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OPINION: The ‘Fire Falvine’ talk should stop (for now)


cHawk
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What exactly did this list say?

Rick Aguilera
Scott Erickson
Kevin Tapani
Greg Gagne
Jim Kaat
Dan Gladden

Our resident source of this list bats 1.000 on misrepresenting who he speaks with so I'd like some information on what they said and how it all plays to the Twins being a terrible dumpster fire of a culture.  Our resident source is also now on his second thread with his head in the sand about Viola so I'd really like to see the clear condemnation these players had for the current organization and a detailing of their extensive work in the clubhouse that would entail first hand knowledge of what is going wrong.

Shoemaker is relevant because his gripes come from months of direct work with this team.  They may not be fully fair, but at least they come with the requisite experience to gripe.  The rest of these guys sitting at luncheons for a celebration for a week or two?  This can't seriously be an argument.

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3 hours ago, chpettit19 said:

Shoemaker is the only player I've seen complain about anything (totally possible I missed someone else), but his complaint was about the coaching tips he received.

If I interpreted Shoemaker's comments correctly, he felt that the pitching coaches were expecting pitchers to pitch to a certain type of plan.  I would have interpreted that generously as "they didn't let us pitch as individuals", but in Shoemaker's case there are also some obvious ways his game needs to change.

I've also never read / heard anyone downgrading the clubhouse atmosphere as being terrible.  Maybe Hrbek would complain if the trainers felt that an ice cream sandwich dunked in a beer wasn't a proper training diet for an athlete.

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6 hours ago, Linus said:

Hmmm….it says old man.  I guess I don’t get it. 

I didn't see anyone clarify this for you. It's a Simpsons reference.  It's about a specific "old man" in that episode, but as a cultural reference really isn't so much about age as about raving.

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13 hours ago, Seth Stohs said:

Any "Fire Falvine" talk was silly all along. No reason to even consider that at this time. As others have mentioned, the pitching was good the last two years. This year, they've had all kinds of issues. 

As for the pipeline, we are starting to see it. Ober has become someone who as a rookie has impressed. Jax has put himself into consideration. That's just kind of the starting point of what is coming. Remember, Civale and Plesac struggled some early in their first call ups too. I still contend that Dobnak is a huge success of the pitching pipeline, taking a non-drafted guy and not only getting him to the big leagues, but he had a lot of success too for a little while, and this year's just been a weird year. 

Also, there was a completely missed season that meant little development last year. And yet, the coaches and coordinators remained in contact with the players and tried to keep them on a program. But that's also altered innings loads this year, and without question, it's been a cause for several injuries too. That has to be factored in. 

Jax and Ober are Plesac and Civale? Dobnak, who was demoted in a 60 game season last year and has been nothing short of awful this entire year is a huge success of the pitching pipeline? The time missed has been a cause for injuries without question? What?

Can't we at least be honest about the current state of things? There's looking at things as glass half full and then there's blurring reality...

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On 9/12/2021 at 11:01 AM, Brock Beauchamp said:

Out of curiosity, how would you (or any others reading this) feel after 2022 if the Twins go 82-80 on the season?

Depends upon their record against the Yankees. :)

That's kind of a joke. Though, more broadly, what kind of development do we see in our pitchers? What do they do with Buxton? How tough do they play against contenders? What FA signings do they make? How do they manage the 40-man roster? That will have a lot more impact on my opinion than any particular record. I expect absolutely nothing next year - you don't lose an entire starting rotation (and your best hitter) and come back the next year a contender. Or probably even a 82-80 team.

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10 minutes ago, KirbyDome89 said:

Jax and Ober are Plesac and Civale? Dobnak, who was demoted in a 60 game season last year and has been nothing short of awful this entire year is a huge success of the pitching pipeline? The time missed has been a cause for injuries without question? What?

Can't we at least be honest about the current state of things? There's looking at things as glass half full and then there's blurring reality...

