Jump to content
Twins Daily
  • Create Account

So, the Yankees tried to acquire Simmons at the deadline


Original_JB
 Share

I agree with some of you.  Nothing here.  No details, no facts.  Nothing.  The same crew here eviscerating our Twins for not moving Simmons also lambast the org for their "being in on" X Player but never following through.  Total reporting Garbage.  Don't get sucked in.  Seth said it best:  Throw away sentence.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

His defense in front of inexperienced pitching was the reason he played the last two months. He is a far better glove at SS than anyone else on the roster and based on OOA he was among the best in the league.

I don’t think it is an obvious choice to take the salary relief and play Gordon or Polanco. If the top priority was developing pitchers then defense does matter. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, Original_JB said:

Can anyone give a good reason why they didn't unload him? God forbid this means they want to bring him back. Even then, that could have happened after the season was over. Just another straw for the camel I guess.

Unless they want to spend big bucks for a SS, assuming one wants to come here, there is no one near his fielding ability available; put any one on the Twins roster in that position and Twins will/would be a fielding laughing stock, for releasing Simmons

So much babble here moans about HIS bat while ignoring all the barely .200 rookies they are so in love with whilest  ignoring how much the infield depends on his glove which was show blatantly in the last game.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 hours ago, RpR said:

So much babble here moans about HIS bat while ignoring all the barely .200 rookies they are so in love with

Not to get sidetracked ... but there is a huge difference between a rookie batting barely .200 and a veteran batting .200. Rookies are adjusting to the best pitching they have seen so far in their careers. The hope with rookies is they take this and learn to adjust - whether they will or won't is yet to be seen; but a veteran batting at that level? That's as good as they get.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 hours ago, RpR said:

Unless they want to spend big bucks for a SS, assuming one wants to come here, there is no one near his fielding ability available; put any one on the Twins roster in that position and Twins will/would be a fielding laughing stock, for releasing Simmons

So much babble here moans about HIS bat while ignoring all the barely .200 rookies they are so in love with whilest  ignoring how much the infield depends on his glove which was show blatantly in the last game.

You continue to use batting average while it's just a part of overall offense. Yeah, other people hit around .200, like Kepler for example. 

Except Kepler slugged .413 while Simmons "slugged" a comically bad .274. I literally did a double take when I saw that number, it's that bad. I can't even recall the last time I saw someone slug that low. When I think of "mediocre no power slap hitter", the player that always pops into my head is Jamey Carroll and he managed to have a career slugging percentage of .338, or a whopping .064 higher than Simmons in 2021.

And that's why Kepler's overall offense (98 OPS+) was just kinda bad for a corner outfielder while Simmon's overall offense (57 OPS+) was hilariously bad. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 hours ago, RpR said:

Unless they want to spend big bucks for a SS, assuming one wants to come here, there is no one near his fielding ability available; put any one on the Twins roster in that position and Twins will/would be a fielding laughing stock, for releasing Simmons

So much babble here moans about HIS bat while ignoring all the barely .200 rookies they are so in love with whilest  ignoring how much the infield depends on his glove which was show blatantly in the last game.

 

Only problem with that is if you go and look at the actual data, looking at the top 30 SS's in innings played, outside of the top 2 and the last 1 in defensive runs saved, the difference between playing the 'best' and the 'worst' SS in MLB, is a difference of 1 run scored every 8 games. Also, since it is pretty universally agreed that they probably aren't bringing him back, you are  saying the Twins will look foolish regardless.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, ashbury said:

If a guy's going to be a singles hitter, which by now Simmons is, he needs to hit a metric boatload of them or he's not of value at the plate.  And defense, even at SS, simply isn't even half a ballplayer's game, in this day and age.

He's applying for citizenship. I'll give him a pass on a metric boatload of anything until that is settled.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I personally am okay with having him on the team despite his underwhelming offensive prowess. 

 

It is good to have young developing players in the presence of a standard of excellence they can aspire to.

