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Big Mike Pineda staying.


I understand wanting a veteran in the locker room, and while Maeda is that, English isn’t strong for him. It’s more difficult for a guy like that to mentor guys, so keeping Big Mike for a mentorship role is fine if there were truly not legit offers on the table. However, I find it difficult to believe that there were not offers on the table for him.  At this point I think I’d give him whatever he’s making this year plus an 8M team option with a small buyout in 2023 to stick around as a MOR guy to stabilize the rotation. I do think it’s likely that we see Kenta moved this off-season, which makes me willing to do the extension even more. If we end up just holding Pineda for the year and letting him walk, I’m super disappointed and it’s an epic failure. 

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18 minutes ago, mikelink45 said:

I sure hope you are right.  But I am wait and see. 

I'm wait and see too.  My silver lining is that the team is no longer acting like this is a high school sports squad that has no control over incoming talent and just hopes for the best (all it takes is to believe!).  They're playing the "game" like other front offices have been doing.

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I mean... any suggestions of using Matt Shoemaker as a veteran mentor for younger Twins pitchers at this point is probably sketchy. Lemme think about how that conversation goes.

Shoemaker "Yeah, I like the guys personally, but the front office and all their moneyball B.S. will totally screw you up. Basically, they're nice, but clueless. Don't listen to them."

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On 7/30/2021 at 2:18 PM, Mike Sixel said:

I've posted this too much, but since this is a Pineda thread.......

They have 2 veterans on the MLB roster to mentor the young players. I think we all under estimate the value of that. I'd try to extend Pineda 2 years. Then either sign or deal for a better SP in the off season. Pineda, Meada, FA/Trade + 2 from this system is what I'd start the year with.

I think rotating the AAA / AA players thru this year, to get their feet wet and see their stuff against MLB players is important, and I think Pineda and Maeda being here to mentor them is also important.

Pineda can extol the hazards of using banned substances and getting caught (hey, it is what it is), and the consequences of wearing the sticky cheating stuff on your neck. Also, how not to stay in shape and still be an MLB pitcher. Hopefully he doesn't impart on them the time he takes between pitches. 

Pineda, to me, doesn't appear to be the inspiration one would look for in a mentor.

And when it comes to a possible extension, they could resign him for 2022 even if he was traded. Isn't that the whole reason to trade Cruz? Free agent at the end of the year, anyway. 2 months of Pineda mentoring. Just not very valuable.

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2 hours ago, Otto von Ballpark said:

 

August seems like a strange time to start caring about respectability.

If all you could get were more Jax/Ober/Sands types, I would have been disappointed anyway though.

But this team traded Rick Aguilera and brought him back. Twice.

I understand not moving Simmons, he’s awful, the Twins would have had to eat all his salary and just to get waiver wire fodder.

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18 minutes ago, Twodogs said:

They won't offer Pineda anything that he will take, I'm sure he will get better offers elsewhere and he will be gone.  Should have traded him.

Yeah, no way the Twins can afford to beat that 2 year, $20M contract Pineda is in line for.

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7 minutes ago, nicksaviking said:

August seems like a strange time to start caring about respectability.

If all you could get were more Jax/Ober/Sands types, I would have been disappointed anyway though.

But this team traded Rick Aguilera and brought him back. Twice.

I understand not moving Simmons, he’s awful, the Twins would have had to eat all his salary and just to get waiver wire fodder.

Umm, what salary relief are the Twins getting by keeping him on the roster and paying his full salary?

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I guess I'm confused.  Yeah, The Twins traded an important player.  But if trading Berrios causes the complete collapse of The Twins, I was misinformed.  Years ago, he was a prospect that we were told "has Ace stuff"!  Years later, we learned "no, he doesn't have Ace stuff".  He's a perfectly suited #2 or "high #2" pitcher.  Unfortunately, him and his agent are demanding "Ace Money".  To edit a MN legend quote, "He is who we thought he was!".  He's not an ace.  You can even debate he's a #2 on a World Series team, BUT correct me if I'm wrong, all MLB teams are trying to WIN the WS.  FINALLY, a Twins Front Office capitalized on a player with their greatest value!  I say "Bravo", you finally cut bait on a player who will NEVER offset the haul you traded for.  (Wish you would've taken the same advice on Sano, but we're not here to quibble....).  So, bravo to Twins front office, keep Maeda, extend Pineda and extend.  I'm shocked the doom and gloom from losing a #2 and dumpster diving Happ and Robles.  

