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FO's tentativeness is killing the team


Twinfan603
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11 hours ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

I'm in the same boat as the OP but also, let's see how this plays out before crucifying the front office. I'm super-down on them (like to the point where I'm actually starting to be convinced they need to go) but making a decision when we're only 20% of the way through the offseason isn't really fair to them, either.

I agree. I’m have little to no confidence in them but they could salvage the rotation with trades for a Marlins pitcher and A’s pitcher, sign Danny Duffy.... that might take them out of disaster mode, Maybe they could get Rodon. They need a LF, Castellanos or Canha, NOT Cave. SO it is too early - I wish they weren’t so secretive.

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Truth is, there are so many likes here I could use several quotes, but will instead just offer up my $.02 and let it fly.

While the FO doesn't exactly have a perfect track record for the patient approach, they have done well there in practice as well as theory. That means, a few years ago they waited and got "great value" for Lynn, etc, even though it didn't turn out. But they also signed Cruz, twice, and grabbed Pineda and a few other solid arms/players, and made late trades for Odorizzi and Maeda. 

I am NOT defending the FO because I'm kinda pissed off right now they didn't just keep Berrios for all the reasons already disucussed, even though I think there were ways around a 7yr deal, etc, etc. But I KINDA get a contract for a pitcher being a sunk cost and not being smart. EXCEPT, we're not only talking home grown talent, but a durable arm. And, unfortunately, almost EVERY pitcher WILL have an injury at some point. Odds say Berrios will have one as well. But KNOWING that, you still want to bet against him? I wouldn't have, but they did. OK. I kinda agree with the Bonnes idea of having Martin and SWR AND the $ to spend if you spend the $ wisely.

So where is the "wise" money going to be spent? 

No question the Maeda surgery changed the perspective of any plan of a re-tool. But there is real opportunity to add to what the Twins have without blowing things up. And that is what is frustrating me right now. 

Just shelving the Buxton issue for a moment...which shouldn't be that damn hard with a fair AAV and allow for over $100M with incentives and just get it done...let's just talk about pitching.

The Twins FO is patient, we know this. But are they missing the boat RIGHT NOW? There are and will be TOP pitching options and smaller but quality options available a month or two from now when the smoke clears. And there are absolutely trade options that are available now, and a month or so when the CBA gets settled. 

Falvey and Levine are far smarter than myself and far more plugged in as to the market and projections. I'm sure they have a plan. But as a semi-intelligent individual/fan, I'm really confused as to why they aren't "reading the room" and seeing you have the opportunity to make ONE splash with roster $ and then make a smaller move or two. OR, you could make a pair of medium $14M-ish moves and a smaller 3rd move. 

But a number of those quality/solid rotation options are disappearing right now. What are they waiting for? Are they waiting for ONE GUY and a couple decent arms? Are they really looking to "deplete" the system they've been trying to build up for trades? 

Not going to lie, I have been hugely impressed, for the most part, for what the FO has done from the Twins roster and competitive teams and 2 ALC champions down to the changes made in the milb system to their drafts. Hell, they've done so well with coaches and instructors that they've been poached again and again.

Funny how some of us forget to remember how bad we stunk before a few good years. So I will give SOME  leeway.  And I believe ownership will allow a certain amount of leeway.

But 2022 is a defining moment for our current FO. And they may have a long term plan that we don't see or understand right now. I get that.  But you have a real opportunity to add to your roster and make something happen with that roster via $ and/or a smart trade.

Right NOW, PERCEPTION, shows you have no plan other than waiting for something to drop in to your lap. So are you actually re-tooling or re-building? You'd better have an answer because the market seems to be racing ahead of you.

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1 hour ago, DocBauer said:

Awesome! Almost did a "spit take" when I read this!  I bet Brian would have a huge chuckle at this.  But it does make me wonder...what happened to Brian? I really miss him.

Me too. He had the right spirit for this type of site. 

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10 hours ago, bean5302 said:

It's not killing the Twins, it's choosing their path for them. The paths at this point are big trades or full rebuild. I'm leaning towards full rebuild. The correct way to start a rebuild is to make moves boldly and quickly. The worst way is to hang on to lingering assets, and be indecisive because once you've started down the path, you've already burned the bridge behind you.

 

Yep, that is what they did in the seventies and it worked so very well, but wait, then it was 17 years before they were top league, now it has already been 30, but hey fans will wait and gladly pay to watch what amounts to a mid-level AAA team,

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If the Buxton situation is such a huge linchpin on their off-season, they can't wait till spring training. Push for a decision now. Even if the trade route is chosen, it still could be a while before they know who they are getting which could impact their free agency plans. Slow doesn't win this race, giddy up!

