Jump to content
Twins Daily
  • Create Account

And the season comes to an end.


cHawk
 Share

Just now, LastOnePicked said:

No one can predict anything in baseball, I think everyone agrees and understands that. The issue is who is better at educated guessing. For example, whose instincts and research pushed hard for signing Semien, and whose instincts and research led to signing Simmons? Which FO saw more promise in Ray and Rodon, and which chose Happ and Shoemaker instead? 

I never expect a FO to accurately predict every outcome. What worries me is when the poor guesses vastly outweigh the good guesses. It's a signal that their instincts or research isn't very good, or their luck is terrible. Either way - if that's the case here - I don't want them making decisions for my favorite team.

But I'm beating a dead horse. I'll say it one last time here: I'd fire this FO immediately and start a fresh offseason for the organization. My own personal guess is that this would get the team a lot closer to contention in the near future, and would stop the talent loss. 

So, the years before this one just didn't happen? I just don't get this thought at all. 

They have a great minor league system. Much, much better than when they came. They have Ober and Ryan, neither of whom is Berrios, but the two of them are better than anyone not named Berrios from the years before they came. My thought is they thought Shoemaker was a placeholder for a AA/AAA arm. That arm turned out to be Ober, but they didn't want to start with a rookie in April. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, terrydactyls said:

And who were the three big spenders last off season - the darlings of the hot stove league?  Philadelphia, Toronto, and San Diego.  How many made the playoffs?  None!  Money apparently doesn't buy happiness or a division winning team.  Make smart moves, not expensive moves.

The two aren't mutually exclusive. Who is arguing that they shouldn't make smart moves? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A lost season is all about assessing for the future.  Bailey Ober and Joe Ryan appear to be capable of manning the back end of the rotation.  A Pineda reunion would fill another rotation spot fairly cheaply, but his injury history is a concern.  Griffin Jax, based on his numbers, may have a future as a swingman/reliever.  I don't ever want to see "Charlie Barnes" start a game again.  My fear is Falvine thinks one of Gant/Dobber can fill a rotation spot.  They need at least two starters...I'm guessing one by trade and one as a FA.

I hate that we had to watch Simmons play SS all year.  With all due respect to him and his career as a great defensive SS, what purpose did it serve?  I would've preferred to see Gordon there more often...just to see if SS can be a position he could man as a utility guy.  Every single AB Simmons got the last 6 weeks should have gone to a younger player who may at least help this organization down the road.

Jorge Alcala seems to have turned a corner.  Thielbar is fine i guess.  Duffey and Rogers will be back.  I see absolutely no reason to not bring back Juan Minaya. Guys like Garza and Gant look like they at least should get a shot in ST to fill a bullpen spot.  

My biggest gripe...and it's not close, is that Jose Miranda got no playing time.  Zero.  Not a single at bat or inning.  We literally have no idea if he can handle MLB pitching.  And he literally has no idea what to work on in the offseason.  Just dumb.  Over the last 6 weeks he could have easily rotated in at 3B while JD DH'd or took a day off.  If Simmons had been DFA'd, Polanco could have played 50% of games at SS and Arraez to 2B.  He wouldn't have had to play a 3B once for me....should have been Miranda.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, Vanimal46 said:

Pre-season, 90 wins was a common win total not just for fans, but publications around the league. It’s amazing that the Twins only provided one week of hope for making the playoffs. They started 5-2, overcoming some shaky play, then the wheels flew off. This game against the A’s sticks out as the most frustrating game in the season:

Twins @ A’s April 21, 2021
 

You knew things weren’t going to go our way after blowing 5 leads in that game. Whether we want to admit it or not, they were out of it by May 1, which made this an extremely long season. 

Wonderful Twins fielding, that was as much of a curse as the bullpen.

In the last game Jeffers had make sure no one forgot how lousy it was, while Simmons did show in the last game how good it could be, with the right people on the field.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Not going to blow smoke, but I'm pleased the team didn't throw in the towel and give up. I'm pleased I saw the initial development of several young players that should only get better with their ML experience.

I am bummed a handful of guys like Kirilloff and Larnach weren't able to finish the season healthy and strong.

I am, of course, very bummed about how disappointing this season turned out.

I am excited for the off-season as I think it will be interesting and maybe even exciting with FA and trades.

I am just really bummed the season is over, no matter how disappointing it was. Having baseball just makes the world a better place. I can't wait until ST!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

20 minutes ago, DocBauer said:

I am just really bummed the season is over, no matter how disappointing it was. Having baseball just makes the world a better place. I can't wait until ST!

Each year has two seasons: baseball season and waiting for baseball season.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

36 minutes ago, Nine of twelve said:

Each year has two seasons: baseball season and waiting for baseball season.