 

Hopefully Mr. Gordon was paying attention, and i only wish Mr. Lewis had had some quality time with him too...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Admittedly batting average is an incomplete statistic, but just to compare--the batting average of the American League this season was .245. With that in mind Simmons' .223 would not be horrible, even with a .274 slugging percentage (hard to believe a number that low is even possible) for a good defensive shortstop if the rest of the team was good enough to compensate.

I'm not advocating for whether or not Simmons was a good defensive shortstop this season and I'm not advocating for whether or not he should have been dumped at the deadline. Just wanted to lend some perspective.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, ashbury said:

If a guy's going to be a singles hitter, which by now Simmons is, he needs to hit a metric boatload of them or he's not of value at the plate.  And defense, even at SS, simply isn't even half a ballplayer's game, in this day and age.

Hmm, pitchers are now entirely defense in the American League so if they give up four five home runs a game it means little.

To reduce the power of defense is silly at best.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

SO, DID THE tWINS WANT LUIS GIL, OR AARON HICKS IN RETURN, WHILE THE YANKEES OFFERED RYAN lAMARRE...WHO WOULD PLAY THE OUTFIELD AND ALSO COME OUT OF THE BULLPEN?

 

THEY ALSO WANTED ASTUDILLO AS A THROW-IN, TOO? RIGHT?!?

 

WOULD HAVE BEEN DREW MAGGI'S DAY IN THE SUN!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

26 minutes ago, Rosterman said:

SO, DID THE tWINS WANT LUIS GIL, OR AARON HICKS IN RETURN, WHILE THE YANKEES OFFERED RYAN lAMARRE...WHO WOULD PLAY THE OUTFIELD AND ALSO COME OUT OF THE BULLPEN?

 

THEY ALSO WANTED ASTUDILLO AS A THROW-IN, TOO? RIGHT?!?

 

WOULD HAVE BEEN DREW MAGGI'S DAY IN THE SUN!

TROLPO.....is that you?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The Yankees were eager to stay under the luxury tax threshold this year to potentially reset and they had precious little salary room to do so. Taking on Simmons' contract would probably have been a non-starter as a result.

That puts the Twins into a situation of saying, okay, so what are you offering besides clearing a 26 man roster spot we still have to pay? Evidently, the Yankees didn't propose anything the Twins' front office viewed as legitimate talent in exchange for eating several million dollars of Simmons salary while he played in Yankee Stadium instead of Target Field.

It's not hard to expect the Yankees to have kicked the tires on Simmons and offered nothing to the Twins as there may have been the perception the Twins would just DFA Simmons and release him for nothing after the trade deadline anyway.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, bean5302 said:

The Yankees were eager to stay under the luxury tax threshold this year to potentially reset and they had precious little salary room to do so. Taking on Simmons' contract would probably have been a non-starter as a result.

That puts the Twins into a situation of saying, okay, so what are you offering besides clearing a 26 man roster spot we still have to pay? Evidently, the Yankees didn't propose anything the Twins' front office viewed as legitimate talent in exchange for eating several million dollars of Simmons salary while he played in Yankee Stadium instead of Target Field.

It's not hard to expect the Yankees to have kicked the tires on Simmons and offered nothing to the Twins as there may have been the perception the Twins would just DFA Simmons and release him for nothing after the trade deadline anyway.

Simmons' contract was a sunk cost. Even if the move simply cleared a roster spot, it was worth it for the Twins. The only defense for continuing to play him was agent relations/future veteran signings. Well, problem solved. There were better uses for the ABs and defensive innings.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 minutes ago, KirbyDome89 said:

Simmons' contract was a sunk cost. Even if the move simply cleared a roster spot, it was worth it for the Twins. The only defense for continuing to play him was agent relations/future veteran signings. Well, problem solved. There were better uses for the ABs and defensive innings.

This simply isn't true, though. I've been as critical of Simmons as anyone on this board but even I'm willing to admit that despite his obvious flaws, he was the best defensive shortstop available to the Twins and it wasn't a close contest.

