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OPINION: The ‘Fire Falvine’ talk should stop (for now)


cHawk
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8 minutes ago, Dodecahedron said:

I wasn't talking about Shoemaker.  Pull up some of the interviews from the 1991 reunion tour.

I'm surprised you forgot Frank Viola as well.

I didn't forget Viola, I just don't care about his opinion for a couple of reasons:

1. He has been extremely vocal about his dislike of analytics and the trends of modern baseball

2. AFAIK, he has no working relationship with the Twins today and likely has little more actual, substantive information on the workings of the organization than we do

While I think Shoemaker was speaking with a fair amount of sour grapes in his mouth, at least he was there and had actual, informed opinions about why things went wrong this season.

And even if I give you Viola, you said "the number" but claimed you weren't talking about Shoemaker.

Who else spoke up?

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54 minutes ago, Dodecahedron said:

I appreciate your opinion, but I don't recall anyone saying that anybody should be fired.

There are a lot of people who aren't happy with certain people in the org, which given the circumstances is to be expected.  If it were me in charge, there would be some tough conversations, but firing anyone would not be Plan A.  Knowing the Twins, firing people is not even Plan Z.

Given the number of Twins veterans who observed a lack of support in the org and spoke up about it, if the Twins don't listen to that, yeah they should be fired.  Time will tell if they got the message.

There are calls for the FO to be fired every day on this site. Have been for months. Not everyone who complains about them has been saying it, but there have most definitely been direct calls for their termination.

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20 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

There are calls for the FO to be fired every day on this site. Have been for months. Not everyone who complains about them has been saying it, but there have most definitely been direct calls for their termination.

I'm on this site every day and I don't see anything like this.  This is your interpretation of what people are saying.

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45 minutes ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

I didn't forget Viola, I just don't care about his opinion for a couple of reasons:

You are essentially saying you value Shoemaker's opinion over Viola's.  That's interesting.

I believe all Viola said is that culture is important in a clubhouse.  I think even if it were Charles Manson who said that, it's difficult to dismiss out of hand just due to the source.  It's true.  Some people around here wedged the word analytics into Viola's statement, which he never said or alluded to.

In any case, here are some of the people who said the same thing Viola said.  They said this more diplomatically than Viola, using statements like, "The 1991 team sure had a lot of support, that's how you win ball games" or "Playing pitchers in the right role is important.  Ron Davis was a great pitcher, but the Twins played him out of position."

It was obvious to anyone paying attention that these guys were saying these things for a reason.  Viola mirrored what other veterans had been saying all through the previous week, he just said it more directly.

Rick Aguilera
Scott Erickson
Kevin Tapani
Greg Gagne
Jim Kaat
Dan Gladden

(Note that Shoemaker did not say a word about clubhouse culture that I recall.  He spoke up about the coaching advice.  I think perhaps you misunderstood my point, as I am not talking about coaching advice at all.  I'm talking about culture.  I did, after all, use the word "support" in my original statement, not "coaching.")

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28 minutes ago, Dodecahedron said:

I'm on this site every day and I don't see anything like this.  This is your interpretation of what people are saying.

I'm not interpreting things. I'm telling you there are posts that have the exact words "The front office should be fired" or something very close to that. I'm not going to take the time to comb through thread after thread, but on Friday gunnarthur posted in the "How quickly we Forget" thread "I've seen enough even though I'm sure they'll come back next year." I'm not going to post that entire post, but there is no doubt that they are literally saying they've seen enough of this FO and want them fired. If you want to call that interpreting and claim I'm misreading that, fine, but you'll have a hard time convincing anyone that that isn't a call for the FO to be fired. I'm not going to go through hundreds of posts to find more examples, and won't call out other posters directly without having the quotes in front of me, but I can think of at least 3 people I've seen post other direct calls for the FO to be fired. And they post them pretty regularly. No interpreting needed kind of posts. Literally saying the FO are idiots and need to be fired.

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18 minutes ago, Dodecahedron said:

You are essentially saying you value Shoemaker's opinion over Viola's.  That's interesting.

I don't know why that's terribly interesting. We all should listen to those with first-hand information over old men who are 1,500 miles away, yelling at clouds on Twitter.

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10 minutes ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

I don't know why that's terribly interesting. We all should listen to those with first-hand information over old men who are 1,500 miles away, yelling at clouds on Twitter.

