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The Case Against the Twins Trading Luis Arraez


Twins Daily Contributor

Whenever the time comes for the MLB lockout to end, a flood of transactions will occur from almost every team across MLB. The Twins may not be the most active team with little time remaining on the Hot Stove market, but they will undoubtedly make a few moves when that time comes.

 

One of the significant speculations among Twins fans and beat writers is that the Twins will likely consider trading utility man Luis Arraez to a team to receive quality starting pitching in return. The main reason for this common speculation is because Arraez does not have a position he can currently play every day with Jorge Polanco at second base and Josh Donaldson at third. Not to mention the likelihood of Jose Miranda being called up to receive more playing time at third if the Twins decide to have Donaldson move into the DH role more often. 

That leaves left field the last place where Arraez plays comfortably, where he could be penned into the lineup each day. However, two players are everyday outfielders that the Twins hope to give more playing time to in Trevor Larnach and Alex Kirilloff and see improvements from their 2021 season in 2022 in left field. 

Could the Twins possibly consider playing Arraez at shortstop if they don't end up trading him to start the 2022 season? No. Only if they have everyone else who can play shortstop, injured, or unavailable on a given day. Arraez has only started at shortstop three times and totaled eight games at the position at the Major League level. All of these games took place in 2019 during his rookie season. 

The Twins may not be willing to take that gamble of starting Arraez at short every day if they believe they can sign one of the everyday shortstops remaining on the market or see a massive breakthrough from Royce Lewis and Austin Martin in the minors this season.

That leaves the only possible option of trading Arraez to give him the playing time he deserves with another team. Yet the Twins should not consider Arraez as a trade option to start pitching. He has become one of the best contact hitters in the game over the first three seasons of his career and a valuable asset to the clubhouse culture that started in 2019. But the number one reason why the Twins should not trade Arraez is to keep him around to fill infield voids that could come from player injuries.

Every fan or writer knows injuries will happen each season, but there is always the hope going into spring training that their team will be 100 percent healthy for as long as possible. No one likes to predict player injuries at any point in any sports season, but injuries in MLB are more common than ever each season than they ever have been in the history of the sport. 

Based on the injury history of Donaldson, most Twins fans would expect to see him on the IL at some point during the 2022 season if that does happen. Even though this writer does not hope it will, that will free up more playing time for Arraez at third or DH. Still, Arraez himself has a skeptical injury history, too, with his knees going into his age 25 season. That problem will follow him wherever he is for the longevity of his career, whether it's with the Twins or another team. 

Without Arraez, the Twins may not have another player who can consistently hit over .300 throughout the season. However, contact hitting is undervalued now in modern MLB, where three true outcome hitting is king. There will be a time again when teams need a player or two they can consistently count on for hitting over .300 and having a high on-base percentage to go along with it without having to hit home runs. 

Arraez is that guy for the Twins right now, and it's hard to say if they will have another .300 hitter in their lineup for 2022 if they end up trading him. 

The Twins may not have a position they can play Arraez at consistently right now, but that could change throughout the 2022 season. And even if the likes of Martin and Miranda are raking in the minors to start 2022, who's to say their performance will pan out equally in the majors right away? 

There is still another reality for the Twins in 2022, where Polanco and Donaldson are relatively healthy all season. If they keep Arraez, his playing time will become secondary to their own. And maybe Miranda if he repeats his 2021 success with the Saints in 2022 in the Bigs. 

If the Twins do not trade Arraez and the above reality plays out, they will likely rotate Arraez at 2B and 3B a couple of times a week to give either Donaldson or Polanco a day off at their position or time at DH. Arraez will likely be the DH for the Twins on Opening Day if they keep him. With the team's current appearance, that is likely the best spot to pen him in until Miranda arrives. 

Potential injuries, prospects not panning out in MLB right away, and the need for a .300 hitter in the lineup are undoubtedly good reasons for the Twins to hold off on trading Arraez for the 2022 season, possibly. Arraez could undoubtedly bring back a good starter if the right trade partner is found, but his bat and clubhouse presence might be worth holding onto to see if the Twins can pull together a winning 2022 season. 