Totally off the subject, but just for fun here in Nebraska we have 2 different ways to define the seasons:

1] a: winter conditioning, b: spring ball 😄 summer conditioning mixed with recruiting, and d: football season.

2] a: winter, b: road construction season

Link to comment
Share on other sites

April and May were putrid, but June and July were pretty sad too. There were times where one would just go WTF watching some lifeless displays of mediocre baseball. I mentioned earlier that August and September seemed much more competitive. In sum, the Twins have major work to do this offseason. Tweaking the roster with two or three little changes won't work. The roster needs definition and focus, both defensively and offensively. Perhaps we can get Ober and Ryan can fill in the back end of the rotation, but that leaves three open slots to fill via trades and free agency. Perhaps two or three young relievers will fill bullpen roles successfully, but the Twins need at least one strong addition among their relief squad. Perhaps Miranda, Martin, Celestino, and/or Lewis successfully make the jump to the big team next season, but there better be another idea or two to fill holes other than rookies. Falvey has stated that the Twins are not rebuilding but plan on a return to fighting for a division title. In that event some free agents will need to be signed and the Twins may need to overpay to push teams into a trade. The CBA looms but I'm wondering if it might be a good idea to make a big push from now to December. Three trades and three free agent signings could reinvigorate the roster and fit beneath a $150 million budget. I'm not too enamored of waiting until late February and March for waiver wire additions and other surprise signings, but will admit that there are times that the waiting strategy can work as well. It just feels like the 2021 season left a bad taste that needs to be cleansed sooner rather than later.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

19 hours ago, Mike Sixel said:

So, the years before this one just didn't happen? I just don't get this thought at all. 

They have a great minor league system. Much, much better than when they came. They have Ober and Ryan, neither of whom is Berrios, but the two of them are better than anyone not named Berrios from the years before they came. My thought is they thought Shoemaker was a placeholder for a AA/AAA arm. That arm turned out to be Ober, but they didn't want to start with a rookie in April. 

I look at this more as damning with faint praise. The only reason they have as good as a system (and I think it's quite debatable whether it's better than the one they inherited) is because this years team sucked so badly they were able to add Martin, Woods and Ryan to their top 10. They were supposed to compete and have a system that would augment and bolster a winning club. They completely failed to do that. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

47 minutes ago, gunnarthor said:

I look at this more as damning with faint praise. The only reason they have as good as a system (and I think it's quite debatable whether it's better than the one they inherited) is because this years team sucked so badly they were able to add Martin, Woods and Ryan to their top 10. They were supposed to compete and have a system that would augment and bolster a winning club. They completely failed to do that. 

They had a well ranked system before this year. Jeffers and Larnach were still minor league players coming into the year. OF course they failed at the MLB level, but not every team added the kinds of guys they added. It isn't faint praise. They did a great job adjusting to the circumstances. Great job.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

They had a well ranked system before this year. Jeffers and Larnach were still minor league players coming into the year. OF course they failed at the MLB level, but not every team added the kinds of guys they added. It isn't faint praise. They did a great job adjusting to the circumstances. Great job.

I did like the Jeffers/Larich draft and think both will be solid MLers. Good on them on taking a chance on Jeffers in the second round.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

23 hours ago, Mike Sixel said:

They have a great minor league system.

But we don't. We have a very average minor league system. I like the guys we have in the wings, but we are exactly a middle-of-the-pack farm system. And three out of our four rivals in the AL Central (KC, Detroit and Cleveland) are ranked higher than us. And again - this is WITH the trade acquisitions made at the deadline.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, LastOnePicked said:

But we don't. We have a very average minor league system. I like the guys we have in the wings, but we are exactly a middle-of-the-pack farm system. And three out of our four rivals in the AL Central (KC, Detroit and Cleveland) are ranked higher than us. And again - this is WITH the trade acquisitions made at the deadline.

Go look at fangraphs system rankings. Or anyone else's. They have a very good system. 

Wouldn't you expect awful teams to have great prospects? 

https://www.fangraphs.com/prospects/the-board/2021-in-season-prospect-list/farm-ranking?sort=-1,1&type=100&filter=&pos=&team=

Link to comment
Share on other sites

19 hours ago, HerbieFan said:

My biggest gripe...and it's not close, is that Jose Miranda got no playing time.  Zero.  Not a single at bat or inning.  We literally have no idea if he can handle MLB pitching.  And he literally has no idea what to work on in the offseason.  Just dumb.  Over the last 6 weeks he could have easily rotated in at 3B while JD DH'd or took a day off.  If Simmons had been DFA'd, Polanco could have played 50% of games at SS and Arraez to 2B.  He wouldn't have had to play a 3B once for me....should have been Miranda.