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I'm with you on this Doc Bauer.  I wasn't,  until I read your take.  I was already in panic mode but you somewhat talked me off the ledge.  :)   

I don't understand why at least Pineda isn't resigned yet.  If DeSclafani and Wood going back to the Giants was obvious shouldn't Pineda back to the Twins be so as well ?  I mean heck !  We've got TWO rookies in our rotation who will both be on innings limits.  Two guys.  That's it !  Graveman 3 years for $24 million would have been a great move for the Twins.  They could have made him the closer and decided whether to keep Rogers or deal him (the Mets have "Eyes" for Rogers according to Rotoworld).  Instead, he goes to the White Sox to be a set up man for Hendricks ?  I'm frustrated.  But Doc has given me some medicine to calm me down.  At least through Thanksgiving.  

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20 hours ago, nicksaviking said:

My prediction: The front office and ownership are going to pull this club in two different directions and set the club back a half decade. Falvey will start the rebuild by trading away Rodgers, Polanco and Kepler and sit out meaningful free agency, but while they wait for top dollar for Buxton, ownership will be taking so much heat that they'll step in and force the front office to extend him in February, leaving the Twins with one good player standing in the burning rubble that was once a decent roster.

I think this might very well happen. Maybe not all three (Rodgers, Polanco and Kepler) are traded but two of them are but then ownership signs Buxton and we'll hear for seven years how Buxton's salary is holding the team back.

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I'm not sure I'm as worried as others but it's mostly b/c I didn't expect this FO to do much. To be competitive next year, they needed to completely overhaul the pitching staff and they don't have enough internal options to make that happen. Pohlads won't let them increase payroll so they're sorta stuck in no-man's land. To compete, they needed three strong starting pitchers, which they can't afford. 

Instead, Levine suggested a few weeks ago that the Twins will be looking at multi-inning relievers and we will probably be a pitching staff where only two or three pitchers even throw 100 innings and each game is a five pitcher game. Basically, a reenactment of last season with a few new faces.

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1 hour ago, gunnarthor said:

I'm not sure I'm as worried as others but it's mostly b/c I didn't expect this FO to do much. To be competitive next year, they needed to completely overhaul the pitching staff and they don't have enough internal options to make that happen. Pohlads won't let them increase payroll so they're sorta stuck in no-man's land. To compete, they needed three strong starting pitchers, which they can't afford. 

Instead, Levine suggested a few weeks ago that the Twins will be looking at multi-inning relievers and we will probably be a pitching staff where only two or three pitchers even throw 100 innings and each game is a five pitcher game. Basically, a reenactment of last season with a few new faces.

This is why I'm not worried, because it's what I expect. I don't love it, but I never expected them to acquire two, let alone three, good starters this off season. 

I have my doubts about one, frankly.

Losing Lewis to injury two years in a row, and having their closest pitching prospects get hurt really set their plans back. I don't need to like it to acknowledge it. 

I don't have high expectations next year, really more like 23 or 24 before I expect them to be good again. 

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I am guessing the same as you are .  It is looking like we will have Ober and Ryan at about 140 innings, and a bunch of the rest at about 100, with multiple pitchers going up and down.  The only thing I see pushing them is if Buxton says he will sign if they will contend.  But it is getting late for that to happen. 

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1 hour ago, Mike Sixel said:

This is why I'm not worried, because it's what I expect. I don't love it, but I never expected them to acquire two, let alone three, good starters this off season. 

I have my doubts about one, frankly.

Losing Lewis to injury two years in a row, and having their closest pitching prospects get hurt really set their plans back. I don't need to like it to acknowledge it. 

I don't have high expectations next year, really more like 23 or 24 before I expect them to be good again. 

They better hope it isn't 24 before they are good again. No fans 20, 16K a game in 21, and if they are terrible again and running bullpen games out there nightly, it will be even lower in 22, by 23 they will have to be giving away tickets. And if they can't figure out a way to get their games on streaming, well.....

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15 hours ago, Greglw3 said:

I agree. I’m have little to no confidence in them but they could salvage the rotation with trades for a Marlins pitcher and A’s pitcher, sign Danny Duffy.... that might take them out of disaster mode, Maybe they could get Rodon. They need a LF, Castellanos or Canha, NOT Cave. SO it is too early - I wish they weren’t so secretive.

I don’t think any of the Cs you named will be starting in LF - well, Cave might get a few, but we’ll probably see Arraez, Larnach, Kirilloff and Rooker out there more. Sure, those FAs would be a nice addition but I don’t think they can afford to skimp on the more important positions like the rotation and SS.

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If the Twins do not act fast enough, as the original post states, people are upset.  If they act too fast and miss out on someone better for same price, people will be upset.  There is no perfect way to go about any off-season, but this one in particular.  We also have no clue what is being talked about behind closed doors.  People here will speculate about who Twins should target, but Twins pay a lot of money to a full team of people to assess the FA out there and who they should target and who they should not.  Signing one will make it that they cannot sign others.  