That’s weird. Kind of a coarse rebuttal but maybe that’s because I’m Violas age. 

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My patience with them is decreasing, but I’ll give them another year to prove this season is a fluke. If I was Jim Pohlad I would give clear instructions that they need to retool this winter with the intention of winning. Because they will not be leading the next 3-5 year rebuild if they can’t win with the current core they’ve built and developed. 

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28 minutes ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

I don't know why that's terribly interesting. We all should listen to those with first-hand information over old men who are 1,500 miles away, yelling at clouds on Twitter.

And may be carrying a grudge for not being given a position with the Twins he wanted (that was pointed out elsewhere)

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10 minutes ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

I has a lot more to do with Viola's demeanor than his actual age. He fits very neatly into the "old man yelling at clouds" segment of baseball analysis.

I guess I’m not familiar with that. I think your point about him not being involved in the org is much more salient than making sweeping generalizations based on somebody’s age. 

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30 minutes ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

I has a lot more to do with Viola's demeanor than his actual age. He fits very neatly into the "old man yelling at clouds" segment of baseball analysis.

His personality has not changed.  

He was traded from the Twins a few months after signing a new contract because his personality had become too poisonous.  For fans, the newspaper reports about how he had been acting before the trade was the first time we had ever heard such things about him.

When it comes to his good years, those around him and coaching him credited his success to when he learned to control his temper.  Coaches had been pleading with him for years to calm down.  Again, as fans, we never heard anything about this at the time.

Not only does Viola understand culture from the positive side of things, but he understands how being in a bubble can negatively affect a team as well.  You miss all of this nuance by dismissing him out of hand, and you mischaracterize his statement by attributing it to "advanced analytics." 

Perhaps his native New York personality goes against your midwestern sensibilities, but realize Viola has never changed.

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35 minutes ago, Dodecahedron said:

His personality has not changed.  

He was traded from the Twins a few months after signing a new contract because his personality had become too poisonous.  For fans, the newspaper reports about how he had been acting before the trade was the first time we had ever heard such things about him.

When it comes to his good years, those around him and coaching him credited his success to when he learned to control his temper.  Coaches had been pleading with him for years to calm down.  Again, as fans, we never heard anything about this at the time.

Not only does Viola understand culture from the positive side of things, but he understands how being in a bubble can negatively affect a team as well.  You miss all of this nuance by dismissing him out of hand, and you mischaracterize his statement by attributing it to "advanced analytics." 

Perhaps his native New York personality goes against your midwestern sensibilities, but realize Viola has never changed.

He is 100% not a fan of how baseball decisions are made today. That's clear from his tweets over time. But, it is 2021, not 1991.....so times have 100% changed. And it isn't going backward. Whether he's changed or not, I have no idea. Brock's point stands, he's anti-progress and analytics and is definitely old man yelling at clouds in his tone and words.

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45 minutes ago, Dodecahedron said:

His personality has not changed.  

He was traded from the Twins a few months after signing a new contract because his personality had become too poisonous.  For fans, the newspaper reports about how he had been acting before the trade was the first time we had ever heard such things about him.

When it comes to his good years, those around him and coaching him credited his success to when he learned to control his temper.  Coaches had been pleading with him for years to calm down.  Again, as fans, we never heard anything about this at the time.

Not only does Viola understand culture from the positive side of things, but he understands how being in a bubble can negatively affect a team as well.  You miss all of this nuance by dismissing him out of hand, and you mischaracterize his statement by attributing it to "advanced analytics." 

Perhaps his native New York personality goes against your midwestern sensibilities, but realize Viola has never changed.

Not sure anyone is saying his demeanor changed. Him having a bad temper then and now doesn't really matter. But the point of Viola (and all the other guys you listed previously, outside maybe Kaat and Gladden) having not stepped foot in the Twins clubhouse this year (maybe technically wrong as I'm sure a number of them did during the reunion weekend, but in any meaningful way it's true) stands.

Former players talking about current clubhouse atmosphere has no more weight than any random TD poster speaking about current clubhouse atmosphere. We've all been a part of a group in some way, shape, or form (work, school, sports, friend groups, family, etc.). We all know that things are better when the members of the group genuinely get along. But none of us who aren't actually in the clubhouse can say what the clubhouse is really like. I haven't seen any reports (certainly possible I missed them) coming from actual Twin players about the clubhouse being bad. I have seen the report and complaints from Shoemaker and I give that far more weight since he's speaking from first hand knowledge of this season's organization.

