with strikeouts, and I think most of the sabrmetric community has, including me. It may be time to step back and admit what we don’t know. And acknowledge that clean numbers aren’t always so clean. ~~~ Below is a complete list of the correlations we have found, both for hitting and for pitching. The hitting ones are compared to runs scored per game, while the pitching ones are compared to the runs given up per game. ~~~
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I uploaded my spreadsheet to Google Docs and provided a link in the story. Thank Willihammer for reminding me we could do that. That BB%-R number is a little alarming. When you say "going back to 2004" are you saying you took all 30 teams and combined each team's numbers back to 2004, so you only have 30 items in your correlation? If so, that doesn't seem like enough to trust, though I don't know what that threshold should be. I did team-years, so I grabbed 30 teams for five year for 150 data points, just because I wanted to have at least that many. (Or it could be that I have an error in my spreadsheet, too. It's certainly possible, which is one of the reasons I provided a link to it.)
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Thanks for that link. If OPS has a .92 correlation, I expect BA is a bit lower, like in the .8 range. But the more general point is that we're pretty good at knowing what additional stats (like OPS) correlate with a team's Runs Scored. The only one that is similar for Runs Against involved "hits," and I think we're poor at predicting hits. (Cracken's research suggests this, though it might be interesting to do some research on that, too.) But we certainly shouldn't treat strikeout rate as anywhere near as important as OPS. They're not in the same solar system.
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By the way, I don't know if I have time tonight, but if I do, I'd like to do a similar study on hitting: what stats correlate closely to the number of runs per game a team scores. This is essentially restating Bill James 30+ year-old research, but I think you find the correlations a LOT higher. If I remember right, batting average (not even OBP or OPS) has a correlation around .90 or something. And we SAVAGE batting average for not being particularly valuable.
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What this quick-and-dirty study shows is similar to what you're saying: strikeouts are good. But they're far from everything and we probably put too much importance on them. This is what is interesting to me about this study: that it demonstrates a logical paradox. I think the root cause of that paradox is that we take sabrmetric studies and generalize them and expand them beyond their findings. The emphasis on strikeouts comes from several different places, but the most recent study that has raised their profile is Voros McCracken's study. But his study didn't really have anything to do with strikeouts. It was about hits. Specifically, what his study showed was that when you account for team defense, there is very little correlation in how many extra or how many fewer hits a pitcher gives up year-to-year. The correlation was something like .25. That seemed low. And I say "seemed" because that .25 doesn't have any real empirical meaning - its not like it means they control 25% of things. It was just a smaller correlation than was expected. (Like in this study.) This led to a more general interpretation - that pitchers can't influence whether balls put in play are hits or outs. That's funny, because McCracken's study proved exactly the opposite - it's not completely random - it's just that they can less than we probably expected. This led to a more general conclusion - HAIL STRIKEOUTS. Partly that was because the importance of strikeouts was something that sabrmetricians had been touting for years, and this seemed like another very large brick in that wall. Finally, you can add to all of this that strikeouts are easy to sum and evaluate. They're much easier than strike percentage or other metrics. So we like to use them because they're readily available and easy to use. But the sum of each of those is that we are probably overemphasizing the importance of strikeouts. Strikeouts aren't that important. We can dance around it all we want, but the numbers aren't lying. Now, one can say "Well, it's the best thing we have." First I'm not sure that's true. But the more obvious logical reply to that is "Well, then keep looking." Instead, we seem to cling to them, perhaps at the expense of better research. And we certainly proclaim in our criticism and praise that they mean a lot more than they do. And then ignore that a team that is middle of the road in runs per game is dead last (and by quite a bit) in strikeouts. We call it lucky or small sample size or whatever. The truth is, it isn't that unusual.
