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Keeping the Rolls Royce in the Garage


20 hours ago, Alex Boxwell said:

Is this Rocco Baldelli? Am I being punked? Seriously though, yes, I was that player in college. I played through various injuries to try and help my team and play the game I love, I get it more than you probably realize and that's ok. Like you said he was unable to run some days, I think most people that followed baseball were aware of that. In the instance of last year, the conversation should have been let's get it fixed so you can run and/or manage this so the at-bats can be consistent. A competitor will always want to take the field, it's the organizations job to protect them. Protecting them isn't a weird on again off again schedule where we watch a players batting average disintegrate. There's a great article on this at the top of the page.

You must be unaware that a primary injury Buxton dealt with last year was Patellar Tendinitis, which is a long term injury that is very tricky to manage, and requires "active rest" which essentially is a combination of slowly ramping up and / or maintaining activity with some rest days. His "healthy scratch" days still involved dealing with this chronic condition. This "weird" on again off again schedule was managed by top physical therapists and team doctors. But clearly, you know more than them!  Yes, I'm guessing his health and inconsistent playing time caused his batting average to suffer. He could have gotten his surgery and ended his season earlier than he did I suppose.

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2 hours ago, Riverbrian said:

In hindsight it looks like he should have been placed on the D.L and then maybe we have him for September. 

I was sleeping during med school but I agree with you because whatever they tried with Buxton last year... didn't work. They were careful and he still ended up being out for the stretch run. I heard Rocco say that Buxton was giving it everything he had but he could barely walk into the locker room some days. 

Was it the inconsistent playing time... or was it the knee injury itself?

I often hear about the importance of consistent playing time and it makes all the sense in the world when you hear it. Rhythm... Timing has to be important... it passes the common sense test. Boras was telling everybody that Gallo's struggles were playing time related. If only Gallo could get regular playing time. 

However, it only seemingly applies to certain players. Buxton it applies to because his numbers were not what we expected. Rob Refsnyder it does not apply to. Rob is that .300 hitter that you said can't happen. 

https://www.espn.com/mlb/player/gamelog/_/id/33411/rob-refsnyder

It applies to Joey Gallo but it doesn't apply to Kyle Garlick and all of the short side platoon guys. Garlick is expected to mash lefties with 28% playing time. 

It applies to the chosen starting 9 on all 30 teams but it doesn't apply to the 4 bench guys. If you rest them, they will lose that comfort/rhythm/timing and those 4 bench guys will be expected to perform on a Sunday afternoon after sitting Monday through Saturday. 

Of course... we would never see a player perform worse in August and September or in the playoffs with regular playing time as a cure all but yet we do.

We would never see a player go on a hot streak after returning from injury and yet we do. 

It makes all the sense in the world when it is expressed. Real life? I'm not so sure. But, if it is important... with the injuries that occur, we better make sure that all 26 players are getting that comfort rhythm and timing. 

 

 

That's a fair point, we can call it the Matt Stairs effect. Some guys don't struggle as much but the sample size is much smaller and could maybe be attributed to lightening in a bottle or that fact they are always put in "favorable matchups".

 

One thing I've always wanted to dive deeper into is the April numbers of some of the best players of all-time. Could be very telling on how some of the games best fair on getting in a rhythm and being comfortable in the box. I think some have a more natural rhythm than others and don't struggle with it as much. For most, it's something guys find in the regular season.

 

Injury is obviously a huge disrupter because you lose those cage swings that might have helped save some of that. It's something I find endlessly fascinating and love hearing people's takes on it. In the end... probably too many variables but that's what makes the topic fun I think.

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1 hour ago, Riverbrian said:

In hindsight it looks like he should have been placed on the D.L and then maybe we have him for September. 

I was sleeping during med school but I agree with you because whatever they tried with Buxton last year... didn't work. They were careful and he still ended up being out for the stretch run. I heard Rocco say that Buxton was giving it everything he had but he could barely walk into the locker room some days. 

Was it the inconsistent playing time... or was it the knee injury itself?