I didn't say that Jax and Ober are Plesac and Civale. I said (or tried to say) that Plesac and Civale weren't Plesac and Civale from Day 1 and took their lumps. Mike Clevenger wasn't good right away. Carlos Carrasco took years to become good. Adam Plutko didn't become good. Jax could become Plutko, but I'm certainly not smart enough to know that. 

And I'm not going to make any strong calls on Dobnak. I'm certainly not going to give up on him because of the good that we did see in 2019 and the first 2/3 of 2020, despite struggling the final 1/3 of 2020 and a weird, no-real-role 2021 that's been completely derailed by his finger injury. 

Maybe all three will be Plutko, and most likely none will become Bieber, but if one can become Civale, that's a win. 

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3 minutes ago, Seth Stohs said:

I didn't say that Jax and Ober are Plesac and Civale. I said (or tried to say) that Plesac and Civale weren't Plesac and Civale from Day 1 and took their lumps. Mike Clevenger wasn't good right away. Carlos Carrasco took years to become good. Adam Plutko didn't become good. Jax could become Plutko, but I'm certainly not smart enough to know that. 

And I'm not going to make any strong calls on Dobnak. I'm certainly not going to give up on him because of the good that we did see in 2019 and the first 2/3 of 2020, despite struggling the final 1/3 of 2020 and a weird, no-real-role 2021 that's been completely derailed by his finger injury. 

Maybe all three will be Plutko, and most likely none will become Bieber, but if one can become Civale, that's a win. 

Ok, but that's walking it back a bit. 

Not giving up on a guy and calling him a huge success are vastly different. I'm not advocating for the Twins to cut him right now either, but we certainly see his first 50ish innings vs his last 50ish+ innings differently, including usage. 

Agreed, if one becomes even serviceable it's a win; I'm just not nearly as willing to entertain the comparisons put forward right now.

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23 hours ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

I don't know why that's terribly interesting. We all should listen to those with first-hand information over old men who are 1,500 miles away, yelling at clouds on Twitter.

Yikes. Ageism. Reducing Viola to just an old man, eh? With what I have learned about your defense of prejudices and causes, and a word's meaning in and out of context, perhaps, and being sensitive to it's possible effect on others, I didn't see that coming. There might be some wisdom that comes with the collection of knowledge over time. And sometimes, a third party that is not as invested can offer a bit of clarity for those that might be blinded by proximity and personal biases. 

As for the idea that things must be done the way they are in 2021? Maybe. But all the transitions and improvements come from teams doing something not like all the others, and it then becomes the next thing. Sometimes the new thing is repealed and the older thing resurfaces. My bet is that "small ball" will show a resurgence in the near future. Anyway, I have no idea or opinion on the clubhouse stink. Losing breeds its own problems, and winning ignores any problems. This team is losing and losing in horrible and painful ways. I suspect it is not the finest clubhouse culture right now, but that is just a guess.

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On 9/12/2021 at 9:07 PM, Rosterman said:

In 2016 they inherited a Manager, a farm system, and a draft class. They kept (and still have ) many top executives from the "Twins Family" still in their ranks, but it has only been the past three seasons (counting this and 2020), that they managed to re-format the farm system, and organization, in their dream.

The class of 2014 was when the Twins drafted a bunch of pitchers who never panned out. Gordon remains, but names like Burdi, Clay, Reed, Curtiss, Hildenberger have left the Twins and are still looking for that MLB paycheck. Also names like Taylor Hearn, Sam Hillaird, Dalton Gillespie and Mike Baumann are playing in other organizations. Most everyone else is gone or never made it.

Players from 2015 either have made the Twins, or are soon to be gone. We have Moran, Stashak on the team from that year. They traded away Blankenhorn, Vasquez and Wade. Wiel was released. Lujan and Cabbage are soon to be free agents. Names like Tyler Jay, Kyle Cody, Colton Eastman, Blake Cederlind, Dalton Sawyer, Johnathan Engerman, Tristan Pompey are still in major league ball.

