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Bye bye Buxton?


Emjay
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Keep 'em or throw 'em back   

42 members have voted

  1. 1. Based on Twins current outlook and woes with pitching and Buxton, would you keep your 80 game Season tix for 2022?



I'm quite disappointed in this FO and I'm 100% convinced Byron Buxton needs to be signed.  However, I came across this proposed 3-team trade on Baseball Trade Values by ColeMitch22.  It's "interesting."  I must admit, if Buxton is traded, I wouldn't be happy but I'd be intrigued by this.

Brewers get Buxton.  They acquire 14.6 trade value and give up 14.8

Rays get:  Larnach 18.9  Uribe  2.4  Zamora  6.0   They acquire 27.3 in value and give up 27.8

Twins get:  Tyler Glasnow  27.8  Adrian Houser 19.2  Jackie Bradley Jr. --12.8   We acquire 34.20 in value and give up 33.5.

Jackie Bradley Jr. is the stinker here, but his negative 12.8 value allows the Twins to set Glasnow and Houser at the top of their pitching staff.  Bradley can still play a very good CF.  He just can't hit.  In this scenario I do the tony&rodney shuffle and sign Starling Marte.  I just make my mind up to get him.  If Bradley hits  .156 by June 1st I cut my losses and release him and have Marte in CF.  But to get two pitchers of THAT caliber, I'd tolerate Bradley Jr.  (at least for a couple weeks).

If the inevitable HAS to happen I could accept a trade of this magnitude that puts TWO SP's like that in Minnesota.

Then, I pull off a trade I saw our very own Dr. Gast propose:  Twins deal Arraez 33.3  Sabato 3.0 and Cole Sands 3.3  (39.6) to the Oakland A's for Frankie Montas (39.6).  You want the Twins to PITCH ?!?!   Glasnow, Montas, Houser...sign Pineda and have Ryan & Ober as #5 & #6 in a 6-man rotation.  

At the end of the day, if Buxton has to go, THIS is the kind of plan I could live with.  

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18 hours ago, Mike Sixel said:

I won't be surprised if he's dealt. I will be disappointed.

But, as Brock points out, this is 100% what Tampa would do (doesn't mean we have to like it).

If the Twins can get one of the Yankees top SS prospects and one of their top pitching prospects, I would be surprised if they don't deal him, actually. If they take back Hicks' deal, they can likely get another prospect.

Then I'd see Donaldson given away to save money. Signing two bad starting pitchers. And losing 90+ games.

I will be disappointed too.  However, in terms of liking it, should we hate them following practices that have proven very effective?  Our kids hate some of the things we insist they do or not do.  Is this an indication that our kids might not understand what is best for them or are we the problem for following good parenting practices?  I have to admit, I will hate it but I won't fault them yet because I have no idea what he is demanding.

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I'd be disappointed for a little while if Buxton is traded, but I'm also going to be aware that it takes two parties to agree to a contract. There are very valid non-baseball and non-financial reasons why, as Latino and Black men in Minnesota, Berrios and Buxton could be uninterested in committing their families' formative years to Minnesota no matter how many digits are in their contract offers.

Neither Berrios not Buxton are making decisions in a vacuum.

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1 hour ago, TopGunn#22 said:

I'm quite disappointed in this FO and I'm 100% convinced Byron Buxton needs to be signed.  However, I came across this proposed 3-team trade on Baseball Trade Values by ColeMitch22.  It's "interesting."  I must admit, if Buxton is traded, I wouldn't be happy but I'd be intrigued by this.

Brewers get Buxton.  They acquire 14.6 trade value and give up 14.8

Rays get:  Larnach 18.9  Uribe  2.4  Zamora  6.0   They acquire 27.3 in value and give up 27.8

Twins get:  Tyler Glasnow  27.8  Adrian Houser 19.2  Jackie Bradley Jr. --12.8   We acquire 34.20 in value and give up 33.5.

Jackie Bradley Jr. is the stinker here, but his negative 12.8 value allows the Twins to set Glasnow and Houser at the top of their pitching staff.  Bradley can still play a very good CF.  He just can't hit.  In this scenario I do the tony&rodney shuffle and sign Starling Marte.  I just make my mind up to get him.  If Bradley hits  .156 by June 1st I cut my losses and release him and have Marte in CF.  But to get two pitchers of THAT caliber, I'd tolerate Bradley Jr.  (at least for a couple weeks).

If the inevitable HAS to happen I could accept a trade of this magnitude that puts TWO SP's like that in Minnesota.

Then, I pull off a trade I saw our very own Dr. Gast propose:  Twins deal Arraez 33.3  Sabato 3.0 and Cole Sands 3.3  (39.6) to the Oakland A's for Frankie Montas (39.6).  You want the Twins to PITCH ?!?!   Glasnow, Montas, Houser...sign Pineda and have Ryan & Ober as #5 & #6 in a 6-man rotation.  