I often hear about the importance of consistent playing time and it makes all the sense in the world when you hear it. Rhythm... Timing has to be important... it passes the common sense test. Boras was telling everybody that Gallo's struggles were playing time related. If only Gallo could get regular playing time. 

However, it only seemingly applies to certain players. Buxton it applies to because his numbers were not what we expected. Rob Refsnyder it does not apply to. Rob is that .300 hitter that you said can't happen. 

https://www.espn.com/mlb/player/gamelog/_/id/33411/rob-refsnyder

It applies to Joey Gallo but it doesn't apply to Kyle Garlick and all of the short side platoon guys. Garlick is expected to mash lefties with 28% playing time. 

It applies to the chosen starting 9 on all 30 teams but it doesn't apply to the 4 bench guys. If you rest them, they will lose that comfort/rhythm/timing and those 4 bench guys will be expected to perform on a Sunday afternoon after sitting Monday through Saturday. 

Of course... we would never see a player perform worse in August and September or in the playoffs with regular playing time as a cure all but yet we do.

We would never see a player go on a hot streak after returning from injury and yet we do. 

It makes all the sense in the world when it is expressed. Real life? I'm not so sure. But, if it is important... with the injuries that occur, we better make sure that all 26 players are getting that comfort rhythm and timing. 

 

 

You make a very good point about comfort, rhythm & timing, RiverBrian. There's a balance of not getting enough playing time with playing hurt & overstretched, Forgotten players like  Refsnyder, which given enough ABs blossom. While players playing hurt or overstretched seldom play well. It's very hard to come in cold to pitch hit at a critical time, I admire those who can.

Garlick is a very restricted profile player, he mashes LHPs. I would not give him added time to bat against MLB RHPs. I'd send him down to AAA until we need him again to give him ABs.

I also see the necessity of having comfort, rhythm & timing in pitching. To find a balance & establish a schedule for both SPs & BP so everyone knows when he pitches, what role & how to prepare, no pitcher is overstretched or not given enough innings. Of course with flexibility.

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13 minutes ago, walkstar89 said:

You must be unaware that a primary injury Buxton dealt with last year was Patellar Tendinitis, which is a long term injury that is very tricky to manage, and requires "active rest" which essentially is a combination of slowly ramping up and / or maintaining activity with some rest days. His "healthy scratch" days still involved dealing with this chronic condition. This "weird" on again off again schedule was managed by top physical therapists and team doctors. But clearly, you know more than them!  Yes, I'm guessing his health and inconsistent playing time caused his batting average to suffer. He could have gotten his surgery and ended his season earlier than he did I suppose.

I'm very aware of Byron Buxton's injury history.  He's my favorite baseball player to watch on the planet. Is it selfish I want him in center field and green lighted on the base paths for 140-150, yes, no doubt. The only point of me shoehorning in my own injury history (that know one knows or cares about) is that I rehabbed a ton injuries very similar to Byron and I get it to a degree that a lot of people might not. However he is not broken, he can play centerfield full time again, I do believe that- baseball is not that dangerous and the human body is built to last. The addition of Michael A. Taylor all but confirms he won't be a regular in center field though and that's fine. The moral of the story is that no matter how much I day dream of him playing 150 in CF. His best production will be with consistent ABs and if DHing regularly is the answer then that's fine. We all want Byron Buxton to play as much as possible but in the business of pro ball the result is very important.

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21 minutes ago, Alex Boxwell said:

I'm very aware of Byron Buxton's injury history.  He's my favorite baseball player to watch on the planet. Is it selfish I want him in center field and green lighted on the base paths for 140-150, yes, no doubt. The only point of me shoehorning in my own injury history (that know one knows or cares about) is that I rehabbed a ton injuries very similar to Byron and I get it to a degree that a lot of people might not. However he is not broken, he can play centerfield full time again, I do believe that- baseball is not that dangerous and the human body is built to last. The addition of Michael A. Taylor all but confirms he won't be a regular in center field though and that's fine. The moral of the story is that no matter how much I day dream of him playing 150 in CF. His best production will be with consistent ABs and if DHing regularly is the answer then that's fine. We all want Byron Buxton to play as much as possible but in the business of pro ball the result is very important.