 

The 2016 draft doesn't have much left in Twins land. Kirilloff, Rortvedt, Jax are with the big club. Balazovic is still in the wings. Baddoo and Wells are playing elsewhere with modest success, as are names like Gregg Deichmann, Sean Poppen and Tom Hackimer bidding time elsewhere. The Twins still have to make decisions on Ryan Mason and Caleb Hamilton. that is it for guys from that draft still in baseball.

 

Now the new administration got to draft. We are in Rule 5 territory with guys drafted in 2017. Ober, Rooker and Barnes have made it to the majors. Royce Lewis should've, but WILL be protected. Faucher was traded away and Rickey Ramirez was stolen in the Milb Rule 5. Names like Johnny DeLuca, Patrick Bailey, John McMinn, Max Meyer, Luke Miller, Griffin Roberts, Joe Record, Gabriel Rodriguez, Chandler Taylor, Cade Smith are in different organizations. The still remaining prospects are Enlow, Leach, Bechtold, Molina, Contreras, Gore - all Rule 5 eligible. Shows you how few players of the 40+ drafted do actually stay in a system for 3+ years.

 

2018 gave us Jeffers and Larnach. Both are still a bit raw, and we will see what 2022 brings us. But there are still 17 prospects in the system, including names like Winder, Sands, Williams, Gross, Funderburk, Schulfer, Snyder, Pinketon, Neff and Ritter. Erik Cha and Ryan Holgate are playing elsewhere. Winder is the one that needs protection.

 

2019 has 21 prospects still in the system as well as the FOUR members of the Class of 2020, which was a lost year for many lower level prospects. Cavaco many of us have voiced as being a bust, Canterino, Gipson-Long, Holland, Prato, Legumina, Mooney, Julien, Varland have given us some notice.

 

Right now, the Twins are sitting with some 120 prospects that they have signed, traded for, working on developing in their DSL program. Probably going to see close to 12-18 cut shortly, but they did sign 12 of their 21 class of 2021 whoa re all in play in Ft. Myers. Can the Twins also trade from minor league depth? Yes. 

So, yes...let's wait and see what comes from the two guys the Twins hired AT THE END OF 2016 who inherited whatever the Twins were fielding, and starting in 2018 was able to start their remake/remold of the team, only to have the minors shattered in 2020. And, remember, we are also working with revenue losses in 2020, and probably 2021. The Twins absorbed a lot in 2020 by paying many minor league folks a full salary, as well as keeping most of the operations staff under contract. Compared to over all budget, it was cheap...but still had to keep Ft. Myers going.

This year has been tough. Remember, they signed a bunch of guys like Happ and Shoemaker and Simmons and Colome as placesetters, hoping folks like Duran, Balazovic would be pitching and Lewis would be in the field by now. They expected to have Kirilloff in the line up, but more the second half than the first, which is why they had quite a few minor league free agent corner outfielders in the mix, as well as Cave who was out for a significant amount of time. And do wish that Garver would've kept Jeffers, perhaps, in the minors for more of the season. When they signed Donaldson, Miranda didn't look like he did this year (and can't quite understand why they aren't letting Miranda get at least 20 games of MLV ball under his belt going into spring training). I'm sure we also expected quite a bit more from Dobnak, Thorpe and Smeltzer.

 

It's hard to think the Twins have had only five general managers in their history. One being Griffith doing everything to keep from hiring others, Fox as the wedge between Griffith/Pohlad, MacPhail was the first true modern GM, from outside, and was wooed away because he was good. Terry Ryan took the job, but really didn't see it as his career. Bill Smith was a good baseball man, but NOT a good baseball man. And with Levine and Falvey the Twins actually went outside the organization HUGE BIG TIME to bring in bright, YOUNG, innovative administration.

 

Anyone else new coming in would just also tear things apart. Or we just promote the same tired bodies from within and always a series away from going deep in the playoffs, if we can beat most everyone in the division. I'm still hoping that Levine and Falvey will take us beyond being competitive IN THE DIVISION to being the team to beat in baseball. They supposedly had a five year plan for 2018-2022. Because of 2020, I'm willing to give them until 2023. 