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1 hour ago, Cap'n Piranha said:

Then you should be really happy with this week, since it jumpstarted the rebuild by quite a bit.  2-3 starters, 3-4 relievers, and a flexible OBP machine bat goes a long way to making the team better in 2023 (since I believe all of them are at AA or higher).  The Twins now have 5 guys with ceilings of Berrios or better (Duran, Balazovic, Winder, Ryan, SWR), and a bunch more of mid-back rotation guys (Ober, Dobnak, Sands, Barnes, Canterino, Varland, Strotman).  Starting in 2023, that should be enough to get 2-4 reliable starters; invest in a top of the rotation guy in free agency/trade some of your newly acquired prospect capital, and the rotation can get better in a hurry.  Take those 3 guys they just acquired out of the equation, and you're now more likely to get 1-2 reliable starters.

None of them have the ceiling of Berrios until they prove it on the field in the majors

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20 minutes ago, nicksaviking said:

But this team traded Rick Aguilera and brought him back. Twice.

We traded Aguilera twice, but only brought him back once (after the Frankie Rodriguez trade). He finished his career as a Cub after the Kyle Lohse trade.

Of course, that still leaves him one trade and re-sign ahead of Pineda!

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11 minutes ago, Cap'n Piranha said:

Umm, what salary relief are the Twins getting by keeping him on the roster and paying his full salary?

What contending team would want to pay him ANY money? Would he be more than a utility player on a good team?

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4 minutes ago, Otto von Ballpark said:

We traded Aguilera twice, but only brought him back once (after the Frankie Rodriguez trade). He finished his career as a Cub after the Kyle Lohse trade.

Of course, that still leaves him one trade and re-sign ahead of Pineda!

I thought he he had a spring training invite the next year but retired instead. Upon further research looks like he retired Feb 17, 2000, so I may be remembering the wrong.

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1 hour ago, Mike Sixel said:

I'll try not to repeat myself, but anyone that doesn't get multiple starts in MN this year can't be counted on to start the season in MN next year. They need, probably, 2 starters from the system to do that next year. Ober, Dobnak, Winder, B*, Ryan are all ahead of Jax. I truly think they are doing Jax a disservice here, as I think he can be a MLB RP.....

I mean, I agree with you, but I'm also not convinced that the plan should be to compete from Day 1 next year.  If the pieces fall in place, great, but I believe the best course forward is to not care about competing in 2022, but attempt to build to competitiveness in 2023, and all-out contention in 2024.  As such, I care more about what's best for 2023/2024 Winder far more than 2022 Winder, and bringing him up to the bigs to take starts against a series of really good teams (seriously, look at our August schedule) while he's still trying to adjust to AAA (only 4 starts there), seems like potentially opening the door to some confidence loss.

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I wonder where the Twins missed the opportunity.

Was there a starter that moved that was clearly inferior to Pineda? A case could be made that the Twins could have acquired that same return that was in the deal for that inferior starter. Did they miss an opportunity here?

Jon Lester for Lane Thomas - I really don’t see how Lane Thomas would be retained in the 40 man roster. I don’t think this is a missed opportunity.

I don’t see another opportunity. Duffy and Gibson moved but they are better starting pitchers. The only case I can make is the Twins could have acquired Lane Thomas. The thought that Pineda may have more value to the Twins in these two months as a mentor seems reasonable.

Edit- Andrew Heaney might be the best comp. Would the Yankees have preferred Pineda? Maybe. Heaney has the better xFIP this year and better health.

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16 minutes ago, mikelink45 said:

None of them have the ceiling of Berrios until they prove it on the field in the majors

I don't think you understand how prospect ceilings work.  It's called the ceiling precisely because they haven't proven it.  If they do prove it, then they've reached their ceiling.  If everything works out perfectly, Duran, Balazovic, Winder, Ryan, and SWR will all be as good or better than Berrios.  It's also a very real possibility that none of them are ever as good as Berrios, but having 5 guys with a Berrios ceiling is preferable to 3 guys with a Berrios ceiling, given that the single most likely outcome is probably that 0-1 of these guys hits the Berrios level.  With only 3, the single most likely outcome is that none of them do.

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10 minutes ago, nicksaviking said:

What contending team would want to pay him ANY money? Would he be more than a utility player on a good team?

Yeah, but you didn't say no team would want him even if the Twins paid his full salary.  You said the Twins would have to pay his full salary just to get waiver wire quality back.  My point is that, trade while paying his full salary or no trade, the Twins will still be paying his full salary, so why not get a lottery ticket instead of nothing?  It's like if you're vacationing in Cabo, and then remember you have tickets to the Twins game that starts in 5 minutes.  Sure, you might only be able to get 5 bucks for each of them when you paid $50, but since you're not getting a refund no matter what, why not take the $5?

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44 minutes ago, Cap'n Piranha said:

Yeah, but you didn't say no team would want him even if the Twins paid his full salary.  You said the Twins would have to pay his full salary just to get waiver wire quality back.  My point is that, trade while paying his full salary or no trade, the Twins will still be paying his full salary, so why not get a lottery ticket instead of nothing?  It's like if you're vacationing in Cabo, and then remember you have tickets to the Twins game that starts in 5 minutes.  Sure, you might only be able to get 5 bucks for each of them when you paid $50, but since you're not getting a refund no matter what, why not take the $5?