 "I get it to a degree that a lot of people might not" ? More than team doctors and expert physical trainers? I get you know more than the average joe due to your playing history, but surely all the experts involved in this process who also have access to the player himself and his medicals know more than you.   

"However he is not broken he can play centerfield full time again" What are you basing this on? Who knows what his current medicals say. An offseason will help a lot but not everything. 

"the human body is built to last" Not all bodies are built the same. Some players play 150 + games season after season, other players have chronic injuries. 

At the end of it all I very much agree: I hope his body holds up and he can get consistent playing time! 

Edited by walkstar89
Rude tone
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4 hours ago, Nine of twelve said:

Like you

Quote

, I tire of reading and hearing comments insinuating that Rocco and Falvine rely too much on analytics and don't truly know baseball.

(And some of those comments originate in my own home.) Regarding Buxton in particular, Twins insiders know way more than we fans do about his health. I have every confidence that their strategy has always been to have him in games, especially in CF, as much as possible. And I don't agree with those who say he should be given days off only in road games. Of course I want to see him on the field when I am at Target Field--who doesn't?--but what I want more is to have him (and for that matter all players) contributing optimally. If what works best is to give him a day off for a home game then I support that.

Yeah it gets old. I think that they do rely on analytics, but that isn't necessarily a bad thing. You just need the personal to apply that strategy (like having a deep bullpen if you're pulling starters before the 3rd trip). Everything is about context. Even if folks think they rely too much on analytics, I agree that doesn't mean they don't know baseball. I very much think they know what they are doing. The moves they are making going into this season are very interesting. I personally am very excited to see what happens in 2023. Just waiting for the "big one", like a package of Larnach, Kepler, and a top prospect for a true Ace...

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3 minutes ago, walkstar89 said:
Quote

Seriously? "I get it to a degree that a lot of people might not" ? You mean you get it more than team doctors and expert physical trainers? You must be joking. Because you played baseball and dealt with injuries that makes you an expert on what to do in Buxton's situation? Because all bodies are similar? 

"However he is not broken he can play centerfield full time again" Really? You have access to his medicals? You're basing this knowledge on what exactly? A gut feeling?

"the human body is built to last" Tell that to numerous top athletes in baseball and other sports whose bodies broke down early. Not all bodies are built the same. Some players play 150 + games season after season, other players have chronic injuries. 

At the end of it all I very much agree: I hope his body holds up and he can get consistent playing time! 

Quote

 

Easy there friend... I don't think the claim was "I know everything because I have had similar injuries," I think it was more a suggestion that since he has dealt with similar issues that he has a bit of insight into how he might be feeling and allows him to speculate a bit more than the average Joe.

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43 minutes ago, Alex Boxwell said:

That's a fair point, we can call it the Matt Stairs effect. Some guys don't struggle as much but the sample size is much smaller and could maybe be attributed to lightening in a bottle or that fact they are always put in "favorable matchups".

 

One thing I've always wanted to dive deeper into is the April numbers of some of the best players of all-time. Could be very telling on how some of the games best fair on getting in a rhythm and being comfortable in the box. I think some have a more natural rhythm than others and don't struggle with it as much. For most, it's something guys find in the regular season.

 

Injury is obviously a huge disrupter because you lose those cage swings that might have helped save some of that. It's something I find endlessly fascinating and love hearing people's takes on it. In the end... probably too many variables but that's what makes the topic fun I think.

Agreed and I really appreciate the topic. 

The "Matt Stairs effect". I love it. 

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3 minutes ago, Nick Hanzlik said:

Easy there friend... I don't think the claim was "I know everything because I have had similar injuries," I think it was more a suggestion that since he has dealt with similar issues that he has a bit of insight into how he might be feeling and allows him to speculate a bit more than the average Joe.

Yeah I reread my post and realized it has a rude tone. My fault. I'll edit it

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2 hours ago, TopGunn#22 said:

AMEN Alex!!!!!!!!  I've been saying this for years and couldn't agree with you more.  This feeble attempt to somehow "protect" him is a fools errand.  Just. Let. Him. Play.  You cannot "guarantee" an injury won't occur by trying to play Buxton in 80 games when the season is 162 plus playoffs. 