And when running out a revolving door of rookie pitchers, not having a disaster fielder at the most important defensive spot in the field is worth something.

I would have probably given away Simmons for nothing but also being asked to pay for the honor of giving him away is a bit much.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

This simply isn't true, though. I've been as critical of Simmons as anyone on this board but even I'm willing to admit that despite his obvious flaws, he was the best defensive shortstop available to the Twins and it wasn't a close contest.

And when running out a revolving door of rookie pitchers, not having a disaster fielder at the most important defensive spot in the field is worth something.

I would have probably given away Simmons for nothing but also being asked to pay for the honor of giving him away is a bit much.

I know they don't view Gordon as a long term SS option, but rather than send him down in August because there apparently wasn't enough room, that problem would've been solved simply by moving Simmons. Polanco was there to step in and play simply below average SS if Gordon was so awful the team couldn't have him out there. Again, Simmons was getting paid either way, who cares whether it's with NY or MN? The evaluation of Gax, Barnes, Ryan, Ober, ect doesn't change, for better or worse, whether it's Simmons or somebody else at short. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, KirbyDome89 said:

I know they don't view Gordon as a long term SS option, but rather than send him down in August because there apparently wasn't enough room, that problem would've been solved simply by moving Simmons. Polanco was there to step in and play simply below average SS if Gordon was so awful the team couldn't have him out there. Again, Simmons was getting paid either way, who cares whether it's with NY or MN? The evaluation of Gax, Barnes, Ryan, Ober, ect doesn't change, for better or worse, whether it's Simmons or somebody else at short. 

I'm sure the Twins cared quite a bit whether they or the Yankees paid the remainder of Simmons' contract. He signed for $10.5m in 2021, he wasn't a chump-change signing.

For right or wrong, the Twins don't want to play Gordon or Polanco at short on a daily basis. Given what we know of Gordon's defensive ability at the position and the fact Polanco was having a career year at second and his persistent ankle concerns, I understand their reluctance to both pay for and give away Simmons at the same time.

To me, the most baffling aspect of this is why they played Polanco at short at all and why they refused to play Gordon there at all for a couple of months. Getting Gordon into one game a week at short - increasing his PAs in the process - seemed prudent and a reasonable compromise against Simmons' defense and complete lack of offensive production. And I can't imagine that Gordon is a huge dropoff defensively behind Polanco at this point in their careers. Jorge is pretty terrible at short nowadays.

But that's a rather separate conversation from whether the Twins should have given Simmons away and paid him, just so they could run bad defensive options in front of a rookie pitching staff every night for two months.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The Twins would have gotten just as roasted had they given Simmons to the Yankees solely for salary relief too. It would have been the "Cheap Pohalds" bit instead of the "Front Office is Incompetent" bit.

It was a bad signing and a sunk cost by the trade deadline. There was no face-saving salvage option.

Every so often the organization and the fans get it in their heads that SS defense is so important, that a glove only option isn't such a bad idea. But it is, every time.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, nicksaviking said:

Every so often the organization and the fans get it in their heads that SS defense is so important, that a glove only option isn't such a bad idea. But it is, every time.

I think it's a bit unfair to call Simmons' a "glove only" option before 2021, though.

- His glove wasn't good, it was generational. The kind of glove that covers for bad pitching and surrounding fielders.

- His wRC+ over the previous five seasons were 90, 100, 106, 78, 96. He wasn't a no-hit guy and was actually pretty close to league average with the stick. There's a reason he had two 5+ fWAR seasons in that five year stretch. He was a very good overall player with average-ish offense and otherworldly defense.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Possible the COVID stuff with Simmons kept the Yankees from doing anything more than mentioning his name during a conversation? I could see them kicking around names to add D, and then after making a call saying, "wait a second, what if this schmuck gets some of our guys sick?" A COVID outbreak nearly torpedoed the Red Sox season.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, KirbyDome89 said:

Simmons' contract was a sunk cost. Even if the move simply cleared a roster spot, it was worth it for the Twins. The only defense for continuing to play him was agent relations/future veteran signings. Well, problem solved. There were better uses for the ABs and defensive innings.