 


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I like Arraez quite a bit.  I like what he brings to the table offensively.  I think his skillset is one this team needs.  The problem the Twins face with Arraez is that there are two veterans entrenched in his best positions defensively.  I wouldn't mind DH'ing him, but Sano should be there, IMHO, to free up 1B for Kirilloff.  The pieces, as currently configured, don't really lend to anything other than a trade.  That doesn't mean that Arraez is that piece, but somebody has to be.

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I totally agree with this. Some people act like injuries will never happen, and then are screwed when they do. Polanco had ankle surgery in 2 straight off-season's, although moving to second base this year likely helped him out in that regard. Donaldson has an injury history, although it did not bite him too bad this year. Those are two positions that Arraez can play well. There is a very real chance Miranda struggles right away in the big leagues, and that is another chance for Arraez to play. Just because he doesn't have a clear spot to play right now, doesn't mean there won't be one come May or June. I would much rather hang onto him unless the trade is too good to decline. Worst case scenario Arraez can play DH and give a starter the day off and play 5 games a week.

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I don't see the depth so many people see and agree trading Arraez isn't a necessity and shouldn't be done simply because there's a "surplus." As the OP states injuries will happen. They do every year for every team. Going into a season with your starting 9 and saying everyone beyond that is surplus doesn't make sense to me. And as of today Arraez is in the opening day starting 9 without a question.

Who is starting in LF for this team come opening day? It's not going to be Larnach, he's starting in AAA unless there's injuries in ST. Are they still ok with Kirilloff in the OF with Sano at 1B most of the time? I think they'd prefer Kirilloff at 1B where the defense is much better, but in order to get JD DH ABs they'll need to be willing to play Kirilloff in the OF still. I'd guess Kirilloff and Arraez are the primary LFers as of today.

Did Miranda have an incredible season last year? Yes. In the minors. I'm excited to see what he can bring to the Twins, but I'm not building my team assuming he's going to be as good as Arraez next year, or ever. I'm a "prospect lover" and want the Twins to build through the system, but that doesn't mean you open holes in the lineup for prospects before they've shown they can do things. We traded Hicks and Span to clear a place for Buxton and he was awful for years to start.

JD has 2 years left. He's not exactly a long-term solution. What happens if Miranda had a 1 year blip season at AA and AAA and isn't seamlessly stepping in at 3B for the next 6 or 7 years? We've traded Arraez and now have no 3B. Sano is likely gone after this year. Kirilloff moves to 1B fulltime. Kirilloff has wrist issues. Are they done or is he cursed to a career of wrist problems and never becomes the All Star he's capable of being? Who's DHing after Sano leaves?

I don't see surplus anywhere in the Twins organization. People pushed and pushed for OFer trades before last year because of the "surplus" of OFers in the system. Now the Twins have Buxton and Kepler and ??????. Would people prefer Rooker in LF over Arraez? I just don't see this surplus. The Twins have a really nice starting 8 (need a SS), but beyond that they have nothing but question marks and unproven players. If you get a great deal for a young, ML starter with years of control left by all means trade Arraez. But don't be shopping him, or anyone, at this point. The offense is good, but certainly not overly deep.

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I don't disagree.  I think the Twins need to and will keep him this year for sure.  Too many unknowns in the possible replacements for Arraez.  We all expected Kirilloff to take off at the MLB level right and that didn't happen.  So I think some patience is required here.  If Miranda, Martin and Lewis get a chance to succeed at the MLB level do then I think Arraez is the most likely player to be moved.  If not then we still need Arraez in the insurance role he provides.

The thing you have to keep in mind though is we cannot keep them all.  At some point someone has to go.  Whether that is Nick Gordon, Donaldson, Arraez or Kepler or someone else.  If we don't want to lose good prospects we need to make room.  to make room someone has to be traded or released.

We have great depth at the 2nd base position.  Martin and Arraez might have matching skillsets with Martin having better speed and likely better defense.  They are both Contact hitters with a good eye at the plate.  The Twins won't keep both of them and Arraez will get more expensive soon.  Doing the math he looks like the guy to eventually trade to me.

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When Donaldson is healthy I think playing Arraez at 2B and Polanco at SS will give the Twins the best chance to win. Even when Donaldson is injured I would slot Miranda at 3B and keep Polanco and Arraez up the middle. They won a lot of games with the pair up the middle in spite of their defensive short comings.

