Riverbrian

Agreed, we do need defensive data to help answer the questions I have posed. Like I mentioned in the original post. I think it is quite possible that position flexibility overkill may have cost Metheny his Job in St. Louis or maybe it was a case of the front office bringing in too many sub-par defenders in total. I've been looking at this very hard for the past month and I'm bringing it to everyone's attention to take a look at. I'm at the point that I believe that if everyone was looking at what I'm running across, they would be converted. I'm not a UZR defensive metric guy so I'm not going to spend a lot of time looking at the metrics. That is for others more capable than I to hopefully contribute to the discussion. Lacking the defensive data, the one thing that we can look at are the standings. It doesn't appear to be hurting in the standings.

Wishful thinking is pretty kind of you. I'm declaring that it has been a long continued string of horrible missed assessments with blinders on.

That's the point I've been making about the Twins. We have been so bad at our assessments and execution that it looks like a horrible idea when looking through the Twins lens. Widen the view out to the Dodgers, Cubs and Brewers and it isn't such a running joke. I've always had plenty of benefit of the doubt for our organization but the more I look into this... the more blind and stuck in our ways the Twins seem to have been. How does an organization year after year, fail at a high percentage with #1 draft picks, fail to develop superstars from the system, fail to have trade chips that are serious "I'll give you the best prospect I have" types, fail to find diamonds in the rough despite having an unusual amount of terrible seasons from regulars, lock players into position and still be average defensively and award every day playing time to players who are average at best overall? The Twins have failed to pay attention to new ideas and spent Pre-Falvey, Lavine still operating like this was 1980.

It allows you to get your best bats in the lineup. In 2016... We tried to force Sano into RF, We moved Danny Santana into CF just to cover for struggling and injured Buxton. We signed Robbie Grossman just to fill OF space. Meanwhile we had Dozier, Escobar, Nunez and Polanco as infield options so we ended up with more IF options than we had space for and less OF options than we needed. During a year where we ended up with the #1 draft pick due to our ineptitude. That is what is gained... We can get our best bats in the lineup. The other thing gained is value... Dozier with LF experience becomes more valuable on the trade market and probably would end up with a bigger free agent contract next year with more teams opened up for his possible services.

I have no reason to doubt that 2B is Brian's best position however we are noticing the shifting that has taken over the game. With the shifting it is no longer the 2B position that we grew up watching.

There is still an old school versus new school. Dave Roberts is playing Cody Bellinger at both 1B and CF. Cody Bellinger had 473 Innings of OF work in the minors prior to his arrival in LA. His first two years in the minors were exclusively at 1B and he spent a total of 2362 innings total at 1B in the minors. When Bellinger was called up to the Dodgers he was one of the top prospects in all the land. Regardless Bellinger was called up April 2017 when OF Joc Pederson was placed on the DL. He made his MLB debut not where he was most comfortable at 1B with 2362 innings but in LF where he had spent a total of 110 innings because that is where the Dodgers needed him. As Adrian Gonzalez continued to struggle with a .642 OPS (Which is a lot like what we saw this year from our players). Bellinger started playing more and more 1B. Bellinger was added as an OF and eventually finished 2017 with 93 games at 1B as the Dodgers phased out A-Gon. Also playing 48 games in the OF (Primarily LF). Fast Forward to 2018... A Gon is gone. Bellinger has the 1B position to himself and he has started there 77 times but has also played CF 35 times and OF 40 times. Which has allowed Max Muncy and his newly found bat to play 1B 41 times. Max Muncy has also played 3B 36 times, OF 6 times and 2B 11 times. Max Muncy of course was released by the Oakland A's and acquired by the Dodgers for free and had a total of 96 innings at 2B in the minors prior to coming to the Dodgers. He has now played more 2B with the Dodgers then he did in 7 years of minor league play. Muncy had been playing some 2B despite the presence of Logan Forsythe, Chase Utley, Kike Hernandez, Chris Taylor and Catcher Austin Barnes on the Dodgers roster. All 5 of those players have more experience playing the 2B position than Max Muncy. Utley 15040 Innings at 2B Forsythe 5824 Innings at 2B Hernandez 3776 Innings at 2B Barnes 1662 Innings at 2B Taylor 892 Innings at 2B All of this is happening during a time when the Dodgers Starting Pitching has had as many as 4 starters on the DL at the same time. They have lost Corey Seager with a season ending injury and Justin Turner missed the first 40 games of the season due to injury. The Dodgers are currently in 1st place despite such shenanigans. There is definitely a new school and an old school. Did the Dodgers seek out these type of players or did they just do it against old school conventions. Has it hurt them defensively? Has it hurt them in the standings? Would the Twins ever try something like the Dodgers are doing? Or like the Cubs are doing? Or like the Brewers are doing? All competing for playoff spots as we speak. The Brewers just moved Travis Shaw to 2B after the acquisition of Mike Moustakas. Travis Shaw has 0 innings of 2B experience in the minors and majors so it is anybody's guess the last time he turned a double play.