At the end of the day, if Buxton has to go, THIS is the kind of plan I could live with.  

I like Glasnow, but trading a 28 year old Buxton for a 28 year old Glasnow , a 29 year old Houser, and a 32 year old Bradley.

Doesn't seem like the kind of trade that replenishes the pipeline. IMO if the trade Buxton there better be a possible superstar in the making (even if it doesn't work out.)

Trading for guys like Glasnow and Houser, again IMO should be for prospects.

I do like that Houser has 3 years of control, not a fan that Glasnow has only 2.

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1 hour ago, Major League Ready said:

I will be disappointed too.  However, in terms of liking it, should we hate them following practices that have proven very effective?  Our kids hate some of the things we insist they do or not do.  Is this an indication that our kids might not understand what is best for them or are we the problem for following good parenting practices?  I have to admit, I will hate it but I won't fault them yet because I have no idea what he is demanding.

Given only one team seems to be able to do this every year, it takes some serious confidence to feel like you can do it too. I have no idea what he's asking, but if they won't pass 100 million, then they either think he can't stay healthy, or they have much tighter constraints than everyone thinks. Because he'll certainly get a lot more than that if healthy. 

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56 minutes ago, TwinsDr2021 said:

Glasnow has only 2.

Really he has less than one year. Glasnow is out next year and will be rebounding from surgery in 2023. The idea of multiple trades to re-boot the pitching staff still seems plausible but Falvey may not have any plans to rebuild quickly. We are a confused fan base right now. 

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28 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

Given only one team seems to be able to do this every year, it takes some serious confidence to feel like you can do it too. I have no idea what he's asking, but if they won't pass 100 million, then they either think he can't stay healthy, or they have much tighter constraints than everyone thinks. Because he'll certainly get a lot more than that if healthy. 

Also, if the Twins naturally have a 50-60M per year payroll advantage on Tampa, that means the Twins should be able to afford two or three uncomfortable contracts and STILL operate the same way as they do.

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5 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

Given only one team seems to be able to do this every year, it takes some serious confidence to feel like you can do it too. I have no idea what he's asking, but if they won't pass 100 million, then they either think he can't stay healthy, or they have much tighter constraints than everyone thinks. Because he'll certainly get a lot more than that if healthy. 

There is not going to be a multitude of examples.  How often are lower revenue teams faced with these decisions.  It could be argued that these practices originate in Oakland Oakland.  They traded Harden for Donaldson and Mark Mulder for Dan Haren.  Got a few good years out of Haren and traded him and Connor Robertson for six players.  Then there is the trade of Samardzija for Bassitt and Semien.  This has been common in Oakland.

The Royals traded Grienke for Caine / Escobar.  The White sox traded Sale and Eaton.  Those trades have significantly impact their current team.  The Mariners traded Robinson Cano and Edwin Diaz for six players including Kelenec, and Anthony Swarzak. Those are off the top of my head.  I am sure we could come up with enough other examples to conclude Tampa is not the only team that has executed this strategy. 

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18 hours ago, MABB1959 said:

He doesn't want to play here.  Of course he will say he does, but I bet he would much rather play for a team that will be contending in his prime years.  And he will get that in FA.  After messing with his service time he will play through next year and become a top FA.  That way the Twins get nothing and kind of what they deserve.  He has a smart agent and the smarter teams will patiently wait until the end of next season unless the see him as a critical piece to go the WS.  Imagine him in pinstripes, Berrios looked good in the Toronto uniform and Eddie, Eddie, Eddie had fun in the ugly Atlanta uniform.  

Unless you truly believe the FO is incompetent enough to let that happen (Bill Smith levels of incompetent) that’s not going to happen

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1 hour ago, RonCoomersOPS said:

There are very valid non-baseball and non-financial reasons why, as Latino and Black men in Minnesota, Berrios and Buxton could be uninterested in committing their families' formative years to Minnesota no matter how many digits are in their contract offers.

This is the thought that stings. Really stings. Want this to be a place that feels like home to everyone who makes a home here. Might not be, and if so, we need to change. And if we can't, we really do need to think of ourselves as a AAA city, with maybe unpleasant but short stays for Latino and Black players as they look to make a career elsewhere.

Cruz's comments seemed to indicate a good and loving stay here. I hope that's what all of our guys experience.

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23 minutes ago, Major League Ready said:

There is not going to be a multitude of examples.  How often are lower revenue teams faced with these decisions.  It could be argued that these practices originate in Oakland Oakland.  They traded Harden for Donaldson and Mark Mulder for Dan Haren.  Got a few good years out of Haren and traded him and Connor Robertson for six players.  Then there is the trade of Samardzija for Bassitt and Semien.  This has been common in Oakland.