If they can trade Arraez for a better fit like a starting shortstop or number three starter with control than by all means make that trade, I would have to be blown away to trade him for players projected to debut 2023 or later.

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23 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

I don't see the depth so many people see and agree trading Arraez isn't a necessity and shouldn't be done simply because there's a "surplus."

100% agree, without Arraez I don't see depth anywhere except maybe catcher.  Since 2016 AK has played 340 games, At this point Laranch and Celestino shouldn't be counted on (Rooker?), and Miranda has never played a major league game. Lewis hasn't played in 2 years and had a .649 OPS in AA the last time he played, and Martin while having a decent enough first year certainly didn't scream skip AAA and start in the majors.

To me the Twins offense depth is very similiar to their pitching depth, damn you hope most hold their own and succeed, but things could get real ugly real fast, because there really isn't anything in the pipeline after these prospects (close to being ready)

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1 minute ago, TwinsDr2021 said:

100% agree, without Arraez I don't see depth anywhere except maybe catcher.  Since 2016 AK has played 340 games, At this point Laranch and Celestino shouldn't be counted on (Rooker?), and Miranda has never played a major league game. Lewis hasn't played in 2 years and had a .649 OPS in AA the last time he played, and Martin while having a decent enough first year certainly didn't scream skip AAA and start in the majors.

To me the Twins offense depth is very similiar to their pitching depth, damn you hope most hold their own and succeed, but things could get real ugly real fast, because there really isn't anything in the pipeline after these prospects (close to being ready)

Precisely. You were much more concise in your statement than I was, but that's exactly where I'm at. Have lots of hope, and a bunch of faith, in these young guys succeeding, but lets see it before we proclaim a hitter of Arraez's caliber is simply surplus.

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Several articles of late talking about whether or not to trade Arraez.  Has anyone heard anything, even a hint, from the FO that they are talking/thinking about trading him?  I am certain they would listen to offers, but I haven't seen anything from people who are in contact with them ever mentioning moving Arraez.  Or did I just miss it?

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No player is off-limits for the right price.  If there is a great deal to be had then pull the trigger, but do not just move him for a meh player because you believe you have depth.  I know fans wish he had more power, but his ability to put ball in play all over the field and work counts does not come around often.  He is not the same type of hitter, but his path reminds me so much of Jose Altuve.  Both were overlooked because of stature and lack of power.  Altuve had very little pop early in his career but just kept on getting hits and made his way into lineup.  He eventually learned how to hit with some power and got some MVP votes.  First double digit HR season was his age 25 season with 15.

Will Arraez develop power?  I do not know, but he is entering his age 25 season now.  His swing does not suggest he will ever be a 20 plus HR guy, but if he can learn some power to keep defenses honest so his line drives land in there and OF does not cheat in a ton.  

I personally think it is easier to teach a contact guy how to have more power, than a power guy how to get more contact. Maybe he stays as just a .350 plus OBP with ..400 slugging about.  I would be willing to send that out in the line up regularly.  

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12 minutes ago, roger said:

Several articles of late talking about whether or not to trade Arraez.  Has anyone heard anything, even a hint, from the FO that they are talking/thinking about trading him?  I am certain they would listen to offers, but I haven't seen anything from people who are in contact with them ever mentioning moving Arraez.  Or did I just miss it?

I haven't seen anything about the FO wanting to trade Arraez other than their broad statement at the trade deadline that they would listen to offers on just about anyone on the roster.  Names like Buxton, Kepler, Pineda etc were definitely out there but I don't remember much talk about Arraez.

IMO, the Arraez trade talk picked up after the Berrios trade with the Twins getting Martin.   Ever since then there have been several sites reading the tea leaves about the Twins trading Arraez.  Even those of us on this site see it as a likely future outcome if Martin continues to do what he does.

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Will 2023 be too late to maximize value in trades or is 2022 be the the year maximize value. What is the risk factor of injury in comparison between 2021 & 2022? What will the market be for Arraez in 2022-23 and what will the market offer for Arraez in 2022-23.If a trade of Arraez for a better asset who surpasses Arraez’s production, then it’s good to do it in 2021-22.. Then if the  new player improves the Twins  record to 85-90 wins! Then why not make the trade in 2022? I think there are a couple very good starting pitchers that have trade value equal to Arraez’s trade value on the market now and fill the hole between the starting rotation and the prospects on the farm and improve the Twins record by 5 to 12 wins next year. 