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Geeking Out: Pitch To Contact And Team Pitching
John Bonnes commented on John Bonnes's blog entry in TwinsGeek.com
[ATTACH=CONFIG]4070[/ATTACH]Pitch To Contact - at this point, I think we can go with capital letters, don't you? That phrase and philosophy have drawn a fair amount of criticism, a chunk of which is just snark, but some of which at least tries to ground itself in statistical analysis. In a thread started yesterday on Twins Daily, there was a lot of debate on Pitch To Contact, what it means and what we really know about its effects. When Bill James unveiled several new tools for analyzing baseball, the most fundamental ones usually started by analyzing team stats. For instance, by studying teams wins and losses, he found a correlation with runs scored and runs given up. And by studying team runs scored, he discovered a correlation between getting on base and total bases. From there, it's a short step to assuming that if you get a lot of players who get on base or hit for power, you'll score more runs. But how about teams that don't give up many runs? If we take a look at teams for the last few years, can we see a trend in those that don't give up many runs? And does that trend match or contradict a "Pitch To Contact" philosophy. So let's do a very quick-and-dirty back-of-the-napkin study. I looked at 150 teams, or all the teams from the last five years, ranked them by runs/game and then searched the stats that most closely correlate with it. We can do this using the "CORREL" function in Excel, which generates a coefficient between 0 and 1. 1 means a perfect correlation. 0 means it is entirely random. The full results are at the bottom, but here is a summary. Those who are critical of the Pitch To Contact philosophy are usually reacting to the reduced emphasis it puts on striking people out. The K/9 correlation to runs per game is .54, one of the lower correlations on the list. That's lower than I would have expected. Clearly, having a staff that strikes out a ton of batters isn't especially important. The defenders of the Pitch To Contact philosophy like to say that it's essentially saying "throw strikes." Presumably, that would imply not walking people, something that the Twins have certainly emphasized. However, the correlation of BB/9 to R/G is about the same: .56. Like strikeouts, now walking players is good, but not great. Combing the two gets us a little closer. SO/BB has a .69 correlation. Close to that correlation is something else the Twins have been especially good at this year: not giving up home runs. HR/9 has a .65 correlation. But the winner, without question, is hits. H/9 has a correlation of .88, crazy high comparable to the other traditional stats in the list. That might seem obvious - if you don't give up hits, you shouldn't give up runs. So the question changes....how do you avoid giving up hits? Well, it isn't just "strike people out". In fact, we proved just the opposite - that's fine, but a very small part of the story. So the difference is...defense? Luck? Secret sauce? The truth is we don't know what it is. Sabrmetrics is still remarkably poor at predicting pitching. But we know what it isn't - it isn't as easy as gathering Ks. And whatever philosophy one adopts, its goal better be limiting hits. -
Pitch To Contact - at this point, I think we can go with capital letters, don't you? That phrase and philosophy have drawn a fair amount of criticism, a chunk of which is just snark, but some of which at least tries to ground itself in statistical analysis. In a thread started yesterday on Twins Daily, there was a lot of debate on Pitch To Contact, what it means and what we really know about its effects. When Bill James unveiled several new tools for analyzing baseball, the most fundamental ones usually started by analyzing team stats.[PRBREAK][/PRBREAK] For instance, by studying teams' wins and losses, he found a correlation with runs scored and runs given up. And by studying team runs scored, he discovered a correlation between getting on base and total bases. From there, it's a short step to assuming that if you get a lot of players who get on base or hit for power, you'll score more runs. But how about teams that don't give up many runs? If we take a look at teams for the last few years, can we see a trend in those that don't give up many runs? And does that trend match or contradict a "Pitch To Contact" philosophy. So let's do a very quick-and-dirty back-of-the-napkin study. I looked at 150 teams, or all the teams from the last five years, ranked them by runs/game (R/G) and then searched the stats that most closely correlate with it. I did this using the "CORREL" function in Excel, which generates a coefficient between 0 and 1. 1 means a perfect correlation. 0 means it is entirely random. The full results are at the bottom, but here is a summary. Those who are critical of the Pitch To Contact philosophy are usually reacting to the reduced emphasis it puts on striking people out. The K/9 correlation to runs per game is .54, one of the lower correlations on the list. That's lower than I would have expected. Clearly, having a staff that strikes out a ton of batters isn't especially important. The defenders of the Pitch To Contact philosophy like to say that it's essentially saying "throw strikes." Presumably, that would imply not walking people, something that the Twins have certainly emphasized. However, the correlation of BB/9 to R/G is about the same: .56. Like strikeouts, not walking players is good, but not great. Combing the two gets us a little closer. SO/BB has a .69 correlation. Close to that correlation is something else the Twins have been especially good at this year: not giving up home runs. HR/9 has a .65 correlation. But the winner, without question, is hits. H/9 has a correlation of .88, crazy high compared to the other traditional stats in the list. That might seem obvious - if you don't give up hits, you shouldn't give up runs. So the question changes....how do you avoid giving up hits? Well, it isn't just "strike people out". In fact, we proved just the opposite - that's fine, but a very small part of the story. So the difference is...defense? Luck? Secret sauce? The truth is we don't know what it is. Sabrmetrics is still remarkably poor at predicting pitching. But we know what it isn't - it isn't as easy as gathering Ks. And whatever philosophy one adopts, its goal better be limiting hits. ~~~ Here is a link to the spreadsheet to check things or play with it yourself: https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B-8jvp4eyF3CdDBpeFZHLTZtcVk/edit?usp=sharing ~~~ And here are the final numbers.... Stat Correl R/G 1.00 R 1.00 ERA 0.99 ER 0.99 WHIP 0.93 H/9 0.88 H 0.86 ERA+ -0.81 BF 0.80 SO/BB -0.69 L 0.66 W-L% -0.66 W -0.66 HR 0.66 HR/9 0.65 tmSHO -0.65 SO -0.57 BB/9 0.56 SO/9 -0.54 #Pitch 0.54 BB 0.53 SV -0.53 IP -0.51 cgSHO -0.36 GF 0.32 CG -0.32 HBP 0.27 WP 0.27 BK 0.20 PitchAge -0.13 IBB 0.01
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Rizzo Signing a Model for the Twins?
