Riverbrian

I agree it's a complicated discussion and I also think that Chief is right when he says that not everyone would have handled Byron Buxton the same way and I believe that is hard to find precedent because the circumstances surrounding Byron are unique. However, I'm not sure if you are correct assuming that it usually happens at the beginning of the career ala Kris Bryant and then tapers off. I believe the Kris Bryant cases are hit you between the eyes obvious and are usually more publicized as a result but I'm guessing you are going to find larger doses of it a year or two down the line. Players get called up and sent down and called up again more often than the rare player who starts his career and never sees the minors again. My theory is that you are going to find lots of cases where a player could have been called up on June 1st only to have a player with less potential called up because the front office can see on the spreadsheet that they gain the extra year by waiting 8 days. When that happens, it is rarely publicized because not many are watching the service time clock. The Rockies might call up a Matt McBride instead of Charlie Blackmon until Charlie clears that mark. I'm doing calculations by hand because I can't find a website that will break it down for you and if there isn't a website doing the work... who is going to do the work. The front offices are, the agents are, but is the general public doing the math so they can see how the hot dogs are made? Just a theory

No... You provided alternative possibilities to my possibilities. . Neither of us have proven anything. If we had proof, we could probably get compensation for that proof from the MLBPA or MLB Commissioners office.

I also want to be very clear. That I responded to Kelly Vance asking him to provide a team that doesn’t treat players like cattle. I even acknowledged in the post that cattle was his term not mine. You responded with the Rockies. I responded with potential service time decisions made by the Rockies. Even said it doesn’t prove anything. You responded that I didn’t prove that they were treated poorly and that was never my point. For clarity: My point is that all teams make service time decisions all the time. If they don’t they are making a mistake and the CBA basically encourages teams to strongly factor service time into their decisions.

Colvin and Cuddyer also played 1B and Helton was injured quite a bit. Also, Gonzalez and Fowler player 131 games in the OF. You also don't mention that the Rockies played Andrew Brown and Eric Young Jr. in the OF more than Charlie Blackmon. The Rockies were 45-72 and when Blackmon was called up. Eddie Butler was on the 40 man. I'm not making the claim that any team is treating anybody well or terrible. I am claiming that all front offices are making service time considerations. You are making the claim that the Twins are not treating players well. (Buxton).

Oh I'm looking.

If I'm Joe... I've come so far with such a short time to go. I wouldn't waive those 10-5 rights for any amount of money... And any amount of money isn't going to be paid to even come close to a last temptation for Mauer. If I'm Joe... I'm retiring as a Twin, It will be the only team I play for! This is extremely rare in this day and age and admirable. If I'm the GM... there is no way I would trade Joe and there is no way I even suggest it to his agent and there is no way that I would even ask Joe to check the temp of the water. If I'm the GM... I'm starting to think about where his statue should be placed outside the stadium and also making sure that the sculptor makes it taller than the tiny Calvin Griffith statue.

I'm doing it by hand so my math may be a little off but I'm close. Charlie Blackmon: 2011 June 7 - Contract Selected by the Rockies - MLB Debut July 7 - Charlie broke his foot running the bases at Turner Field in Atlanta and is placed on the 15 day DL. July 15 - He is transferred to the 60 day DL. Since the injury occured on the MLB Roster. He Accrues Service time. Running Total 0.114 2012 Charlie begins the season on the DL. April 13 - He begins rehab with AAA Colorado Springs April 14 - He is optioned to Colorado Springs Running Total 0.121 Charlie isn't recalled to the Bigs until August 18th and he remains on the roster until the end of the year. Running Total 0.167 Doesn't prove anything but the timing was certainly unfortunate for Charlie as the Rockies gain an extra year. BTW... Charlie did sign an extension... At age 32, 6 years/106 Million dollars that includes a player option for the final two years... not a club option -- it's a player option that gives him the right to opt out... Not the club. I'd sign that to at that age. He didn't get a hometown discount. Carlos Gonzalez signed for less than Logan Morrison signed with us. Then there's the case of Eddie Butler... Eddie was top ranked pitching prospect much like Byron Buxton... More so than Charlie Blackmon. Eddie Butler 2014 - Running Total 0.55 2015 - Eddie Butler is sent down to Albuquerque on August 14th and isn't a September recall. He remained healthy and never spent any time on the DL... as a matter of fact, on the very last game of the year for the Isotopes. Eddie Butler was the starting pitcher. Running Total 0.144 Nolan Arenado Nolan at the end of this year will be at 5.155 because the Rockies decided to start Chris Nelson at 3B to begin 2013. Nolan was called up on April 28th, Chris Nelson was DFA's April 28th. I believe the Rockies said that he needed some time to work on his defense. This was a good move by the Rockies because he would be a free agent this year and he has already told the press that he is sick of losing. https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/mlb/columnist/bob-nightengale/2018/07/01/nolan-arenado-rockies-losing-free-agency/749138002/ All teams watch the service time when making decisions. If they didn't, they wouldn't be doing their jobs.