 

Thanks for this post. Great work and draft summary of the last 5 years. Very impressive.... 

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50 minutes ago, Irishman said:

I’m in favor of firing Falvey and Levine.  Both Falvey and Levine ruined the team.  Their draft strategy failed.  The scouts failed.  
 

All the Pohlad family want is MONEY!!
 

Unless Falvey and Levine are fired, I will not come watch the Twins game.

Elaborate please.

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15 hours ago, ashbury said:

I didn't see anyone clarify this for you. It's a Simpsons reference.  It's about a specific "old man" in that episode, but as a cultural reference really isn't so much about age as about raving.

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Thanks for the clarification.   I am not well versed in Simpson references. I’ve been properly admonished down thread. 

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On 9/13/2021 at 5:07 AM, Rosterman said:

The 2016 draft doesn't have much left in Twins land. Kirilloff, Rortvedt, Jax are with the big club. Balazovic is still in the wings. Baddoo and Wells are playing elsewhere with modest success, as are names like Gregg Deichmann, Sean Poppen and Tom Hackimer bidding time elsewhere. The Twins still have to make decisions on Ryan Mason and Caleb Hamilton. that is it for guys from that draft still in baseball.

Actually I think Baddoo is having much more than "moderate success". He has been part of the reason the Tigers have climbed up AL Central, and did this from high A ball. Defense needs some work on calling for balls to avoid collisions.

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Very fair question.  Honestly depends on how that 82-80 looks and was reached.  If that level is reached w/ Miranda/Kirilloff/Larnach getting extended playing time and growth during the season, along with 3 young starters showing real potential (might already be 2/3 there with Ryan and Ober but want to see a whole season), 1+ top level starter signed for at least 4-5 yrs, significantly improved defense, and a respectable bullpen then I am OK (this also assumes quality growth from Lewis, Martin, and Celistino as well as continued strong growth from other minor league arms)

 

Couldn't agree more.  It does depend on development and player progress.   I also believe that we have to see some of these top rated Farm Prospects pan out.  Show me the organization that wins on "potential"?   Top Prospects don't mean a thing until they actually stick in the Bigs.   A few of those top prospects should be expected to be impact players.  Polanco is a + player developed (really ++ in our Org because he stays on the field!), Kepler is a + because he is a great fielder and has power, but averages out because he refuses to hit to the opposite field and get himself on base.  The only ++ player who delivers offensively and defensively in the organization the Twins have developed can't stay on the field, Buxton.

I read through these threads and see several references to "corner outfielder depth".  Where?  There are people taking up roster spots that are utility outfielders, but lets be honest.  Larnach and Kiriloff have bats, but they are both first baseman.  There has not been a left fielder all season now that is not a defensive liability, or a right fielder for the half season every year that Kepler is hurt.  Most everyone besides Refsnyder appeared outmatched athletically in the field.  That's a problem.

Organizationally, pitching development has been and remains a problem.  This is a farm system and big league issue.  Either we are feeding in sub par seeds or not watering enough, because we get a scrubby harvest to take to the Big League market every year. 

I think the front office did a decent enough job trading for some talent this year and that was what they had to do---go find it somewhere else.  That is a formula that the top teams in the playoffs follow every year and they also revamp the winning teams revamp their pitching roster at the trade deadline every year.  Relievers have to be a revolving door because they tire from over-use (so they are dead for the playoff run) or they flame out in the long term.  Starters and relievers are different animals and they need to to be scouted and examined differently.  Its really like two different positions.  You have to replace the tired arms in the pen, or give them extended spells on the IL and safe them for the playoffs.