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  • C Depth - Garver, Jeffers, Rortvedt
  • 1B Depth - Kirilloff, Rooker, Sano, Larnach Donaldson, Garver
  • 2B Depth - Polanco, Arraez, Gordon, Miranda
  • 3B Depth - Donaldson, Miranda, Arraez
  • SS Depth - ?, Gordon, Arraez, Palacios
  • LF Depth - Rooker, Celestino, Larnach, Cave
  • CF Depth - Buxton, Celestino, Cave
  • RF Depth - Kepler, Celestino, Larnach, Cave
  • DH Depth - Sano, Garver, Donaldson, Rooker

There's a lot of depth... and that doesn't take Martin into consideration who Falvey talked about potentially using as the starting shortstop in 2022. Arraez is a 2B, which is where Martin is expected to end up according to the scouting community. We have more than enough depth there. Trading a starting 2B caliber player who is blocked at a position like Arraez, if he brings in good value, puts both Arraez and the Twins in a better position on paper.

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These are all valid and good points Theo, and I would add each reason is why Arraez is the Twins 2nd best trade asset to Polanco.  I'm not trading Polanco.  I'm building with him going forward.  In another post, I laid out how I would keep Arraez and trade Austin Martin if that is what it would take to acquire an Ace potential pitcher from the Marlins like Sixto Sanchez.  Why would Miami trade a pitcher like that ?  Because they already have TWO Ace level young pitchers in Rogers and Alcantara a STRONG #2 in Pablo Lopez as well as a very talented #3 in Cabrera.  They also have young, high ceiling pitchers like Meyer and Luzardo.  Quite simply, they're LOADED with young pitching but VERY short on offense.  Arraez is ready to step into a place in Miami's lineup right now.  Austin Martin would take a little longer, half a season at minimum. 

I'm NOT trading Miranda.  He's playing 3B when Donaldson DH's.  He's playing 2B when Polanco DH's.  He's playing 1B when Sano DH's (which might be very often).  He may not hit .300 like Arraez but his power and run creation will be superior.  I'm risking it with Miranda.  He's not starting 2022 in St. Paul.  What more does he have to prove there ? 

Arraez is one of my favorite players on the Twins.  But I'm moving him for Sixto Sanchez if possible.  I'll be 64 in May.  I saw Rod Carew when he came up in 1967.  You can lay all the "comparisons" you want side by side of Carew and Arraez, even down to BOTH of them having knee problems.  There ARE similarities.  There is only one Rod Carew.  To Miami, I stress the heck out of those similarities.  But there is only one Rod Carew.  I'm looking to add Sanchez to a staff that could see Balazovic, Winder, Duran and Canterino to go with Ryan and Ober.  Arraez is my #1 chip to get him.  Austin Martin is #2.

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I do think Arraez could play shortstop... but he'd have to show up in great condition to pull it off. His weight limits his range and makes his knees injury prone. If he really conditioned himself, I believe his arm is strong enough and he could potentially handle the spot. As he was last year and previous years? No. This is similar to how I feel about Miguel Sano. He has all the tools necessary to be an outstanding 3rd baseman... but it would require dropping 60lbs.

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I posted before reading everyone's comments because I just wanted to say what I think before taking in what others think. bean has laid out the depth (although I don't like seeing Cave listed anywhere :)  Nice job bean)!!

Look, I don't think anyone wants to give Arraez (or anyone else for that matter) away for "just a guy."  

We can certainly trade Arraez because he honestly hasn't had THAT big of a positive effect on our offense.  Rocco refuses to put him at the top of the order consistently and in the lineup everyday.  And Arraez in LF is O.K. in spurts but not as your "starting" LF.