Quote

And with the new rules on pickoffs, a pitch clock and larger bases can we finally unleash him and let him steal 40-50 bases???

  I firmly believe that the only way the Twins overcome their plague of injuries is to stop walking on egg shells with worry when the next injury will occur and just play the game, all out, with fierce abandon.  When I saw your "headline" with Rolls "Royce" in it, I thought it was an article about Royce Lewis.  I feel the same way about this talented young kid as I do Buxton.  Just play him.  SS, LF, 3B, CF, 2B, RF?  I don't care.  Thinking one position is more risky than another is just adopting a mindset that something "bad" is going to happen.  Just. Let. The. Play.  And let them play all-out, with no restrictions or caution.  

Quote

 

lol the author has suggested Trea Turner as a sleeper MVP because of this (maybe not even a sleeper...). In Buck's case however, he may not hit enough singles or walk enough to even attempt 40-50 lol. Dude is an extra base monster.

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4 minutes ago, walkstar89 said:

Seriously? "I get it to a degree that a lot of people might not" ? You mean you get it more than team doctors and expert physical trainers? You must be joking. Because you played baseball and dealt with injuries that makes you an expert on what to do in Buxton's situation? Because all bodies are similar? 

"However he is not broken he can play centerfield full time again" Really? You have access to his medicals? You're basing this knowledge on what exactly? A gut feeling?

"the human body is built to last" Tell that to numerous top athletes in baseball and other sports whose bodies broke down early. Not all bodies are built the same. Some players play 150 + games season after season, other players have chronic injuries. 

At the end of it all I very much agree: I hope his body holds up and he can get consistent playing time! 

Thank you for that rollercoaster ride. But come on man, you have no idea who I am- "more than most" = not doctors, this isn't the Joe Rogan experience. More than you though? Probably. We're driving different cars to get to the same place, I want what's best for Buxton and his career too... This article was not about stirring the pot, I hope your day gets better man.

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1 minute ago, Alex Boxwell said:

Thank you for that rollercoaster ride. But come on man, you have no idea who I am- "more than most" = not doctors, this isn't the Joe Rogan experience. More than you though? Probably. We're driving different cars to get to the same place, I want what's best for Buxton and his career too... This article was not about stirring the pot, I hope your day gets better man.

Yeah I get that you know more than me. I just don't think you know as much as the team doctors and physical therapists who also have access to the player and his medicals. 

I'm having a great day actually. But I apologize for the rude tone. It's easy for me to do that when typing, my fault. 

Agree we want the same for him! 

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3 hours ago, Doctor Gast said:

You make a very good point about comfort, rhythm & timing, RiverBrian. There's a balance of not getting enough playing time with playing hurt & overstretched, Forgotten players like  Refsnyder, which given enough ABs blossom. While players playing hurt or overstretched seldom play well. It's very hard to come in cold to pitch hit at a critical time, I admire those who can.

Garlick is a very restricted profile player, he mashes LHPs. I would not give him added time to bat against MLB RHPs. I'd send him down to AAA until we need him again to give him ABs.

I also see the necessity of having comfort, rhythm & timing in pitching. To find a balance & establish a schedule for both SPs & BP so everyone knows when he pitches, what role & how to prepare, no pitcher is overstretched or not given enough innings. Of course with flexibility.

I've spend a lot of time thinking about such things. My wife complains because I forget to take the garbage out because I'm thinking about such things instead and she is right... it has absolutely no benefit to me at all. She'd rather I take out the garbage or at least monetize the things that I think about. 😀

What have I concluded... Everybody needs it. You often hear about the need for players to "work themselves through a slump". Sounds sensible but the problem is that you have to endure the slump while you allow certain players to work through it and some players barely snap out of it leaving you with a ball of nothing and nice draft position.

Regular playing time ends up being this fluid explanation for nearly every scenario that rolls down the hill. It can be applied as an explanation or not applied at the convenience of whoever can use it to plead each particular case. 

I've basically simplified it to one thing.