Why would we care what Viola, Aguilera, Erickson, Tapani, Gagne, Kaat, or Gladden have to say about the current Twins org when they don't have any more knowledge of the actual internal happenings than we do? Them having been major league baseball players gives them no more understanding of the current organization than anyone else. Whether they're talking about clubhouse chemistry, the strategy and processes used to make decisions, signings or trades, or anything else about the internal workings of the current Twins team doesn't even matter. None of them are in the room. None of them have any more knowledge about it than we do. And I'd argue that there's probably some on TD who understand the current strategy and thought processes of MLB organizations better than a number of the old players. The core of their comments is simply "back in our day it didn't work like this." That's not enough to get me to care. It's not their day anymore and things are done differently. Athletes care about different things and teams are managed in different ways. You can dislike it, and prefer the previous ways, but that doesn't give them anymore weight.

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Just now, Linus said:

Hmmm….it says old man.  I guess I don’t get it. 

The phrase is certainly using a cross section of older individuals who tend to complain just to complain/are generally cranky individuals to make it's point, but anyone can be an "old man yelling at clouds." I think that's the point trying to be made. It's not just older individuals who complain just to complain or are cranky (believe me, I know plenty of people in my age group that are "old men yelling at clouds), but that's the stereotype it plays on.

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6 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

Why would we care what Viola, Aguilera, Erickson, Tapani, Gagne, Kaat, or Gladden have to say about the current Twins org when they don't have any more knowledge of the actual internal happenings than we do?

Kaat and Gladden are with the team every day.

The others had VIP access/full access to the team for two weeks.  They all witnessed the same thing and had the same takeaways.  

I'm guessing you know these things, so why did you spend time writing all that?

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12 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

He is 100% not a fan of how baseball decisions are made today. That's clear from his tweets over time. But, it is 2021, not 1991.....so times have 100% changed. And it isn't going backward. Whether he's changed or not, I have no idea. Brock's point stands, he's anti-progress and analytics and is definitely old man yelling at clouds in his tone and words.

Repeating this again.  His opinion on something else does not have anything to do with this particular statement.  "My point stands," as you would say.

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4 minutes ago, Dodecahedron said:

Kaat and Gladden are with the team every day.

The others had VIP access/full access to the team for two weeks.  They all witnessed the same thing and had the same takeaways.  

I'm guessing you know these things, so why did you spend time writing all that?

Dude, pump the brakes. While everyone here is being respectful, you just very intentionally mis-quoted chpettit. You grabbed a quote from his third paragraph and responded while this was literally the second sentence of his post:

Quote

But the point of Viola (and all the other guys you listed previously, outside maybe Kaat and Gladden) having not stepped foot in the Twins clubhouse this year (maybe technically wrong as I'm sure a number of them did during the reunion weekend, but in any meaningful way it's true) stands.

This is a clear example of arguing dishonestly. We expect better on Twins Daily.

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Dobnak). 

 

Overpaying for a still young Berrios or Buxton, is that bad if you are willing to do it for aging mid-rotation starters or gutsy third basemen. As long as on a team and producing, they can still be trade chips if push comes to shove and you have to shed payroll, or reboot because the group isn't performing as you wish. 

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No none here knows, unless some here played pro-ball including even a time in the minors, what is really going on in the pits.

We all do it but there is way too much arm-chair quarter back thinking (or in this case printed imperiousness) about what we know nothing.

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23 minutes ago, Dodecahedron said:

Kaat and Gladden are with the team every day.

The others had VIP access/full access to the team for two weeks.  They all witnessed the same thing and had the same takeaways.  

I'm guessing you know these things, so why did you spend time writing all that?

Maybe I didn't express myself well. I don't care about their "VIP access" at all, so I'll just skip over that. I acknowledged that Kaat and Gladden may have more insights (Kaat isn't with them every day, though). My point is that current athletes and organizations have different expectations and priorities than these guys who played 30 years ago. I know multiple Twins employees, including people who run the clubhouses, and none of them have said anything about there being bad chemistry.

