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I've seen plenty of outlandish trade proposals by fans, but I think many of the astute posters at TD sometimes undervalue the Twins--almost an overreaction to the "Duensing for Kersharw" type trades.. If the Pirates are looking for a CF, SS, and RP, all three of those guys could contribute, probably right out of the gate. That isn't a bad trade for them at all.

First, I think Cole has a fairly reasonable floor - he was an innings eater last year but still manage ~3 WAR, and prior to that he has averaged at least 4 WAR/200 innings. So that is good, especially considering where the Twins rotation is. Second, I think there is still a lot of upside. He just completed his age-26 season, so he is younger than anyone on the free agent market. He throws HARD, averaging over 95+ on his fastball. He has all the ingredients to make a leap in the next two seasons. It obviously isn't a given that he will, but he certainly can. And it isn't unheard of for pitchers to take their game to another level in their late-20s: Scherzer, Arrieta, and Kluber all went from slightly-better-than-league-average to Cy Young contender at age 28. That is the bet I'm making when I'm advocating for Cole. So that is what I think we are getting. A reasonable floor over the next two seasons with legitimate top-of-the-rotation upside. I think that is a good bet for the Twins to take right now.

If that would be the actual cost for Cole, I'm doing that trade. While a lot of people love Archer and his stuff, I'd honestly rather have Cole for what the price will be, and I've always thought of Archer as an enigma. To me he has the weirdest, non-competitive demeanor on the mound I've ever seen. Now, it's not like that has prevented him from striking a bunch of guys out and dominating at times, but something is just "off" there for me. Also, Archer's career WAR vs. Cole's WAR is only 11.9 to 11.4 (bref), and Cole has pitched one less season. Archer put up 4.3 in 2015 and Cole 4.5 that same season. They both gave up a bunch of HR's last year, but before that Cole was very good at keeping the ball in the yard while Archer's been giving them up at that rate 2+ seasons. What I'm saying is, I don't think Archer is far and away better than Cole to justify the price difference in a trade that it seems it's going to require. My first choice is sign Yu Darvish, but trading for Cole would be my second option and I don't see why they couldn't do both if they really wanted. Trading for Archer is a distant option for me and I realize I may be the minority on that.

I would, too! If there is any truth to that, I'm thinking ... why isn't it done already??? (And that it not being done already, I wonder at its truth. )

I'd love to have the chance to blow the WS.

How about we do that trade for Cole AND we sign Darvish and stup ****ing half-assing it? Why not both? The only good answer is that the Twins have never done something that aggressive before, and frankly, that's a terrible answer.

While you hope you don't have to rely on them in CF, they are plenty capable to fill in. There are literally numerous corner OF options. On the 40-man: Grossman, Garver, Adrianza. In the minors: LaMonte Wade, Edgar Corcino. Then they are a dime a dozen on FA market. Granite should not hold anything up.

Um, Rosario and Kepler say hello. They can handle it. Plenty of guys who can fill in a corner.

My least favorite option. Just not a believer

Archer has been through the ringer of the AL East and has still come away as one of the division's top starters. He also misses a boatload of bats. Cole's consistency, injury history and lifetime in the NL makes me nervous. Plus the four years instead of two is huge. The fact that Archer is on such a small contract could also mean he'd be amenable to ripping up that contract and increasing his current base pay in exchange for adding on a couple of years, should the team want to extend him that is.

Wow, rumor of a solid proposal. I would do that trade.

I would make that trade for Cole in a heartbeat.

that's all I wanted to say. I consider it good for baseball if they don't win the World Series next year. Feel free to vent below. Also, is Jeter trying to improve the team he owns or his old team? I mean, why would you do that trade prior to the Winter meetings where he may have gotten a better offer? I realize Stanton could nix other potential trade and that this was about dumping salary, but shouldn't you try to get something better for a superstar? Just my 2 pennies.

I have a hard time imagining why TB would want to trade Archer - he checks all the boxes for the kind of pitcher everybody wants. IMO, it would take elite talent to even get them to think about it: yeah, Buxton or Sano type players.

Interesting Read: http://www.twincities.com/2017/12/12/relationship-with-twins-gm-thad-levine-could-be-game-changer-for-yu-darvish/ Says in here that Darvish reached out to Gimenez over Thanksgiving to discuss Twins and the city.

Hate to lose Gordon, but Wade and Granite are the same to me. Jay might be great, or never heathy. I probably do that deal, but only if the plan is to also add a free agent or three. Two years is very short term, so if you do this, you should commit money too.

No team has a CF whose even close on defense. Rosario can fill in if push comes to shove. We can't stop a move for the starting pitcher we so desperately need, by being concerned about a lightweight like Granite.

You all suck and most of you should be incarcerated do a good job of keeping things running smoothly.

Stanton

Shame on the MLB for allowing this ownership group to take over Miami. Nothing has changed from past ownership. There's really no excuse for Miami to act like a small market team.