The Royals traded Grienke for Caine / Escobar.  The White sox traded Sale and Eaton.  Those trades have significantly impact their current team.  The Mariners traded Robinson Cano and Edwin Diaz for six players including Kelenec, and Anthony Swarzak. Those are off the top of my head.  I am sure we could come up with enough other examples to conclude Tampa is not the only team that has executed this strategy. 

To be honest I think most twins fans understand this, there are times the Twins are going to have to trade away players to reload, most of us understand we are not the Yanks, Red Sox, Dodgers, etc...

The frustration comes from when they are doing really well, they didn't make the in-season trades that the Royals, White Sox and yes the A's have.

And the Twins fans were told they didn't make those trades because they were focusing on sustained success.

 

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30 minutes ago, LastOnePicked said:

This is the thought that stings. Really stings. Want this to be a place that feels like home to everyone who makes a home here. Might not be, and if so, we need to change. And if we can't, we really do need to think of ourselves as a AAA city, with maybe unpleasant but short stays for Latino and Black players as they look to make a career elsewhere.

I totally agree.  It hasn't been that long that the Twins started to realize the talent of the Latino players.  For years we had a pretty light skinned team.  I feel like Escobar kind of broke the barrier a bit.  Him and other Latino's had to earn their playing time while others were/are sent trotting out even though they were playing poorly.  It has probably been less that 5 years since we have had this many Latino's being everyday players for the Twins.  

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48 minutes ago, cHawk said:

Unless you truly believe the FO is incompetent enough to let that happen (Bill Smith levels of incompetent) that’s not going to happen

Why didn't we see the Twins being in on some of the bigger names last week?  I am going to go with we are on the "no-trade" clause for most of the top rated/wanted players.  That is better than thinking the Pohlads are cheap and the FO have their hands tied. 

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2 hours ago, TwinsDr2021 said:

Doesn't seem like the kind of trade that replenishes the pipeline. IMO if the trade Buxton there better be a possible superstar in the making (even if it doesn't work out.)

Seems like we do not or are unable to bring a player to their actual talent and do not see it until they are on another team.  

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4 minutes ago, MABB1959 said:

I totally agree.  It hasn't been that long that the Twins started to realize the talent of the Latino players.  For years we had a pretty light skinned team.  I feel like Escobar kind of broke the barrier a bit.  Him and other Latino's had to earn their playing time while others were/are sent trotting out even though they were playing poorly.  It has probably been less that 5 years since we have had this many Latino's being everyday players for the Twins.  

The previous owner of the team explicitly said that he moved the team to Minnesota because of the skin tone of the typical fan. Agree that the team has made progress with Latino players, but I think we have a long way to go with Black players. And, as fans and Minnesotans in general, it feels like there's still a lot of work to do to create a positive experience for both Black and Latino (and Asian, too) players.

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2 hours ago, TwinsDr2021 said:

To be honest I think most twins fans understand this, there are times the Twins are going to have to trade away players to reload, most of us understand we are not the Yanks, Red Sox, Dodgers, etc...

The frustration comes from when they are doing really well, they didn't make the in-season trades that the Royals, White Sox and yes the A's have.

And the Twins fans were told they didn't make those trades because they were focusing on sustained success.

 

OK but these are two very different topics.  Mike suggested that only one team (the Rays) has been successful in these types of transactions.  I provided examples of why that's not true.  Instead of acknowledging these examples and that they have been good for the teams that made these trades, you have shifted to an entirely different complaint.  Am I missing something.  Were we not talking about an entirely different practice / strategy?

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If Buxton is on the way out, you might as well include Falvey and Levine.  Obviously, they respond to ownership's wishes, but if they are given the go ahead to sign buxton, and fail, they should be ushered out as well.   There was definitely a reason why Cleveland and Texas let these two FO men go.

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1 hour ago, Major League Ready said:

OK but these are two very different topics.  Mike suggested that only one team (the Rays) has been successful in these types of transactions.  I provided examples of why that's not true.  Instead of acknowledging these examples and that they have been good for the teams that made these trades, you have shifted to an entirely different complaint.  Am I missing something.  Were we not talking about an entirely different practice / strategy?

I said consistently good. You yourself said I KC isn't. Are the Mariners? I don't think so. 

One team is consistently good, year after year, doing this. The others go thru cycles, just like the Twins, though some have shorter success, or shine brighter. 

Unless I'm missing a team...

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52 minutes ago, Major League Ready said:

OK but these are two very different topics.  Mike suggested that only one team (the Rays) has been successful in these types of transactions.  I provided examples of why that's not true.  Instead of acknowledging these examples and that they have been good for the teams that made these trades, you have shifted to an entirely different complaint.  Am I missing something.  Were we not talking about an entirely different practice / strategy?

You are missing, that as Twins fans we can agree we have to trade away players at times to reload, but when things are going well or unexpected we also expect the Twin to do something to get them over the top (doesn't have to be a championship, has to be an attempt to win the championship).