Shoemaker is the only player I've seen complain about anything (totally possible I missed someone else), but his complaint was about the coaching tips he received. Berrios had nothing bad to say on his way out. Cruz had nothing but great things to say on his way out. Many former players don't like the way things are done currently, but they also grew up in very different times and lived through a very different professional baseball world. So why should I care about their thoughts on how effectively the current Twins team is doing things (whether it be signings and trades, how the clubhouse is run, how the team is managed in game, or anything else) when their expectations don't match those of the current professional baseball world?

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19 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

So why should I care about their thoughts on how effectively the current Twins team is doing things (whether it be signings and trades, how the clubhouse is run, how the team is managed in game, or anything else) when their expectations don't match those of the current professional baseball world?

You don't have to care.  However, remember that I was responding to someone who asked for a list of names.  I can appreciate that you don't care, but note that I wasn't talking to you and I don't expect you to care.

I suppose in the grand scheme of things, I don't care either.  My life does not change whether the Twins collapse or if they win the world series.  I am merely relaying information.  Some people in this thread, not you, are choosing to cherry pick on this, which is their prerogative.  

However, there are a hell of a lot of words being thrown around when it all could have been summed up in one sentence:  "I don't trust the sources."  Instead we are talking about clouds, Shoemaker, Cruz, and if this goes on long enough, perhaps Cookie Monster.

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15 minutes ago, Dodecahedron said:

You don't have to care.  However, remember that I was responding to someone who asked for a list of names.  I can appreciate that you don't care, but note that I wasn't talking to you and I don't expect you to care.

I suppose in the grand scheme of things, I don't care either.  My life does not change whether the Twins collapse or if they win the world series.  I am merely relaying information.  Some people in this thread, not you, are choosing to cherry pick on this, which is their prerogative.  

However, there are a hell of a lot of words being thrown around when it all could have been summed up in one sentence:  "I don't trust the sources."  Instead we are talking about clouds, Shoemaker, Cruz, and if this goes on long enough, perhaps Cookie Monster.

Well they asked for a list of names because you said that there were a number of "Twins veterans" who were complaining about the FO and an apparent lack of support felt by the team. So, sure, my point is probably more along the lines of "I don't trust the sources," but in the big picture I'm arguing against your stance that if the Twins don't listen to the message given by these sources the FO should be fired. If Pohlad is firing people because a handful of guys who played 30 years ago aren't happy the Twins are in worse trouble than any of us could imagine. We don't need to be doing things the way they were done 30 years ago, we need to be doing them the way they're done in 2021, just do them better. So I'm saying your stance of basing anything off what those guys said is one I strongly disagree with and think it would doom the organization as a whole if ownership follows the advice of people who aren't part of the organization anymore (outside of Kaat and Gladden).

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17 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

Well they asked for a list of names because you said that there were a number of "Twins veterans" who were complaining about the FO and an apparent lack of support felt by the team. So, sure, my point is probably more along the lines of "I don't trust the sources," but in the big picture I'm arguing against your stance that if the Twins don't listen to the message given by these sources the FO should be fired. If Pohlad is firing people because a handful of guys who played 30 years ago aren't happy the Twins are in worse trouble than any of us could imagine. We don't need to be doing things the way they were done 30 years ago, we need to be doing them the way they're done in 2021, just do them better. So I'm saying your stance of basing anything off what those guys said is one I strongly disagree with and think it would doom the organization as a whole if ownership follows the advice of people who aren't part of the organization anymore (outside of Kaat and Gladden).

That's still a lot of words for stuff you already said more than adequately, especially after you said you don't care.  If you start talking about cookie monster, I'm out.

National Sugar Cookie Day GIF

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4 minutes ago, Dodecahedron said:

That's still a lot of words for stuff you already said more than adequately, especially after you said you don't care.  If you start talking about cookie monster, I'm out.

National Sugar Cookie Day GIF

What's wrong with cookie monster?! I mean he should probably get checked for diabetes, but otherwise he seems like a nice enough dude.

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4 hours ago, Linus said:

I don’t care for the premise of the post. People are entitled to their opinion and nobody needs to tell them what they are allowed to post within the rules of the forum. I don’t think they should be fired but if other people do that’s their opinion. 

I never did. It literally says OPINION on the front of the title. I never said people aren’t allowed to have their opinions.

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