There WILL be injuries, but Miranda, Gordon, possibly Martin sooner than later are all capable options.  Especially Miranda. Some will field better, some will hit with more power.  Arraez is NOT a linchpin of our offense.  He's a great Contact Hitter/On Base Machine,  but he's not Buxton, Polanco, Donaldson, Sano (when he's swinging well).  I'll bet you my house mortgage Kiriloff has a greater offensive impact this season than Arraez.  It's tough to make an argument that missing the 7th, 8th or 9th best offensive player in your lineup is a death blow to your offense.  If you can add a solid MLG starting pitcher (which we currently literally have almost NONE) you trade a guy like Arraez.

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I like Arraez but he's expendable. Defensively he'll catch the ball if the ball is hit at him but he has no range. It pains me to see catchable balls bleed through the infield when he plays the infield. Arraez absolutely cannot play SS. We have a lot depth where he's ok defensively (we have Gordon, Lewis, Miranda, Martin and Larnach which all are better defensively) at positions which are very easy to find.

His at bats are very entertaining so he still has some hype. As teams get to know him the OF will play him "in" because he has no pop, the INF will play him "back" because he's not fast. Though he'll gets some hits against poor defenses, good defenses will probably limit his hits. His value has dropped considerably from last year and next year it'll drop considerably more as his hype fades. Last year I advocated the Twins to seek out a great pitcher in trade for Arraez, this year we can still find a good trade but next year will be too late.

All being said, should the Twins trade Arraez? the answer is a resounding yes, if they are are serious team. Will the Twins trade Arraez? I'd be very surprised if they did

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1 hour ago, Old fox said:

Will 2023 be too late to maximize value in trades or is 2022 be the the year maximize value. What is the risk factor of injury in comparison between 2021 & 2022? What will the market be for Arraez in 2022-23 and what will the market offer for Arraez in 2022-23.If a trade of Arraez for a better asset who surpasses Arraez’s production, then it’s good to do it in 2021-22.. Then if the  new player improves the Twins  record to 85-90 wins! Then why not make the trade in 2022? I think there are a couple very good starting pitchers that have trade value equal to Arraez’s trade value on the market now and fill the hole between the starting rotation and the prospects on the farm and improve the Twins record by 5 to 12 wins next year. 

I am not sure the return will be significantly different for 4 years of Arraez versus 3.  Three years is still a long time to control a player.  The more pressing matter is what team needs a player like Arraez and what are they willing to give up.  The bottom 10 teams don't need him because they are already trying to turn over assets to rebuild their teams.  The top 10 teams don't need him because they already have someone better at the position.  It is risky to trade in the division so count out another 5 teams.  I think there are only two or three teams that might have a real need for him.

The other day we saw an article with Seattle trading for him but what would they really be willing to give up?  They need starting pitching as bad as the Twins so are not going to give any of that up.  They likely won't even give up their top pitching prospects who are close to ready because they need them.  I think it is going to be hard to find a way to line up with prospective buyers at least in the offseason unless they are willing to take prospects that are further away.

It seems to me the best chance to get value for Arraez would be at the deadline when injuries have hurt teams and they are looking for bats for the playoff run.  That seems like the better opportunity.  Still I think the Twins will be hard pressed to get close to ready pitching for Arraez.  They probably could get value going for younger highly valued pitching assets which carries much higher risk but also high upside.  They might be able to get a close to ready bat for Arraez but it likely depends on the team they are trading with.

IMO even if the Twins found a taker for Arraez I don't think they would trade for a starting pitcher on another team with a couple of years of control left.  Why do I think that?  Well they just traded one at the deadline in Berrios so I don't see them wanting to trade in the opposite direction losing years of control and adding salary with less years of control.  At least not at this time.

They have so many unknown's on the 40 man they need to unravel some of that to move forward IMO.  They have, Jordan Balazovic, Jhoan Duran, Cole Sands, Drew Strotman, Josh Winder, Jovani Moran and Chris Vallimont as young pitchers that have yet to pitch at the MLB level. They have Lewis Thorpe, Randy Dobnak, Jharel Cotton and Griffin Jax as players they need to decide to keep or move on from.  They have Nick Gordon, Royce Lewis, Jose Miranda, Gilberto Celestino, Alex Kirilloff, Trevor Larnach, Brent Rooker who have limited to no MLB playing time and no idea if they can play at that level.  That is 18 players on the 40 man that are unknowns at this point.  They need to figure out more knowns on both the pitching and position player side.  So I don't see them absolutely needing or wanting even more pitching prospects they need to add to the 40 man. 