My only regression from the excellent analysis of Mr Beuchamp is that the Twins may be following the the current major league serial formula the Royals introduced in their WS year, but not doing it effectively.  Twins get innings from starters.  They leave them in 4-5 innings every outing which ups their avg starter innings.  But, the winning teams have a few starters that 30-40% of the way through the season start throwing 7 and 8 innings and winning ballgames.  The Twins do not.  They ride their pen every night and that is bad numbers.  You can't bank on all 3-5 relievers to be solid every night, it just will not happen statistically----and the deeper you get in a series and the more a team had faced an arm, they start hitting that one or two missed pitch and at bat more.

Falvine has been Max Kepler.  Solid talent, above average tools, makes good decisions most of the time---but is refusing to deal with the part of their game (or organization) that will move them to the next level.  Like Kepler's 2019 season when he did hit to opposite field, they have made some very good decisions and some good trades, but are 50/50 on free agent signings and we have not seen sustained results coming out of the farm system yet to make them a ++ front office yet.  I say give them two more years as they have signed on at least two new teams to their minor league system and that will take time to bear out.  Now, if they will recruit scouting resources from the Rays, Padres, A's, they might be able to save themselves long term.

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7 hours ago, h2oface said:

I'm still hoping that Levine and Falvey will take us beyond being competitive IN THE DIVISION to being the team to beat in baseball.

But here's the thing that concerns me: the skills required to do this (acquire more talent than you lose, sign effective free agents, and make postseason-boosting moves at the trade deadline) are the exact skills this duo seems to be missing. They had an open window in 2019-20, and they had absolutely no positive impact on the outcome in the postseason. Is it really all that scary of a proposition to give new people a try?

There's a lot of hope going around, and I hope all that hope is well-placed. But I haven't seen any evidence that this is the FO duo to get us over the hump and out of the postseason slump. Quite the opposite.

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56 minutes ago, LastOnePicked said:

But here's the thing that concerns me: the skills required to do this (acquire more talent than you lose, sign effective free agents, and make postseason-boosting moves at the trade deadline) are the exact skills this duo seems to be missing. They had an open window in 2019-20, and they had absolutely no positive impact on the outcome in the postseason. Is it really all that scary of a proposition to give new people a try?

There's a lot of hope going around, and I hope all that hope is well-placed. But I haven't seen any evidence that this is the FO duo to get us over the hump and out of the postseason slump. Quite the opposite.

Time and quality seem to have unclear definitions. 2021 pitchers signed were all failures objectively. Prior to 2021, how do Falvey and Levine compare to alternatives (other executives) in regards to free agents signed in dollar parameters? Acquiring prospects have a different timeline than free agents or ML trades. How do you evaluate that time?

im very unhappy with this season, but I’m not exactly sure how to do the evaluation comparing them to who might be available to do a better job.

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On 9/12/2021 at 11:07 PM, Rosterman said:

In 2016 they inherited a Manager, a farm system, and a draft class. They kept (and still have ) many top executives from the "Twins Family" still in their ranks, but it has only been the past three seasons (counting this and 2020), that they managed to re-format the farm system, and organization, in their dream.

The class of 2014 was when the Twins drafted a bunch of pitchers who never panned out. Gordon remains, but names like Burdi, Clay, Reed, Curtiss, Hildenberger have left the Twins and are still looking for that MLB paycheck. Also names like Taylor Hearn, Sam Hillaird, Dalton Gillespie and Mike Baumann are playing in other organizations. Most everyone else is gone or never made it.

Players from 2015 either have made the Twins, or are soon to be gone. We have Moran, Stashak on the team from that year. They traded away Blankenhorn, Vasquez and Wade. Wiel was released. Lujan and Cabbage are soon to be free agents. Names like Tyler Jay, Kyle Cody, Colton Eastman, Blake Cederlind, Dalton Sawyer, Johnathan Engerman, Tristan Pompey are still in major league ball.

The 2016 draft doesn't have much left in Twins land. Kirilloff, Rortvedt, Jax are with the big club. Balazovic is still in the wings. Baddoo and Wells are playing elsewhere with modest success, as are names like Gregg Deichmann, Sean Poppen and Tom Hackimer bidding time elsewhere. The Twins still have to make decisions on Ryan Mason and Caleb Hamilton. that is it for guys from that draft still in baseball.