John Bonnes commented on RedBull34's blog entry in Blog SgtSchmidt11
So Rizzo is 23, but has spent 2+ years beating up AAA pitching? Any idea why he wasn't called up sooner? -
I'm the Away Team - Orioles at Twins (Games 32-34)
John Bonnes commented on Axel Kohagen's blog entry in Blog Axel Kohagen
And Rammstein seems like an appropriate post-game Twins loss soundtrack. -
Twins 2013 Mock Draft Aggregate Predictions
John Bonnes commented on Thrylos's blog entry in Thrylos' Blog - select Tenth Inning Stretch posts
This is awesome Thrylos. Thank you for sharing it. It is feeling like the 4th pick is kind of wide open right now. -
Article: Weekly Links-N-Thinks
John Bonnes replied to Cody Christie's topic in Twins Daily Front Page News
I love that Kirby's initial scouting card says he had "an outside chance" of being a major league player. Thanks for linking to that. -
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Gleeman and the Geek, Ep 93: 5000 Caolorie Mothers
John Bonnes commented on John Bonnes's blog entry in TwinsGeek.com
[ATTACH=CONFIG]4049[/ATTACH]The Geek is in New York, so Aaron and special guest co-host Parker Hageman talk about whether the Twins are a legitimately decent team or a mirage, Joe Mauer's hot streak and high strikeout rate, funneling food into your face to become a star, Kyle Gibson's timetable, Mother's Day hijinks, Vance Worley's struggles, Glen Perkins being a nerd again, the pros and cons of cursing, and updating the bar-buying plans. Here are: the podcasts the rss feed if you want to subscribe and the podcast on iTunes. Or, just click on the link below: -
Mauer's career line in Fenway (87 plate appearances): .324/.425/.568. His BA is about the same, but power is amped up quite a bit. He has 9 doubles (in 74 AB) and 3 HR. that's a pretty small sample size , but it's possible he would be perceived as a much different hitter if he had half his games in Fenway.
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Article: Which Team's Aces Did the Twins Miss?
John Bonnes replied to Cody Christie's topic in Twins Daily Front Page News
- players chosen before the Twins could get them - 9 - players chosen in the 1st round after Twins picked - 5 - players in the 2nd round - 3 - players after the 2nd round - 7 - international signings - 5 -
Article: Which Team's Aces Did the Twins Miss?
John Bonnes replied to Cody Christie's topic in Twins Daily Front Page News
I count nine of them that were drafted before the Twins could even draft. It makes me wonder if maybe there is something to using that 4th overall pick in the draft on a pitcher, even if there is a little bit "better" player on the board. I'd be interesting in seeing how many of these guys fall into each category: - players chosen before the Twins could get them - players chosen in the 1st round - players in teh 2nd round - players after the 2nd round - international signings. -
I love these personal reflections you do. Thank you.
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I liked this post very much too. Well done.
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Actually, it wasn't. It was Jeff Moorad. I've screwed that up in the past too.
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Game Thread: Twins @ Tigers, 5/1 - 12:08pm
John Bonnes replied to Brock Beauchamp's topic in Archived Game Threads
4 IP and a goose egg in that 2nd column for the Tigers. Pretty nice start for Diamond. -
Ranger/Twins - Punch for Punch (Games 18-21)
John Bonnes commented on Axel Kohagen's blog entry in Blog Axel Kohagen
Wish my MLB app could pick up games from the past. I'd settle for being able do download radio calls of games that have been played.