I don't think they will be ready to make trades until they better know what they currently have.

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A man currently without a position and you would like better alternatives if he were to play shortstop, first base,, left field or third base.

 

You have years, at best...but he might become to expensive for you in his arbitration climb.

 

Does he have his most return back to you now as a trade piece, especially if combined with another player?

 

And, if looking for a .300 hitter on a regular bases...isn't that why Buxton was signed?

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, Doctor Gast said:

His at bats are very entertaining so he still has some hype. As teams get to know him the OF will play him "in" because he has no pop, the INF will play him "back" because he's not fast. Though he'll gets some hits against poor defenses, good defenses will probably limit his hits. His value has dropped considerably from last year and next year it'll drop considerably more as his hype fades. Last year I advocated the Twins to seek out a great pitcher in trade for Arraez, this year we can still find a good trade but next year will be too late.

Teams know him. There's no secrets to a player who's been in the league for 2 years. They have his spray chart, exit velos, and every tendency you can think of plus 20 you can't. And he still gets hits. The OP has his spray chart. I'm confused as to how someone can look at that chart and say good defenses can limit his hits. He literally has hits from line to line. And lots of them. Teams have been playing their outfield in and infield back on him his entire career and he still finds the holes.

I won't be upset if they get a good return (people mention one of the young Marlins pitchers as a possible return and I'd be good with that) on a trade for Arraez, but suggesting he's suddenly going to stop hitting because defenses will "get to know him" isn't based on the reality of the situation. The only thing likely to stop Arraez from hitting in the next handful of years is his knees. And that may be reason enough to trade him now, but you don't get figured out and stopped by defensive positioning when you have a spray chart like his.

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4 hours ago, bean5302 said:
  • C Depth - Garver, Jeffers, Rortvedt
  • 1B Depth - Kirilloff, Rooker, Sano, Larnach Donaldson, Garver
  • 2B Depth - Polanco, Arraez, Gordon, Miranda
  • 3B Depth - Donaldson, Miranda, Arraez
  • SS Depth - ?, Gordon, Arraez, Palacios
  • LF Depth - Rooker, Celestino, Larnach, Cave
  • CF Depth - Buxton, Celestino, Cave
  • RF Depth - Kepler, Celestino, Larnach, Cave
  • DH Depth - Sano, Garver, Donaldson, Rooker

There's a lot of depth... and that doesn't take Martin into consideration who Falvey talked about potentially using as the starting shortstop in 2022. Arraez is a 2B, which is where Martin is expected to end up according to the scouting community. We have more than enough depth there. Trading a starting 2B caliber player who is blocked at a position like Arraez, if he brings in good value, puts both Arraez and the Twins in a better position on paper.

There's a lot of names, but that list is not impressive to me.

Garver- Can't stay healthy and is on the wrong side of 30 already playing the most demanding position physically. Stud when he's healthy, though.
Jeffers- Are we sure he can hit? Nobody can claim he's proved it yet.
Rortvedt- Are we sure he can hit above .180 even?
Kirilloff- Are we sure he'll suddenly get over his almost yearly wrist injuries? Very likely stud if he can stay healthy.
Sano- Is most likely gone after this year.
Rooker- We know he can't field, are we sure he can hit? Certainly hasn't proved he can hit.
Larnach- Won't kill you in the field like Rooker, but isn't very good. We sure he's the first month Larnach and not the last 3 months Larnach?
Polanco- Stud.
Arraez- Hits/OB machine we know isn't above average at 3 positions, but isn't embarassing.
Gordon- Brings much needed speed and athleticism. Can he hit? Certainly not an everyday guy.
Miranda- We sure his 1 year sample is the real deal or the rest of his career when he wasn't even good enough to get picked in the rule 5? I have faith, but there's been better prospects who have failed.
Donaldson- Not getting any younger. Will spend more and more time at DH for next 2 years if he doesn't get traded before then.
Palacios- Why do we think he's a major leaguer? If that's what anyone thinks he'll be taken in the rule 5 and won't be here anyways.
Celestino- Looks like a very good option as future 4th OFer.
Cave- Really? Cave's part of the reason we can afford to move Arraez? He's not even on the 40-man and no major league team claimed him.
Buxton- Can't stay healthy, but is a stud when he is healthy.
Kepler- Big time defender, some time hitter.