I mostly agree, but Miranda is blocked by Donaldson. I don't even think Miranda will break camp with the team in spring if Donaldson is healthy. Understandably, they don't want to alienate the only big FA they've signed. It's a tough situation that only a Donaldson trade or prolonged injury will resolve. And it's very unfair to Miranda, who busted his ass in 2021 and absolutely earned a promotion to the show.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

Wouldn't you expect awful teams to have great prospects? 

First, just so you know, Mike. I always like your posts and thoughts. I'm not fighting you here. But Cleveland is an awful team? The Rays are awful? They've had sustained success and still have far better farm systems and prospects. Some teams play well year after year, develop well and trade well as needed. I'm hoping the Twins can get there, too.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, LastOnePicked said:

But we don't. We have a very average minor league system. I like the guys we have in the wings, but we are exactly a middle-of-the-pack farm system. And three out of our four rivals in the AL Central (KC, Detroit and Cleveland) are ranked higher than us. And again - this is WITH the trade acquisitions made at the deadline.

They also graduated Ober, Ryan (not really), Jeffers and Larnach this year. And Alcala. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, LastOnePicked said:

First, just so you know, Mike. I always like your posts and thoughts. I'm not fighting you here. But Cleveland is an awful team? The Rays are awful? They've had sustained success and still have far better farm systems and prospects. Some teams play well year after year, develop well and trade well as needed. I'm hoping the Twins can get there, too.

You didn't mention the Rays. The Rays are a magical org that no one else can emulate. If that's your standard, you will be disappointed. Unless you want them to trade Buxton (which TB would). 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

43 minutes ago, LastOnePicked said:

I mostly agree, but Miranda is blocked by Donaldson. I don't even think Miranda will break camp with the team in spring if Donaldson is healthy. Understandably, they don't want to alienate the only big FA they've signed. It's a tough situation that only a Donaldson trade or prolonged injury will resolve. And it's very unfair to Miranda, who busted his ass in 2021 and absolutely earned a promotion to the show.

Miranda really isn't blocked by Donaldson, though. If he's blocked by anyone it's Astudillo and/or Arraez. Most prospects need time to adjust to the majors, no matter how good they were in the minors. The time to have gotten Miranda playing time this past year was when Donaldson needed a break or was injured. Who got that time? That's who blocked him. Then we could have seen how well he would be ... or not. And, he wasn't on the 40-man ... he was not going to be added when there wasn't absolute need. This idea that he would come up and immediately replace Donaldson's production and abilities, or come close, just because he had a tremendous year at AAA ... well ... that's just fantasy. If he breaks with the team next year out of ST it will be because we traded Arraez and re-assigned Astudillo to AAA. If he shows he can truly be a full-time replacement for Donaldson at 3rd, then you look to trade Donaldson mid-season or next year off-season. But I don't see that happening immediately; and if it does at all, it will be in 2023. Just my opinion.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Out of a 162 game season all they needed was 21 more wins to get the Central. This team had the ability to win that many more games but did not because they didn't play like winners (see Tampa, St. Louis) but rather just showed up and played, looked at the scoreboard, went home or to the hotel. Different manager with the same squad would have won those 21 games. Baseball is not an analytics project. It is a hard nosed, refuse to lose game. Please don't bring up 2019 and 2020. The Yankees play off results say it all about those seasons. All Twins should be required to watch the Red Sox - Yankees tonight and see how the Sox handle the situation. Not like the proverbial deer in the headlights.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 10/4/2021 at 1:57 PM, Mike Sixel said:

The Giants won, partially, because they played matchups better than anyone....in other words, not consistent lineups.

The Twins lost mostly because rather than playing matchups there were huge chunks of the season where it seemed like they were calling up whoever could slot onto the 40 man roster and fill an at bat.

There was a low point where (and no slight to the player himself) where the only option they had at center field was calling up Celestino from AA.  While it was great to see some growth from him (and Gordon) it was pretty obvious that the fit was far from comfortable in the beginning.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, LastOnePicked said:

I mostly agree, but Miranda is blocked by Donaldson. I don't even think Miranda will break camp with the team in spring if Donaldson is healthy. Understandably, they don't want to alienate the only big FA they've signed. It's a tough situation that only a Donaldson trade or prolonged injury will resolve. And it's very unfair to Miranda, who busted his ass in 2021 and absolutely earned a promotion to the show.

If there are plate appearances for Astudillo, there are certainly open plate appearances for Miranda.

The decision there might be one of the 'when and how much' Miranda could be called up to the Twins - while he naturally slots at 3B (for now) he might have a chance to do some stints in the MLB on those weeks if there are opportunities for Donaldson to rotate to DH like they did in the back half of this year. It might depend on how much they want him to be hitting / playing every day.