I’m sure you are correct and I have no idea what teams have the reputation and I’d be willing to bet that player B feels differently than Player C and D and E. Player D just might not care at all and player E might be troubled because his brother was cut by the organization in A ball. In the end, I’m pretty sure all 30 teams are going to act on their best interest and the players will act on their best interest. Any team that acts on the players behalf first is going to have Trevor Plouffe playing 3B for them until they are 45. I’m not worried the Twins will be able sign the next Ricky Nolasco type to an FA deal and I’ve always been worried about the Twins being able to sign a Manny Machado type and Buxton doesn’t change that.

Is this an ethics lesson that I'm receiving? Give me an example of a team that doesn't treat them like cattle. Cattle being your definition not mine.

I’ll have more time to better explain myself at lunch or tonight. I’ll just touch on one point briefly. Yes the NL has to make more in game adjustments. The Dodgers and Cubs are different. They are flexible with starting lineups and all teams have injuries to adjust to and that is why flexibility is important. The bottom line is this: It’s enivitable. The majority of teams need to get out of the 80’s. Starters don’t go as long as they used to which increases the bullpen use. On top of that bullpens are changing which also increases the need for bullpen use. You need more bullpen slots to accommodate and this leads to fewer position spots. Teams have no choice and some teams are stubbornly clinging to the way it was done before. It’s inevitable. The Twins might as well go all in now and catch up to the Dodgers and Cubs.

1. Molitor embraced flexibility in the same way that the majority of managers have embraced flexibility. They keep a utility guy on the bench. 2. See the Dodgers... look at how they move players around. That is position flexibility. Molly has not moved these guys all over the place. 3. I have never seen Tyler Austin play OF so I speak of his OF defense. However, he has played more OF than 1B in the minor leagues. At the major league level, the Yankees have a full outfield and an opening at 1B. Also the Yankees haven't been one of the teams to embrace positions flexibility. If you assume that you will see Austin out in the OF, I hope you are right because I'm not sure what Molitor is waiting for. 4. I don't make that assumption, I assume that we won't see Austin in the OF. My assumption is based on Molitor just not being that creative and we have had 4 games with Rosario. During those 4 games, Austin has been the DH 3 times and sat once. 3 of those games were against the Rangers with no playoff implications or playoff integrity to protect. Robbie Grossman played OF 3 times and Johnny Field twice instead. 5. I'm not sure that I'm seeing the benefit of consistency in our IF. It sounds like a smart thing to say but is it really happening in our IF. 6. My personal opinion is that he is walking the line... But it's the wrong line.

I'm not ripping Byron Buxton. I'm ripping the person who played him through migraines, a broken toe and various things to the tune of an 4 OPS+ and still started him 26 out of his 28 games when he was on the active 25 man roster. I'm ripping the same person who played Logan Morrison through what I'm told was a painful hip impingement while he produced a 73 OPS+. Buxton just lost a year of service time and Morrison is going to sign a minor league contract next year and we are out of contention. The strategy of playing through the pain was a complete failure with real world consequences to the team and the players, if anybody wants to claim injuries were the reason. I blame the manager who made out the lineup cards or the front office who told him to do it or the meeting of everyone that reached a consensus of such. We have a 25 and 40 man roster so we had options. The names and past history of the options does not matter to me, they were hand chosen to play in case of injury, poor play or social media gaffes. In Morrison and Buxton we had both injury and poor play and they still kept the every day job while remaining active and producing poorly. I'm not blaming Buxton, I just want the year back.

I'm not defending it yet. I'm not calling it BS either. But I haven't had a few cold ones either.

I agree that Molitor's comments were perfect.

I agree with this without reservation. The way he plays is currently the best thing about his game.

Now that you have revealed your point. In my opinion, you have provided a legitimate alternate direction to the path they chose. Maybe instead.. they just make a bet on Byron Buxton. Byron we are going to place a bet on you right now. We will buy up those arbitration years plus a couple more and then roll the dice. I agree that is a legit course of action. However... We have X factors again. We don't know if they didn't try to extend Byron and were turned down by the agent. It comes down the agent and team agreeing on how much of a bet they are willing to make. You have to remember that the agent and player are also capable of placing a bet on themselves as well and therefore turn down a reasonable offer in order to secure a bigger pay day down the road.