I don't see the depth here. Arraez is a proven ML hitter. He's 1 of 6 or 7 on your list. That's not even a full starting lineup! I love prospects and have high hopes for many of the young guys we have, but we need to quit acting like Jeffers, Rortvedt, Kirilloff, Rooker, Larnach, Gordon, Miranda, and Celestino are any sort of sure things. Kirilloff looks every part the future star, but wrist injuries are killers for hitters. The rest of them have had almost no major league success at all let alone sustained success. So yes, we have a lot of names. But, no, we don't have great depth.

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7 hours ago, bean5302 said:
  • C Depth - Garver, Jeffers, Rortvedt
  • 1B Depth - Kirilloff, Rooker, Sano, Larnach Donaldson, Garver
  • 2B Depth - Polanco, Arraez, Gordon, Miranda
  • 3B Depth - Donaldson, Miranda, Arraez
  • SS Depth - ?, Gordon, Arraez, Palacios
  • LF Depth - Rooker, Celestino, Larnach, Cave
  • CF Depth - Buxton, Celestino, Cave
  • RF Depth - Kepler, Celestino, Larnach, Cave
  • DH Depth - Sano, Garver, Donaldson, Rooker

There's a lot of depth... and that doesn't take Martin into consideration who Falvey talked about potentially using as the starting shortstop in 2022. Arraez is a 2B, which is where Martin is expected to end up according to the scouting community. We have more than enough depth there. Trading a starting 2B caliber player who is blocked at a position like Arraez, if he brings in good value, puts both Arraez and the Twins in a better position on paper.

C - Actual depth here. Hopefully Jeffers develops more offensively but this looks like a solid group.

1B - Rooker doesn't have a ML bat or glove, Sano is gone after this year, Garver and Donaldson are both FAs after the following season and I'd guess neither are too keen on switching positions. That leaves Kirilloff (coming off a wrist injury) and Larnach (who has never played 1B professionally or in collegiately.) 

2B - Polanco is solid. Gordon hasn't shown he's even capable of handing a utility role. Miranda hasn't played a single inning for the Twins. If you're trading Arraez you don't also get to count him as depth. 

SS - Nobody. They literally don't have a SS for this season, plus there's a good chance Lewis and Martin don't fill in there either. 

LF - Touched on Rooker already. Cave has been abysmal for 2 seasons now. Larnach was a poor defender at the position in addition to his hitting struggles last season. Celestino wasn't ready. He's going to need to develop some sort of power if you're handing him a starting corner OF spot. 

CF - Buxton. They need a 4th OFer capable of playing CF. 

RF - Kepler is solid, the rest have been covered. 

DH - Can be used as overflow and/or a rotating door so I'm not going to worry about locking in a specific player. 

Maybe we need to define depth here. A body to plug in doesn't constitute a fail-safe in my view. There needs to be some level of skill floor involved before counting on players as actual depth. 

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I like Arraez, don’t trade him because you have depth, but…

1) The Twins are woefully short at pitcher, especially starting

2) very few options in free agent starting pitching

3) need to give value in trade to get value in trade

If Arraez really is “under valued” as the OP states, hang on to him, he’s more valuable to the Twins than in trade.

if another team values him enough as the centerpiece of a deal that brings back good controllable starting pitching that doesn’t part with too many prospects, pull the trigger.

as others have mentioned depth is critical, that goes for pitching too. There’s even less depth pitching than hitting.

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A few points to make: 1. Arraez is a really good mlb hitter; 2. Arraez is not a DH, SS, or LF by any stretch; 3. It is ok to have Arraez to back up Polanco, Donaldson, and Miranda; 4. Please, never compare anyone to Rod Carew; 5. Appreciate all attempts to fix the Twins.

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9 hours ago, tony&rodney said:

A few points to make: 1. Arraez is a really good mlb hitter; 2. Arraez is not a DH, SS, or LF by any stretch; 3. It is ok to have Arraez to back up Polanco, Donaldson, and Miranda; 4. Please, never compare anyone to Rod Carew; 5. Appreciate all attempts to fix the Twins.