Seth, Darvish wouldn't cost a draft pick. You have that wrong. He was traded to the Dodgers, so no draft pick compensation is attached.

My favorite thing is reading comment after comment, each of them convincing, and having my mind changed, or at least opened a little, to new points of view, in such a collegial and friendly manner. I love that differing opinions are not an occasion to bluster and get huffy, but are mutually considered the very thing we come here to seek out. That open-minded curiosity creates a sense of community, intellectual stimulation, and shared fun. It feels like a warm hearth to gather around and chat, in what can be a cold, cruel world. So, thanks to literally everyone! But especially to the moderators, who make it all happen so seamlessly you don't even know they're there. Well done indeed.

No chance I trade two pitchers for 1 year of Machado. Zero. Nada. Nil. Zilch. I can't even imagine why the Twins would do that.

its funny cause the person who asked the question was asking Erica if you were the Twins would you take it? and Eric answered in the POV of the Pirates.

I don't think it's rude ... I think there is a certain to truth to it ... on BOTH sides. (The 'being right' part.) I've followed this debate each and every time it's come up and there is absolutely nothing new being said ... it's the same old arguments on both sides, back and forth, back and forth. There are a few acknowledgements of understanding the others' points of view, even if disagreed with (and I say few, very few) vs people just digging in for the long haul, with the 'tone' of "I'm right, gosh darn it!" So, at this point, as a moderator, I'm putting this out here: If you've said it already, you've said it. Move on. There is no 'convincing' of anyone of anything here as most here have decided opinions. On TD, I don't care how much you believe in what you believe, or how right you may be proven in hindsight, or how right you think you are in foresight, no one is right or wrong here, only expressing opinions. Disagree with those opinions all you want, have a good debate, even heated as long as you remain respectful. But at this point, this subject has been debated many times over, and it will soon teeter over (and has) into jabs at one another and their reasoning as to why they think as they do which then becomes bickering. So, unless you have something new to add or are just refuting what you've already refuted time and again, stop. And while I'm at it ... stop with the jabs, especially if you meant them to be unfriendly. And stop being easily offended with perception without truly knowing and responding equally. (Especially the 'responding equally' part.) If you truly feel whatever someone said was meant as an insult, report it. (And even though I quoted Mike here, I am addressing EVERYONE. He just gave me a 'good jumping off' point.)

The rumor comes from a Pirates fan site, not Seth. Which gives it more credibility than if it came from "us" And actually, the reaction from what seemed like Pirates fans on Twitter, was positive.

I do Cole for Gordon, Jay & Granite in a heartbeat. Offer Cole a deal in the 4-year / $40-48mil range and buy out his remaining remaining two arb years & first two years of FA. The guy could be a horse.

Cheers...Twins Daily is the best!

I don't include Royce Lewis in any trade, unless it's a reasonably priced top 5 MLB pitcher with plenty of team control remaining AKA - I'm not trading Royce Lewis

I thought a trade for Cole would have to include Gordon and Romero/Gonsalves but I think Jay and Granite is a roughly equal to that. I like Gordon a lot (I think he's our #1 prospect) and Jay could be an absolute killer in the pen but his injury history is such that I think its ok to move on. But he could really come back to bite us. But Cole could be a nice piece in our rotation. I think the deal is fair - might be a bit too kind to Pitt and maybe they need to throw in a small piece back - but it's certainly a decent starting place for a negotiation.

Do not know his status or his agent, but Lewis should be here in 2019 or 2020 and Twins have many middle infield prospects. Would hate to lose Gordon and or Jay, but cannot see the message the Twins are satisfied with a wild card spot, will make it tough to land top flight talent in the future. Remember the White Sox see their window opening about 2020 and they are one of the top ranked farm systems (like the Twins were a couple of years ago). Let's not blow this.

If the rumored trade proposal is accurate then I would think the reason MN is hesitating is because internally they are very high on Jay. You have to give some to get some so it's pretty obvious Gordon would be included. While I like Granite and think he's a valuable 4th OF for us this year, you don't hesitate to add to the front end of your pitching staff because of a 4th OF. So it has to be about Jay and the ceiling/floor our front office views for him.

Everything in moderation...that's what I say...except for good beer. Thanks moderators!

Yuk! Terrible trade! I like Archer but not giving up Sano! Terrible!

I'd rather pull the trigger for Archer & it isn't that close. If I'm giving up prospects for pitching, I want that pitcher around for 4+ years, not 2 years. That's likely going to cost more in prospects so let's go big. Let's package Sano, Gordon, Jay & another prospect for Archer & Longoria. With a cheap contract for Archer, let's use the savings to sign Brian Shaw. Let's not dip our toe in the water. Instead, let's make a splash.

The Morris HOF debate has been going on for years, and not because of team affiliation. It’s about people who believe that bWAR and ERA+ are the most important rating systems, and anyone who disagrees is “old school” and less enlightened. It’s more about a group of people wanting to be right than it is about Twins fans, or Braves fans, or Tigers fans.