Now the new administration got to draft. We are in Rule 5 territory with guys drafted in 2017. Ober, Rooker and Barnes have made it to the majors. Royce Lewis should've, but WILL be protected. Faucher was traded away and Rickey Ramirez was stolen in the Milb Rule 5. Names like Johnny DeLuca, Patrick Bailey, John McMinn, Max Meyer, Luke Miller, Griffin Roberts, Joe Record, Gabriel Rodriguez, Chandler Taylor, Cade Smith are in different organizations. The still remaining prospects are Enlow, Leach, Bechtold, Molina, Contreras, Gore - all Rule 5 eligible. Shows you how few players of the 40+ drafted do actually stay in a system for 3+ years.

2018 gave us Jeffers and Larnach. Both are still a bit raw, and we will see what 2022 brings us. But there are still 17 prospects in the system, including names like Winder, Sands, Williams, Gross, Funderburk, Schulfer, Snyder, Pinketon, Neff and Ritter. Erik Cha and Ryan Holgate are playing elsewhere. Winder is the one that needs protection.

2019 has 21 prospects still in the system as well as the FOUR members of the Class of 2020, which was a lost year for many lower level prospects. Cavaco many of us have voiced as being a bust, Canterino, Gipson-Long, Holland, Prato, Legumina, Mooney, Julien, Varland have given us some notice.

Right now, the Twins are sitting with some 120 prospects that they have signed, traded for, working on developing in their DSL program. Probably going to see close to 12-18 cut shortly, but they did sign 12 of their 21 class of 2021 whoa re all in play in Ft. Myers. Can the Twins also trade from minor league depth? Yes. 

So, yes...let's wait and see what comes from the two guys the Twins hired AT THE END OF 2016 who inherited whatever the Twins were fielding, and starting in 2018 was able to start their remake/remold of the team, only to have the minors shattered in 2020. And, remember, we are also working with revenue losses in 2020, and probably 2021. The Twins absorbed a lot in 2020 by paying many minor league folks a full salary, as well as keeping most of the operations staff under contract. Compared to over all budget, it was cheap...but still had to keep Ft. Myers going.

This year has been tough. Remember, they signed a bunch of guys like Happ and Shoemaker and Simmons and Colome as placesetters, hoping folks like Duran, Balazovic would be pitching and Lewis would be in the field by now. They expected to have Kirilloff in the line up, but more the second half than the first, which is why they had quite a few minor league free agent corner outfielders in the mix, as well as Cave who was out for a significant amount of time. And do wish that Garver would've kept Jeffers, perhaps, in the minors for more of the season. When they signed Donaldson, Miranda didn't look like he did this year (and can't quite understand why they aren't letting Miranda get at least 20 games of MLV ball under his belt going into spring training). I'm sure we also expected quite a bit more from Dobnak, Thorpe and Smeltzer.

It's hard to think the Twins have had only five general managers in their history. One being Griffith doing everything to keep from hiring others, Fox as the wedge between Griffith/Pohlad, MacPhail was the first true modern GM, from outside, and was wooed away because he was good. Terry Ryan took the job, but really didn't see it as his career. Bill Smith was a good baseball man, but NOT a good baseball man. And with Levine and Falvey the Twins actually went outside the organization HUGE BIG TIME to bring in bright, YOUNG, innovative administration.

Anyone else new coming in would just also tear things apart. Or we just promote the same tired bodies from within and always a series away from going deep in the playoffs, if we can beat most everyone in the division. I'm still hoping that Levine and Falvey will take us beyond being competitive IN THE DIVISION to being the team to beat in baseball. They supposedly had a five year plan for 2018-2022. Because of 2020, I'm willing to give them until 2023. 

Do the names, Gil, Nick Anderson, Badaoo, john Curtiss, and another reliever or two ring bells.  Under TR, Twins almost never lost players like this.  This is a much higher rate than almost any in the major leagues.  That is my issue,  they were unable to identify talent from the prior regime.  Most of those pitchers would have made a quality bullpen this year.  I am concerned this offseaon, they will be unable to tell the good from the bad, and we will have more cases of this.  