Do you have to hit home runs to DH? Why? Was Paul Molitor a bad DH because of that?

I understand liking Rod Carew alot, he's a high bar to clear, one of the best to ever don a Twins Uni. Isn't that a complement? What's so wrong with that?

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16 hours ago, TopGunn#22 said:

I posted before reading everyone's comments because I just wanted to say what I think before taking in what others think. bean has laid out the depth (although I don't like seeing Cave listed anywhere :)  Nice job bean)!!

Look, I don't think anyone wants to give Arraez (or anyone else for that matter) away for "just a guy."  

We can certainly trade Arraez because he honestly hasn't had THAT big of a positive effect on our offense.  Rocco refuses to put him at the top of the order consistently and in the lineup everyday.  And Arraez in LF is O.K. in spurts but not as your "starting" LF.

There WILL be injuries, but Miranda, Gordon, possibly Martin sooner than later are all capable options.  Especially Miranda. Some will field better, some will hit with more power.  Arraez is NOT a linchpin of our offense.  He's a great Contact Hitter/On Base Machine,  but he's not Buxton, Polanco, Donaldson, Sano (when he's swinging well).  I'll bet you my house mortgage Kiriloff has a greater offensive impact this season than Arraez.  It's tough to make an argument that missing the 7th, 8th or 9th best offensive player in your lineup is a death blow to your offense.  If you can add a solid MLG starting pitcher (which we currently literally have almost NONE) you trade a guy like Arraez.

I find it hard to agree with the concept that Rocco refusing to use a .300 and .350 OBP hitter in the proper spot in the lineup, if at all some days, as being a reason to rate the hitter lower.  If anything, it rates the manager lower.  And to say that Arraez is the 7th, 8th, or 9th, best offensive player in this lineup is bizarre to me.  Lastly, saying that 2 complete rookies and a guy who played half a season or so, not to mention Kiriloff only seeing a partial season, all rate higher than a proven player such as Arraez is a gamble you are clearly willing to take, but I wouldn't bet MY house mortgage on it. 

For the right pitcher he has to be considered, even in a package deal.  Otherwise, he plays ahead of virtually everyone you mentioned until they prove they are better, which is entirely possible, but not guaranteed. 

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I love arraez but you totally blew credibility by comparing him to Rod Carew.  There is very little depth at this point.  That could change IF the young talent in minors progresses well.  To rely on several players with little or no major league experience with a non existent major league starting pitching staff could be a disaster.  I wonder how long it will take for people to complain about the team when they are out of contention by the end of the first month.  While a team littered with prospects could surprise and contend it is much more likely looking at a 90 loss season unless they add some veterans to a pitching staff that is currently minor league.

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19 hours ago, jorgenswest said:

When Donaldson is healthy I think playing Arraez at 2B and Polanco at SS will give the Twins the best chance to win. Even when Donaldson is injured I would slot Miranda at 3B and keep Polanco and Arraez up the middle. They won a lot of games with the pair up the middle in spite of their defensive short comings.

If they can trade Arraez for a better fit like a starting shortstop or number three starter with control than by all means make that trade, I would have to be blown away to trade him for players projected to debut 2023 or later.

I think keeping Polo at 2nd and not at ss as much as possible is the best thing for the club and for Polo. Arraez is not a very good 2b anyways.

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I like Arraez a lot, an old fashioned contact hitter who rarely strikes out. Having a surplus of good players at certain positions is a nice problem to have. But if a trade including Arraez can bring a proven young starter I think the FO should consider it. Gordon can serve as the utility player role with a lot more speed than Arraez. The team appears to have a lot of potential young starting pitchers who could make a ML roster. But their lack of proven pitching is the team’s biggest issue right now. 

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Only way I trade Arraez is for a front line starting pitcher. I would pencil him in at 3B every day until he proves to me he can't play the position. I think with more playing time there he fills in rather well. maybe not great but keeping his bat in the lineup makes up for an error or lack of range occasionally. Donaldson slides to the full-time DH role. Both have knee issues and if one of them breaks down then I go to Miranda to cover for them. With that in mind, the Twins need to get a SS that can cover some ground and help fill the hole between SS and 3B. That too makes fielding easier for whoever they put at 3b. 

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