He came up as a SS was my main point which was my way of saying that the Twins have failed in making the proper assessment if his arm is indeed a defensive issue. Much like they failed to properly assess Trevor Plouffe before him and Jorge Polanco after him. And the larger point still... The Twins were so bad at this assessment, they were basically slamming Brian Dozier and Trevor Plouffe into new positions at the MLB level instead of the minor league level and then locking them down long term removing any chance of them becoming position flexible when they just proved the ability to be position flexible by learning a brand new position in seconds at the MLB level. If Dozier is a 2B only guy... sobeit but I doubt it... I bet he would have made a nice LF'er if given the opportunity. If Dozier would have played some LF during his time here. He would have been much easier to trade today.

So what do you do with Cuddyer who isn't good at any position if you'd like to have his bat in the lineup? In 2005 Cuddyer was our starting 3B. In 2006 he was starting in RF where he remained until 2009. That 2009 team had Denard Span, Delmon Young, Jason Kubel and Carlos Gomez in addition to play OF. Meanwhile the 2009 team rolled with Joe Crede and Brendan Harris at 3B which was Cuddyer's original position. The following season Cuddyer was required to play 1B due to Morneau injury and the following season Cuddyer was required to play 2B due to the Nishioka, Casilla mess. Cuddyer was exactly the guy you can move around and get his bat in the lineup and the Twins did not unless injury necessity mothered the invention. Saying you can easily do more damage by moving a guy around and losing runs defensively then you gain is either suggesting a recklessness in deployment or you are ignoring that the Cubs, Dodgers, Astros and Brewers are already executing successfully.

They are terrible examples of position flexibility and were used to show how terrible the Twins are at identifying talent, developing it and creating flexibility. However... you have raised even more concerns. If they are keeping players at SS and CF as long as possible to increase value, that would explain why we have produced so many top quality SS's and CF's. OK... so here is where we now stand. 1. In 2016 Wilfredo Tovar was our SS at Rochester and Jorge Polanco was our 2B. Tovar was signed to a minor league deal after being cleared out of the Mets organization and Jorge Polanco was rated our 4th best prospect. 2. At the Major league level in 2016. Brian Dozier was locked down at 2B playing 151 games while the Twins were rolling with the Eduardo's at SS. Escobar was the opening day starter. SS would have to be identified by anybody as the quickest path to the majors for our 4th rated prospect whose bat was nearly MLB ready during one of our worst seasons ever. 3. Despite your statement that they try to keep prospects at SS for as long as possible, despite his bat being nearly MLB ready, despite the bigger need at SS at the MLB level. The Twins move him to 2B right before he is called up as our everyday SS and he has remained at SS since. 4. December 9, 2010 the Twins trade JJ Hardy and Brendan Harris(both of whom played more innings at SS in MLB than any other position) to the Orioles for pitching. 5. December 17, 2010 the Twins sign Tsuyoshi Nishioka to a 3 year contract 6. During spring training 2011, Gardenhire announces that Alexi Casilla will be the opening day SS moving him from 2B as Nishioka signed as the SS replacement for Hardy is moved to 2B. 7. In Early May, Casilla is shifted back to 2B to make room for rookie Trevor Plouffe who had logged over 5,000 innings at SS in the Minor Leagues. Trevor plays 27 games at SS before Ron Gardenhire or someone discovers that he has a lack of range and issues at SS which wasn't discovered in 5,000 innings at SS in the minor leagues and he is replaced at SS by Tsuyoshi Nishioka who has now recovered from a leg injury suffered while demonstrating horrible technique turning a double play at 2B. 8. Trevor Plouffe is sent back down to Rochester and all of sudden is no longer a SS moving into a utility type role. He spends 9 games at 2B, 7 games in the OF, 7 games at 1B and 1 game at 3B. When he returns to the big club... he is still no longer a SS but finishes off his rookie season with starting 15 games at 2B and 11 games in the OF playing no games at 3B. 9. In 2012, Trevor Plouffe makes the team in a Utility role. Danny Valencia breaks camp the starting 3B and light hitting 38 year old Jamey Carroll is our starting SS. In early May, Valencia hitting .190 is demoted to Rochester, Trevor Plouffe moves to 3B (he played a total of 1 game at 3B in 2011 prior to the shift) and he shares time with Jamey Carroll while Brian Dozier is called up to play SS. Brian Dozier has logged 2486 innings at SS in the minors prior to his call up. 10. Brian Dozier starts 81 games at SS commits 15 errors and is sent down to AAA replaced by Pedro Florimon. 11. In 2013... Despite only 393 innings at 2B... Brian Dozier is magically named our opening day starting 2B and Trevor Plouffe is named our starting 3B. 12. Trevor Plouffe who was being groomed as a utility player then plays everyday at the position despite average to below average production. He becomes so entrenched at the position that Miguel Sano is forced to move to RF to accomodate the average play of Trevor Plouffe. 13. Brian Dozier is still the everyday 2B he has developed into one of the best 2B in the majors despite minimal experience at the position prior to claiming the full time job. While, the Twins groom Jorge Polanco to be our current SS by playing him at 2B in Rochester which places him directly behind Brian Dozier the one player who appears to be working out. My question is this: Just how bad are we at this?