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5 hours ago, beckmt said:

Do the names, Gil, Nick Anderson, Badaoo, john Curtiss, and another reliever or two ring bells.  Under TR, Twins almost never lost players like this.

While I get your point about frequency, not a great example to use, man. Ryan let go of literally the best player the Twins ever lost for nothing, a first ballot Hall of Fame player. After the careers of every player you listed are complete, I'd bet that combined they don't equal 25% of Ortiz's career value.

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I really don't know what to think about Falvey. I don't know who to blame on the way they tried to transform Dobnak on the fly when they could have capitalized on his GP%with a top-notch infield. But FO should have stepped in and righted the ship on this and other matters.

 But my greatest complaints are their inability to make the necessary big trade, to correctly evaluate players and making silly decisions like deciding not to have an official assistant manager, when Baldelli really needed one.

I'm not sure about Falvey yet but Levine needs to go if we want to take the next step. I was sad when Macphail left. Polhad needs to bring him back.

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2 hours ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

While I get your point about frequency, not a great example to use, man. Ryan let go of literally the best player the Twins ever lost for nothing, a first ballot Hall of Fame player. After the careers of every player you listed are complete, I'd bet that combined they don't equal 25% of Ortiz's career value.

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PEDs

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No doubt this season has been a complete disaster, and has, at least to me, squandered an opportunity to capitalize on a team with Cruz and Berrios, whom would still be here if things weren't so bad.  However, I hesitate to call for the front office to be let go.  The team spun in oblivion for years, minus the aberration years here and there, and we were all clamoring for a modern front office that took analytics seriously.  It was acknowledged that once that happened, there’d be some growing pains.  Then 2019 happened.  And we all felt something special was happening.   Quicker than planned. 2020 was a weird year for everyone, and still the Twins looked to be on track.   This year is more than a step back, but to scrap all of it now would set the franchise back even further.   Falvey and Levine brought the team from where they were to what we got in 2019/2020.  It’s my opinion that they deserve a chance to right the ship.  
As far as evaluating the minor leagues, the complete system sat still in 2020 and underwent a complete overhaul in 2021.  I don’t think evaluating the Twins minor league prospects is going to be clear for a while.  Again, that’s just me.   

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7 hours ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

While I get your point about frequency, not a great example to use, man. Ryan let go of literally the best player the Twins ever lost for nothing, a first ballot Hall of Fame player. After the careers of every player you listed are complete, I'd bet that combined they don't equal 25% of Ortiz's career value.

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That would be hard to do, but they are supposed to be the pitching gurus .  And some of that was Gardy's one size fits all hitting approach for the Twins.  Not playing to the hitter's strengths

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9 minutes ago, beckmt said:

That would be hard to do, but they are supposed to be the pitching gurus .  And some of that was Gardy's one size fits all hitting approach for the Twins.  Not playing to the hitter's strengths

Gardy only managed Ortiz for one year. The thinking that led to Ortiz being released was due to a Twins philosophy from top to bottom, which was absolutely endorsed by the front office.

And are they less adept at developing pitching because they traded an 18 year old Luis Gil in a move to supplement division-winning rosters? I understand the point that they've lost too much MLB talent - a point I agree with - but the loss of Ortiz was and will forever be a bigger blunder than the loss of any other Twins player because giving away first ballot HoF guys is an extremely rare occurrence. 

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On 9/14/2021 at 5:53 AM, Irishman said:

I’m in favor of firing Falvey and Levine.  Both Falvey and Levine ruined the team.  Their draft strategy failed.  The scouts failed.  
 

All the Pohlad family want is MONEY!!
 

Unless Falvey and Levine are fired, I will not come watch the Twins game.

They have the 9th rated farm system, with Larnach and Jeffers having graduated (according to Fangraphs).

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