I'm not a fan of the Twins keeping Simmons. I would have rather them play Gordon or Palacios at SS every day than Simmons, but they had a different opinion than me. Other fans on the site have used the explanation Simmons provided a boost to young pitchers with the perception he provided good defense or it's possible the Twins believed Simmons was just in a bad year and wanted to keep him in good graces to potentially sign him at a very low contract value next year.

I'm just pointing out the Yankees (and other teams) probably thought there was a good chance the Twins were going to DFA and release Simmons after he cleared waivers so there wasn't a good reason to trade prospects or eat any of Simmons' contract when he could be resigned for league minimum without any prospect capital lost. In fact, I think it was pretty surprising to most people Simmons wasn't DFA'd. 

At the end of the day, it played out the way it did. The Twins had their reasons and the Yankees had theirs.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 minutes ago, jmlease1 said:

Possible the COVID stuff with Simmons kept the Yankees from doing anything more than mentioning his name during a conversation? I could see them kicking around names to add D, and then after making a call saying, "wait a second, what if this schmuck gets some of our guys sick?" A COVID outbreak nearly torpedoed the Red Sox season.

 

The Yankees weren't going to offer really anything for Simmons, but they wouldn't have called the Twins just to purely waste  time.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, nicksaviking said:

The Twins would have gotten just as roasted had they given Simmons to the Yankees solely for salary relief too. It would have been the "Cheap Pohalds" bit instead of the "Front Office is Incompetent" bit.

It was a bad signing and a sunk cost by the trade deadline. There was no face-saving salvage option.

Every so often the organization and the fans get it in their heads that SS defense is so important, that a glove only option isn't such a bad idea. But it is, every time.

I don't think the reaction to dumping him would have been all that negative.  I tend to agree with their overall thinking in the signing as well.  But by the time the Yankees asked about him it was clear he wasn't what they thought they were getting and dumping him for dirty socks would've been fine with pretty much everybody.

It was a good process, unfortunate result.  But I'll also point out that they did play Polanco and Gordon there with some frequency even with Simmons on the roster.  There was no excuse for keeping him.  Gordon should've been playing there as Kirby pointed out.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

I think it's a bit unfair to call Simmons' a "glove only" option before 2021, though.

- His glove wasn't good, it was generational. The kind of glove that covers for bad pitching and surrounding fielders.

- His wRC+ over the previous five seasons were 90, 100, 106, 78, 96. He wasn't a no-hit guy and was actually pretty close to league average with the stick. There's a reason he had two 5+ fWAR seasons in that five year stretch. He was a very good overall player with average-ish offense and otherworldly defense.

Honestly, I just think that just shows the gulf between defensive metrics, and on-field relevance. The Braves and Angels both had no problem saying goodbye to him. If the bat goes below average, you start wearing out your welcome regardless of your position.. On the field, a below average bat and an elite glove still equals an average player at best since about the time Ozzie Smith retired.

Good defense is just nowhere near as important as a potent offense.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, nicksaviking said:

Honestly, I just think that just shows the gulf between defensive metrics, and on-field relevance. The Braves and Angels both had no problem saying goodbye to him. If the bat goes below average, you start wearing out your welcome regardless of your position.. On the field, a below average bat and an elite glove still equals an average player at best since about the time Ozzie Smith retired.

Good defense is just nowhere near as important as a potent offense.

That isn't how things played out, though. He was a bad hitter with the Braves (and only played there for a few years before joining the Angels via trade) and the Angels paid him about $50m to play for them. Obviously, they felt he brought value to the team and they were right, as he accumulated 20 rWAR in an Angels uniform.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
 Share

The Twins Daily Caretaker Fund
The Twins Daily Caretaker Fund

You all care about this site. The next step is caring for it. We’re asking you to caretake this site so it can remain the premiere Twins community on the internet.

×
×
  • Create New...