How about Johan? http://www.espn.com/mlb/news/story?id=2745346

I am saying that (during the season) I believe it is quite possible that teams will not negotiate with one player because another player's feeling will get hurt. Yes I am saying that. I believe that there is nuance and nothing is cut and dried but I believe it would be smart to have a general rule to not negotiate during the season and the primary reason for that rule is because somebody either the player involved or the guy in the locker room next to the player involved may end up acting like a jealous brat and I believe that it has probably happened numerous times in the sport we love before front offices just pulled the plug on it.

Dozier January 20th https://www.mlb.com/news/brian-dozier-would-sign-extension-with-twins/c-265076680 Dozier March 5th http://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/22653546/brian-dozier-says-a-free-agent-fall-no-contract-talks-minnesota-twinsDozier March 5th I know Dozier loves Escobar and they are great friends but imagine his reaction to Escobar getting an extension after a hot 1st half of 2018 in consideration of Brian Dozier's past 3 years. I've seen normal people completely shut down over a $20 reimbursement.

During the season... that is what I meant. http://www.eagletribune.com/sports/local_sports/mason-dave-dombrowski-says-don-t-hold-your-breath-on/article_6308339e-69ac-5f1f-84f6-62e2095f2397.html

I think the reason they don't negotiate during the season is because the agents will bump the price during every hot streak but honestly I have no idea because I've never negotiated a major league contract. However, teams typically do not negotiate during the season and they usually say something about it being a distraction. Believing that someone else could be upset over another getting an extension is a lot easier to believe than players being distracted by... (insert whatever theory here)?

Players are people and players getting upset under these circumstances would be what I consider to be "unreasonable". Unfortunately... People are unreasonable often.

What if Dozier's agent was a little aggressive in the numbers on the extension? What if they would still like to sign Dozier to an FA Deal? Wouldn't signing Escobar to an extension be insulting to Dozier? There are reasons why clubs don't do a lot of negotiating on extensions during the season.

We didn't hit our sales goal once and corporate declared that we would have to let someone go as a consequence. (Non Sales Position Of Course). Everybody was pretty pissed about it but we hit our goal the following years.

I agree, we have already reached the point where a Chris Carter type is so common that Chris Carter can't find work and this will come back around to realizing that the D.J. Lemehieu type might be worth something.

Mauer and Morrison have both been on the D.L. which causes adjustment. When both Mauer and Morrison were healthy and Morrison was hitting horribly. It was pretty much the Mauer and Morrison show.

I'm sure there were exceptions to the rule before but in my opinion the shift started with Maddon. I could be wrong.

This is a great point. Back in the 80's there was a ton more bunting and the slap hitter was much more prevalent. Today it's a launch angle K or Dinger mentality.

Awesome info.

Who knows because Morrison did fall into our laps... It might have been Vargas instead but regardless... Molitor kept playing Morrison.

I agree with the overall point. But in my opinion, Molitor only started using Garver or others in the DH spot. While we were struggling it was Morrison and Mauer almost exclusively.

Absolutely... it's also the reason I want Escobar back. Don't get me wrong... I love Dozier and would love to have him back but right now I don't trust Molitor. If Dozier comes back he will play every day regardless if he hits .200 for two months. It's sad that I'm at the point that I'd rather the temptation be removed.