This (of course) assumes that the other blockers (i.e. Astudillo) have other options available.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 10/3/2021 at 8:39 PM, gunnarthor said:

I'm quite worried that the idea that "we weren't that bad after mid-May" wins out and we deceive ourselves on how bad this team was. 8th worst record in all baseball, 3rd worse in AL. They need to somehow figure out how to get a pitching staff that can cover 1500 or so innings and they have basically nothing to rely on right now. Essentially, ownership has to step up and pay big in free agency. If not, the Twins should just blow it all up, trade everyone with any value, and look forward to 2024.

If the "We" you reference is the fans; fat chance. I doubt there's a member on this site that doesn't think the team needs SIGNIFICANT upgrades. Half the people here are calling for a full-on rebuild. I'm also quite confident the non-die-hard fans that don't frequent a Twins message board will also demonstrate their lack of optimism by also not frequenting Target Field. Attendance is going to be pitiful next spring.

If the "We" you are referencing is the Twins organization itself, the only optimism there about the current roster would be a façade, and no one will buy it. There's not a person outside of the Ober and Ryan households who thinks the club has anything close to a usable rotation at this time.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Squirrel said:

Miranda really isn't blocked by Donaldson, though. If he's blocked by anyone it's Astudillo and/or Arraez. 

I agree that this is true in 2021, but if Miranda continues to impress in St. Paul in April and May it's time to get him in the major league lineup consistently. And if that's the case I think almost everyone will agree that he's the third baseman of the foreseeable future. That will be the time to shop Donaldson, and if he's healthy and playing well I think a trade would be a win all around--for the Twins, for the team receiving Donaldson, and for all the players involved. That's what I hope for.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, Nine of twelve said:

I agree that this is true in 2021, but if Miranda continues to impress in St. Paul in April and May it's time to get him in the major league lineup consistently. And if that's the case I think almost everyone will agree that he's the third baseman of the foreseeable future. That will be the time to shop Donaldson, and if he's healthy and playing well I think a trade would be a win all around--for the Twins, for the team receiving Donaldson, and for all the players involved. That's what I hope for.

Yes and no. He needs to impress at the major league level before he would be considered ready. And to do that, he needs to slot into the spot that Arraez had this year. It's not about continuing to rake in St. Paul, it's about what he will do on the Twins. And the only way to know that is to give him playing time and at bats on the Twins. I think you do that by making room for him by trading Arraez. And then when he proves ready to take over 100%, THEN and only then do you shop Donaldson. As I said, that doesn't happen, at the earliest, mid-season 2022, if all goes the best it could. Otherwise it's off-season 2022 and he's in place for 2023.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

42 minutes ago, Squirrel said:

Yes and no. He needs to impress at the major league level before he would be considered ready. And to do that, he needs to slot into the spot that Arraez had this year. It's not about continuing to rake in St. Paul, it's about what he will do on the Twins. And the only way to know that is to give him playing time and at bats on the Twins. I think you do that by making room for him by trading Arraez. And then when he proves ready to take over 100%, THEN and only then do you shop Donaldson. As I said, that doesn't happen, at the earliest, mid-season 2022, if all goes the best it could. Otherwise it's off-season 2022 and he's in place for 2023.

I would absolutely trade Donaldson before I trade Arraez. Arraez is a future Rod Carew Award winner. He can be a core player for us, at DH if we have good fielders in the rest of the lineup, for many years. But in any case I hope Miranda forces that decision.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A couple of views: Miranda will get his at bats if he is ready. Spring Training and April will be important for him, fair or not. Arraez is a great hitter but he does not replicate Rod Carew in any way or fashion, not in the smallest of visions. The Twins have some tough calls to make this offseason if they hope to reach .500 ball or better next year. Arraez and Polanco both play 2B. Is there a team out there that places a high value on either? This and other conversations need to take place to make attempts at finding the best mix of talent which will help the Twins in 2022. Arraez is a trade chip as are all other players. We can only hope that Falvey contacts those teams which return the most optimum value in return for our players. Pohlad and Falvey have stated the Twins will make the changes needed to return the Twins to relevance - we shall see.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 10/5/2021 at 8:37 PM, tony&rodney said:

A couple of views: Miranda will get his at bats if he is ready. Spring Training and April will be important for him, fair or not. Arraez is a great hitter but he does not replicate Rod Carew in any way or fashion, not in the smallest of visions.

BINGO!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just think if they had started 26-9 instead of the other way. They likely would have been better than 500 the rest of the way. Start faster boys! and that starts with a spring training that works the regulars a bit harder. How many at bats did Sano get in ST? not enough for a guy who starts slow every year. Same with pitching staff. Get the starters more work in ST and get their pitch counts up quicker. Sure you risk injury, but what's the difference if they are always ineffective at the beginning of the year? How many blown saves early because these guys didn't get enough work? ST is for the regulars to get ready for the season, not to give work to minor leaguers who won't go north! I've been saying this for years. Pull heads out of butts please.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
 Share

Featured Video

×
×
  • Create New...