Give all players the chance to earn playing time and keep providing playing time to those who earn it. 

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3 hours ago, Riverbrian said:

In hindsight it looks like he should have been placed on the D.L and then maybe we have him for September. 

I was sleeping during med school but I agree with you because whatever they tried with Buxton last year... didn't work. They were careful and he still ended up being out for the stretch run. I heard Rocco say that Buxton was giving it everything he had but he could barely walk into the locker room some days. 

Was it the inconsistent playing time... or was it the knee injury itself?

I often hear about the importance of consistent playing time and it makes all the sense in the world when you hear it. Rhythm... Timing has to be important... it passes the common sense test. Boras was telling everybody that Gallo's struggles were playing time related. If only Gallo could get regular playing time. 

However, it only seemingly applies to certain players. Buxton it applies to because his numbers were not what we expected. Rob Refsnyder it does not apply to. Rob is that .300 hitter that you said can't happen. 

https://www.espn.com/mlb/player/gamelog/_/id/33411/rob-refsnyder

It applies to Joey Gallo but it doesn't apply to Kyle Garlick and all of the short side platoon guys. Garlick is expected to mash lefties with 28% playing time. 

It applies to the chosen starting 9 on all 30 teams but it doesn't apply to the 4 bench guys. If you rest them, they will lose that comfort/rhythm/timing and those 4 bench guys will be expected to perform on a Sunday afternoon after sitting Monday through Saturday. 

Of course... we would never see a player perform worse in August and September or in the playoffs with regular playing time as a cure all but yet we do.

We would never see a player go on a hot streak after returning from injury and yet we do. 

It makes all the sense in the world when it is expressed. Real life? I'm not so sure. But, if it is important... with the injuries that occur, we better make sure that all 26 players are getting that comfort rhythm and timing. 

 

 

I'm going to throw in another angle that I think supports yours.   During Terry Ryan's second tenure as GM, I got to hear him fill in for a scheduled panel discussion, and he spoke at length about being a GM.  I wish I had had a recording device!  But one thing he said stuck with me even if I'm sketchy on the details.  I think he was fielding a question from the floor about Delmon Young.

Ryan responded by saying that there were a lot of major league players even today who could hit .400, if the games were played twice a week.

For me, that encapsulates the dilemma these athletes face.  Sure, they need to find and stay in a rhythm.  But the game is exceedingly taxing when played six days out of seven most weeks, for week after week.

They don't call it the long season for nothing.

(I wish now that I could go ask him about his reasons for why Ted Williams could still do it in 1941. Being in the majors at age 22 probably had something to do with it.)

 

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42 minutes ago, walkstar89 said:

Yeah I get that you know more than me. I just don't think you know as much as the team doctors and physical therapists who also have access to the player and his medicals. 

I'm having a great day actually. But I apologize for the rude tone. It's easy for me to do that when typing, my fault. 

Agree we want the same for him! 

No worries! It's never personal and I don't take it personal either. We're on the site because we're passionate fans and that's what makes it fun to watch and debate. Does it get us too fired up sometimes? Of course... As general philosophy, we should all be able to disagree, debate and shake hands afterwards. We're all Twins fans at the end of the day! Appreciate all the responses, Go Twins!

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2 minutes ago, ashbury said:

I'm going to throw in another angle that I think supports yours.   During Terry Ryan's second tenure as GM, I got to hear him fill in for a scheduled panel discussion, and he spoke at length about being a GM.  I wish I had had a recording device!  But one thing he said stuck with me even if I'm sketchy on the details.  I think he was fielding a question from the floor about Delmon Young.

Ryan responded by saying that there were a lot of major league players even today who could hit .400, if the games were played twice a week.

For me, that encapsulates the dilemma these athletes face.  Sure, they need to find and stay in a rhythm.  But the game is exceedingly taxing when played six days out of seven most weeks, for week after week.

They don't call it the long season for nothing.