That would be a no brainier trade. At that cost, there is still plenty left to make other moves.

You have to have 11, before you can have 12. That's just math.

Six years ago we were promoting guys that were failing in the minors (Ok, failing might be strong but certainly not guys we were itching to see based on their performances). Guys like Seger may or may not thrive in the majors but at least we have several pitchers in the minors that have earned a shot rather than just get promoted because there is no one else.

Excellent article. Oh, and is the answer that they both have eleven letters in their names?

My question for many of the folks who say Gonsalves only has 4-5 range "stuff and potential"... have any of you seen him pitch or looked at his track record through the minors? There is a reason that he's one of the top rated LH starting prospects by MLB. I'm not saying he (or Romero) are untouchable, but... seriously?? He has potential, the kind you don't lightly give away. I get the whole shiny, new toy syndrome or the allure of selling your cow for some "magic" beans, I do (I also really despise the Yankees and the SEC/Alabama... but that's another story and rant), but at a certain times you have to stand back and trust some of the cards you have in your hand.

What type of player do you think fill-in corner outfielders or 4th outfielders are? The way I look at it, the Twins "nothing but rain drops" outfield is all center fielder quality. Varying degrees obviously, but that's what they are. It's nice to have a 4th OF-er who is also CF above average, but they already have that and corners are way easier to fill. Granite is a 4th outfielder for the Twins. Look at who the Twins have had in that role recently: Sam Fuld, Logan Schafer, Jordan Schafer, Danny Santana, Shane Robinson, Darin Mastroianni, Clete Thomas... Bench outfielders and corner guys are definitely a dime-a-dozen. You're worrying too much about this and if he's a guy Pittsburgh is targeting, I say good for them and him.

To me the only thing worth quibbling about in a hypothetical Gordon-Jay-Granite for Cole trade would be how to factor in the issue of only getting 2 years of control. If you were confident that you could solve for that problem, I don't see why the names would bother a Twins fan. Gordon did not seem 'almost ready' for the entire 2nd half of last year. While he's been younger than his competition all along the way, based on what he's shown offensively so far, it seems a great deal of his value will be dependent upon playing a position that nobody seems convinced he can play on an every-day basis at the major league level. Granite...as a left-handed hitter (without power), has exactly zero offensive value for the twins. He's injury insurance. If you think you can significantly improve your rotation, you're going to be ok worrying about injury insurance on another day. Tyler Jay at this point is a 24 year old high-risk, high-upside, lottery ticket. Based on organizational depth, risk, fit with current roster...these guys would be at the very top of the list of prospects (that actually have value) I would be willing to move if I were Twins management.

I would make that trade in a heartbeat. I have Gordon as the no. 5 prospect in the system behind Gonsalves, Lewis, Romero, and Rooker. I think Gordon needs another year at AA to get those strikeouts down. Jay was good in Fort Myers in 2016, but there is nothing else to rely on in terms of a long-term projection as a starter. Granite is very expendable with the likes of Rooker and Wade behind him. It seems pretty obvious to me. I understand potentially being hesitant about parting with Gordon, but Polanco and Escobar are there at the moment. Obviously this all would change if the Twins decided to trade Dozier.

My first choice is both! (Yeah, I know ... humming 'The Impossible Dream' to myself now.)

Also, how incredibly fascinating would Tim Wakefield's spin rate pitchFX data be? I assume I could look at it for hours. "Oh, Shiiiiiiiiiit!!!!!! He got one in single digits!!!!!!"

I'm always a guy who loves the prospects and wants to hoard them (but not now, I want to cash in for the big prizes) and I've been thrilled with Gonsalves' development, but for a guy who is supposed to be polished and have good control, he throws so many pitches. In the minors he can get guys to chase off the plate, in the majors he can't count on that. Berrios did that too, it took a demotion and some re-tooling then he came back up, attacked the zone and did well. However, Berrios has great stuff and can still miss bats while throwing within the zone, Gonsalves doesn't have have the same stuff, I think it's pretty unlikely he finds himself at the top of the rotation.

Aren't minor leaguers really the magic beans, and veterans the cow here? Hardly any minor league players make a serious contribution in the majors.

In advance of the Rule-5 draft, we have 14 position players on the 40-man roster. Fourteen! A team can't realistically go into a season with that number, can they? Something has got to be in the works to add to that quantity. Even with the number of pitchers exposed to possible drafting, we have 22 hurlers on the 40-man. That becomes a seemingly unsustainable 23 if a pitcher is added via free-agency. For comparison, a team like the Astros currently are at 18/20. Dodgers, 18/22. A ratio like 20/20 or 19/21 seems like the norm when the dust settles and the season starts. 14/22?!? I have to believe big changes are coming to pull these numbers for the Twins closer in balance, in a way not currently being discussed whatsoever.