In your examples, you left out that the A's, White Sox and Royals all did this, made in-season trades or signed players to supplement their core players brought along though the minor leagues.

You are only telling half the story of those teams.

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10 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

I said consistently good. You yourself said I KC isn't. Are the Mariners? I don't think so. 

One team is consistently good, year after year, doing this.

Has Tampa really been consistently good?

They basically have great the last 4 years, then not so good for 4 years, then good to really good for 6, and before that terrible.

One of the things that Tampa seems to do, is wheel and deal with their minor league players

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16 minutes ago, TwinsDr2021 said:

You are missing, that as Twins fans we can agree we have to trade away players at times to reload, but when things are going well or unexpected we also expect the Twin to do something to get them over the top (doesn't have to be a championship, has to be an attempt to win the championship).

In your examples, you left out that the A's, White Sox and Royals all did this, made in-season trades or signed players to supplement their core players brought along though the minor leagues.

You are only telling half the story of those teams.

I did not miss where you were going with this for a second.  I simply think it's a separate issue.  I responding to a post stating the fact the Rays would do this is not relevant because they are the ne team that has been able to pull off such trades.  I gave examples that contradict that position.  Now, it appears you are suggesting that their failure to make a different type of trade is somehow relevant to the specific type of trade I was debating with Mike.  Had they made the deadline trades you desired that also would have no validity in the relative merit of trading away players before losing them to free agency.

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On the Twins/Rays comparisons, since 2008 (which is when the Rays got good and doesn't count the strong 01-07 run the Twins were on), both teams have won their division 4x. Rays have had 8 winning seasons in that time, Twins have had 7. Obviously, the Rays have had much better post-season success (they've gotten in as a WC three times to the Twins one time) and I think you can give them a degree of difficulty for playing in the AL East, but, realistically, only a few small market teams have managed to have more than five straight winning seasons since baseball's payroll structure got out of hand. 

And that's the big thing - payroll. Even the smartest front offices haven't really been able to stop the cycle because they can't buy their way out of misses. The Yankees traded one of the best hitting prospects in years for Pineda, who didn't pitch that well for them. No matter, the Yankees could buy pitching so losing a top 3 prospect and not getting much in return didn't phase them. That would cripple us. That's why the Twins 01-10 run was so special but it's also so hard to replicate. Tampa's four years into one now. Good for them.

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10 minutes ago, TwinsDr2021 said:

Has Tampa really been consistently good?

They basically have great the last 4 years, then not so good for 4 years, then good to really good for 6, and before that terrible.

One of the things that Tampa seems to do, is wheel and deal with their minor league players

No.  But would you prefer their results or the Pirates.  KC had a couple good years and has been terrible for 20.  It's very unrealistic to believe a bottom revenue team will be consistently good.  Their recent success has been great and they are positioned to stay that way for several years.  Oakland actually has the best track record of small market teams.  

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16 minutes ago, Major League Ready said:

I did not miss where you were going with this for a second.  I simply think it's a separate issue.  I responding to a post stating the fact the Rays would do this is not relevant because they are the ne team that has been able to pull off such trades.  I gave examples that contradict that position.  Now, it appears you are suggesting that their failure to make a different type of trade is somehow relevant to the specific type of trade I was debating with Mike.  Had they made the deadline trades you desired that also would have no validity in the relative merit of trading away players before losing them to free agency.

I guess I was trying to say if they had made those in-season trades in the great years, it would be way easier to accept them trading Berrios and possibly Buxton away now. Would it suck, sure, but it would be understandable. But if this team won't sign its stars OR make trades when they are good, well why stick and have loyalty when they obvious don't care.

My point was you can't separate the two with the fans, Brook tried that in a thread about being Mediocre, and the comments trended towards how they did in the postseason and regular season.

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54 minutes ago, TwinsDr2021 said:

I guess I was trying to say if they had made those in-season trades in the great years, it would be way easier to accept them trading Berrios and possibly Buxton away now. Would it suck, sure, but it would be understandable. But if this team won't sign its stars OR make trades when they are good, well why stick and have loyalty when they obvious don't care.

My point was you can't separate the two with the fans, Brook tried that in a thread about being Mediocre, and the comments trended towards how they did in the postseason and regular season.

That's on the fans.  They could have made several deadline trades going for it or none.  It has no relevance in the relative merit of trading away Buxton / Berrios / Snell / Samardzija or any of the others.  

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49 minutes ago, TwinsDr2021 said:

The pirates won, 94,88,98, 78,75,82 games from 2013 though 2018, and won three playoff games in that time.

They attempted to 2018 with the archer trade, it back fired badly.

I did not ask if the Pirates have ever had any success.  Which teams result would you prefer and whose team would you like to have for the next 5 years.

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