 

That's so interesting to me. Terry Ryan as more of an old school baseball guy I thought for sure would be in the camp of, getting the ABs. That's a great quote, thank you for sharing that! Really adds to the debate. It may be more of a 50/50 split than I originally thought. I know playing with some elite hitters some can "role outta bed and just hit" and others need spring training and then some to feel like they're in form. Mark Teixeira was a guy I always think of, very good hitter but always hit like .180 in April. I'd be curious if there were certain characteristics in hitters that point to 'this guy needs volume' to be in mid-season form or 'this guy can role out of bed and flat out hit'.

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1 hour ago, ashbury said:

I'm going to throw in another angle that I think supports yours.   During Terry Ryan's second tenure as GM, I got to hear him fill in for a scheduled panel discussion, and he spoke at length about being a GM.  I wish I had had a recording device!  But one thing he said stuck with me even if I'm sketchy on the details.  I think he was fielding a question from the floor about Delmon Young.

Ryan responded by saying that there were a lot of major league players even today who could hit .400, if the games were played twice a week.

For me, that encapsulates the dilemma these athletes face.  Sure, they need to find and stay in a rhythm.  But the game is exceedingly taxing when played six days out of seven most weeks, for week after week.

They don't call it the long season for nothing.

(I wish now that I could go ask him about his reasons for why Ted Williams could still do it in 1941. Being in the majors at age 22 probably had something to do with it.)

 

Last year, we had a chorus of complaints about how long our starters were on the mound. 

I could see the taxation on the bullpen and I would have loved to complain about it but I kept thinking about the analytics department.

The Twins have these employees who analyze stuff. We know they do and that stuff that they analyze is going to make it's way to field level and then utilized. If it doesn't make it to field level there is very little reason to have these employees who analyze stuff. If the manager ignores the stuff... there is very little reason to have the manager remain in place. They either work together or the manager or the department has to go. 

Personally... I wouldn't know where to begin to research the effects of rest (positive or negative) on each individual player but there is a part of me that is hoping that data like that is being researched by someone in these large analytic departments and the information is making it to field level and utilized appropriately and then I hope that results of that utilization is then reanalyzed by someone else in these large analytic departments and improved upon. 

Then as soon as you got Delmon Young all figured out. The coaches... we employ lots of them who are all employed for the purpose of making players better. Well... those guys make Delmon Young better and the data points change. 😀

 

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23 minutes ago, ashbury said:

I'm glad you didn't lead with this phrase because I would have been too busy laughing to read the rest of what you had to say.

I was giggling when I typed it. 

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It is just to bad nobody ever took the time to teach Buxton how to play the wall. Some say it can't be done with a player like Buxton. Not true. When Ron Leflore came out of prison and played for Detroit he ran into the wall or flagpole in center every other day. They worked with him every day and he figured it out. Buxton could have done it but instead he didn't get the help and got all the injuries that now make him a shell of what he could have been! And now the league may have figured him out with cutters and change-ups. He was looking like Sano the last half!! With the new CF from KC it looks like Buxton will be the DH. Maybe it will work.

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I appreciate Ash’s pushback on the endless negative narratives on Rocco and the FO.  i think people often dislike what they don’t understand.  

Rocco has a better career winning % than Gardenhire or Kelly.  Same for the FO vs Ryan.  They are not responsible for the majority of the 18 game post season losing streak.  (This information can be found on spreadsheets 🤣)  

I do get the fan fatigue with the post season failures.  It is soul crushing for devoted fans. It is likely we can all agree on that point.

Winning fix’s everything.  It erases concerns about lineups, pitching usage, base running strategies, rest days, etc..  winning is always the answer…the rest is just noise

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I would like to address that I have no issues with Rocco and the FO, I think they have done a good job of getting this franchise moving in the right direction. I've made my stance on that public before everyone took a running leap back on the FO bandwagon. The handling of Buxton or any player for that matter can get cloudy when you want something to happen so badly, judgement gets cloudy in the trenches of a baseball season. It's easy to say in hindsight, I know that. I just don't think we should treat Buxton like damaged goods because he is not. I also, don't blame anyone for their handling of him last year based on how everything played out. It's easy to lean towards caution when a player of his talent is bitten by the injury bug but with him healthy I hope we lean towards more days in CF than at DH. 

 

Thanks to all who joined in on the discussion. Go Twins!

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