Maybe, they will be stuck dumpster diving and have a wasted season, or maybe they get the guy they wanted all along.  Only time will tell.  However, getting on them for not jumping at any of the guys signed already and throwing huge sums of money at them to get them here seems a little over the top.  

I always laugh when people just assume had we offered the same contract the player would have came to us.  I am not saying any were taking some discount to go where they did, but even if we say offered 1 more million, that does not mean they would change their mind and come to us.  Just maybe other factors drove their decision to sign with where they went.  For many that returned to their team maybe they just liked staying there. For the couple that went elsewhere maybe they had reasons they wanted to go there.  The fact that they signed quickly suggests they were not looking to get into a bidding war either.  

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I have a crazy idea for the Buxton situation, so crazy it just might work. Hear me out.

So what the front office does, is they non-tender Buxton. Buxton then becomes a free agent. But then, the Twins by bidding on Buxton as a free agent, can get a clearer idea of his market value and make the most competitive offer.

Possible downside is Buxton signs with another team. 

Who’s with me?!?!!!!1!

:) 

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26 minutes ago, Hosken Bombo Disco said:

I have a crazy idea for the Buxton situation, so crazy it just might work. Hear me out.

So what the front office does, is they non-tender Buxton. Buxton then becomes a free agent. But then, the Twins by bidding on Buxton as a free agent, can get a clearer idea of his market value and make the most competitive offer.

Possible downside is Buxton signs with another team. 

Who’s with me?!?!!!!1!

:) 

I have to think with his potential, another club would crush the Twins offer. Probably add player friendly opt outs that the Twins have never and likely would never include.

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1 hour ago, Hosken Bombo Disco said:

I have a crazy idea for the Buxton situation, so crazy it just might work. Hear me out.

So what the front office does, is they non-tender Buxton. Buxton then becomes a free agent. But then, the Twins by bidding on Buxton as a free agent, can get a clearer idea of his market value and make the most competitive offer.

Possible downside is Buxton signs with another team. 

Who’s with me?!?!!!!1!

:) 

So, lemme see if I understand...you want the Twins to be "in on" Buxton. 

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On 11/23/2021 at 11:20 AM, Brock Beauchamp said:

If this front office needs to enter a rebuild phase in year five of their tenure, someone else can handle that rebuild. Falvey and Levine should be fired if that's their strategy.

If those two want to run a franchise like they're in Cleveland, fine, go somewhere else and do it.

They'd rather be the Rays/A's than anything. So I agree, let them go elsewhere.

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3 hours ago, TwinsDr2021 said:

They better hope it isn't 24 before they are good again. No fans 20, 16K a game in 21, and if they are terrible again and running bullpen games out there nightly, it will be even lower in 22, by 23 they will have to be giving away tickets. And if they can't figure out a way to get their games on streaming, well.....

All of this. Which is why if I were Pohlad I would be going all in on trying to make one of the 6? 8? play-off spots next year by signing Buxton and 3 starters instead of letting my GM dither and do nothing.

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5 hours ago, howeda7 said:

All of this. Which is why if I were Pohlad I would be going all in on trying to make one of the 6? 8? play-off spots next year by signing Buxton and 3 starters instead of letting my GM dither and do nothing.

This is not TR.  This FO might quit if Pohlad told them what to do.  Wait, that might not be a bad idea, new blood.

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9 hours ago, beckmt said:

This is not TR.  This FO might quit if Pohlad told them what to do.  Wait, that might not be a bad idea, new blood.

I generally loathe ownership influencing baseball decisions but I'm continually surprised at how bad this front office is at baseball-related PR so maybe some ownership influence wouldn't be the worst thing in the world.

There's just no effing reason to have this Buxton situation going sideways so publicly and that's a big PR mistake. And it continues all the way down to little stuff like Drew Maggi not getting into a baseball game, which was a very small PR mistake.

I'm increasingly convinced that this front office has no ability to read public perception of their actions on even the little stuff that impacts very little financially or baseball-wise but has a "feel-good" vibe that makes fans happy (again, Drew Maggi). It was such an unforced error with no downside that it still baffles me.

On the other hand, I've been surprisingly impressed by the Pohlad kids' ability to deftly navigate difficult situations like the George Floyd protests, the BLM movement, the Calvin Griffith statue, etc.

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The Twins did not get one single player onto the 2021 All MLB Team. Not even the Second team.  Is that really pathetic or what?  Who is held responsible for this?  I know it is probably not a big thing but no Twins were up for any of the big awards. Just Polanco was up for the 2021 All MLB Team.  How embarrassing that must be or do they really care?  

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