Because we know most of the X factors. Age and a reasonable assumption of cost based on past arbitration cases that pretty much set the standard for future arbitration cases. All dependent on the Big X Factor of course... Will he perform?

The answer isn't simple. I sense you are trying to set me up for the big hammer and I apologize for not co-operating.

If the Twins are dumb enough to watch a crash and burn in 2018 and repeat the process thinking that would never happen again. They deserve everything that comes to them. If Buxton is the future of this franchise... You should be pleased... We just got another year of him.

Depends on a lot of factors. Things like Age and Contract are determining factors. If you are talking about the 6 year free agent deal that he will sign with any of the other 29 teams because he won't sign with us. He will be 29 which is the beginning of the "Decline Phase" and the Yankees out bid the Braves with a 180 million dollar deal over 6 years. If that is what you were asking? His 4 years at maybe 50 Million tops through arbitration during his peak years is going to be WAY MORE valuable than the 6 at 180 million as he ages. If you are asking about value strictly from an on-field production standpoint. According to the tables. Buxton should be at peak performance in year 3 of the 4 years of control we now have. According to the tables... 3 of his 4 most productive years will now be under Twins control. If you are asking something else... I don't understand the question. It's about Value. Ethics are a legitimate argument but like it or not, the Twins have increased his potential value to the Twins, if Byron Buxton is able to increase his personal value by actually performing, is in his best interest to do so... even if he is mad at us.

Alright... This is going too far. They can't guarantee him a starting job to make amends. Are you asking Jake Cave to compete with the mythical what Byron Buxton should be hitting or are you asking Jake Cave to compete with what Byron Buxton actually hit? I get all the injury suggestions but I have been watching all the games and I am looking at the stats that back up what I have been seeing with my eyes. . Both Buxton and Sano were brutal enough in 2018 that neither of them should be handed a starting job in 2019. Both need to battle back and earn the responsibility and both of them should be informed of that right now... so they can get serious in the off-season about what is in front of them. If Buxton is gone in 4 years... he's gone. Right now it's all about value and he is more valuable with 4 years of control than 3 years of control.

Why would a manager reassure a player that a job will be his after reporting to spring training in September before he knows who are the players on the roster actually are?

Hoping may not get the job done. You may need a gun along with a threatening note and a plane ticket to Tampa. The Rays are 73-63 Since opening the door on the opener experiment. They have used a traditional starter maybe 40% of the time. This experiment is taking place during a season that the following players were removed from the roster. Brad Boxberger Evan Longoria Jake Odorizzi Stephen Souza Jr. Corey Dickerson Denard Span Alex Colome Brad Miller Matt Andriese Nathan Eovaldi Chris Archer Nathan Eolvaldi Adeina Hechoverria Andriese, Eovaldi and Archer were 3 of the few pitchers who were making occasional traditional starter appearances so they have been moving them down the road and increasing the need for this new approach. Currently the Rays have a Team ERA of 3.68 which is ranked 3rd in the American League. This is an extremely small sample size and more data needs to be gathered but The Rays are 73-63 with an impressive overall team ERA, in a year that they sold almost all of their talent. Small Sample Size of course. More data is needed but I think teams should be paying attention. Besides... there is still no reason to think they won't be still developing Blake Snell as a starter.

Let's say you are right (You might be) and he never gets over it. I believe it is possible that Byron gets over it but also believe it is possible that his agent remembers. Those guys are good at grabbing leverage whenever they can. It still doesn't matter because it is all about value. If he doesn't repair his value... None of this matters. He becomes a bust and spends his career in Ben Revere land. If he repairs his value and becomes the player that you (and I) believe he can be. Then there are a couple of scenarios. A. We enjoy 3 or 4 years of high quality baseball that helps win three world series titles in a row. Then he signs with the Braves or Yankees for more money than we can afford anyway. We of course offer him a QO and he turns it down and we get an extra draft choice but we got those three world series titles to soften the blow. B. We realize that relationship isn't getting fixed but since he has established himself as one of the top players in the major leagues... we trade him and get an amazing return. It's a business... it's all about value now. If he's pissed, he is here for 4 years or until the Twins say differently. It would be in his best interest to get it together.

I don't understand other humans at all. Collectively... humans are the reason that Ghost Adventures are on the Travel Channel.