Well if you can’t get anything for him and still have to pay him, maybe it’s a better idea, to let his defense help boost the confidence of the young pitchers who will be making up most of the rotation?

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51 minutes ago, Cap'n Piranha said:

I mean, I agree with you, but I'm also not convinced that the plan should be to compete from Day 1 next year.  If the pieces fall in place, great, but I believe the best course forward is to not care about competing in 2022, but attempt to build to competitiveness in 2023, and all-out contention in 2024.  As such, I care more about what's best for 2023/2024 Winder far more than 2022 Winder, and bringing him up to the bigs to take starts against a series of really good teams (seriously, look at our August schedule) while he's still trying to adjust to AAA (only 4 starts there), seems like potentially opening the door to some confidence loss.

Agree 100%.  Sometimes strategically delaying gratification can lead to greater happiness.  Twins haven't taken this approach in the past, lets see how it works out.

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3 hours ago, Mike Sixel said:

9 of their top 12 prospects are in AA or AAA....not to mention a bunch of RPs there. I don't see a long rebuild, unless they are just plain flat bad at developing players. 

Plus the 4 or 5 players who graduated from the minors including Jeffers Larnarch, Killeroff, and soon Rooker.  Gordon too if he was still on the list....

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2 hours ago, bean5302 said:

I mean... any suggestions of using Matt Shoemaker as a veteran mentor for younger Twins pitchers at this point is probably sketchy. Lemme think about how that conversation goes.

Shoemaker "Yeah, I like the guys personally, but the front office and all their moneyball B.S. will totally screw you up. Basically, they're nice, but clueless. Don't listen to them."

bean:  Totally agree with your comments.  I have no ax to grind against Shoemaker as I respect his work and determination to fight back against his laundry list of injuries, but after his recent comments trashing the Twins mgmt/ Rocco/ Wes Johnson focus on analytics after he pitched well against AAA competition, there is ZERO CHANCE he's offered any mentoring opportunity.  Hopefully Winder and others at Saint Paul keep their focus awaiting their call up.

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We just sent away the best arm this franchise has had since Johan, and in the process created a 4th rotation spot that needs to be filled for next year, but Big Mike needed to stick around for 2 months because we're worried about respectability sitting in last place in the worst division in the AL......

I can't.....

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3 hours ago, Cap'n Piranha said:

Yeah, no way the Twins can afford to beat that 2 year, $20M contract Pineda is in line for.

Yeah you are correct, they could, but they won't.  I mean Hand is a local kid and they wouldn't give him 10 mill for one year, (and they needed a back end bullpen guy really bad this off-season, and they were supposed to contend this year!) so why would they give Pineda a 2 year deal worth 20 mil? (When they won't be in contention) I mean the chances that the Twins give him 2 years is almost nil.  I could see them offering a 1 year 7 - 8 mil with incentives and some other team will give him that 2 year 20 mil, like you said, and he will be gone.  

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4 hours ago, Danchat said:

He took the deal the Twins offered him after he hit FA in 2018... he’s already inked 2 deals here, not sure why a third is impossible.

He was coming off Tommy John when the Twins inked him. He spent a whole season just recovering and when they brought him back they were contending, now they are not so there isn't really much reason for him to even want to come back, especially if a team that has the possibility of competing for a chance at post season play might want him.  When they brought him here not many teams wanted his services due to the fact of his Tommy John situation, now it's possible that other teams may want him?  But I mean why would he want to came back?  So he can be a father figure?

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My guess is they want to re-sign/extend Pineda.  If you trade him you can still sign him again but if him and his new team hit it off well and do well in the playoffs, that ship could sail as winning might bypass the good feelings he has for Minnesota and now the Twins are dumpster diving in Free Agency for their #2 starter next offseason..  I can see an extension before season is over now.

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32 minutes ago, Twodogs said:

He was coming off Tommy John when the Twins inked him. He spent a whole season just recovering and when they brought him back they were contending, now they are not so there isn't really much reason for him to even want to come back, especially if a team that has the possibility of competing for a chance at post season play might want him.  When they brought him here not many teams wanted his services due to the fact of his Tommy John situation, now it's possible that other teams may want him?  But I mean why would he want to came back?  So he can be a father figure?

He's signed two 2 year deals here, I was talking about the second one, not the first. After the first was over (following a 26 starts, 4.01 ERA 2.2 WAR season), he hit free agency and ended up signing the 2 year $20M deal with us. Perhaps he wants to chase a ring, but the Twins offer a fair deal like they did in 2019, he will probably take it.

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58 minutes ago, Danchat said:

He's signed two 2 year deals here, I was talking about the second one, not the first. After the first was over (following a 26 starts, 4.01 ERA 2.2 WAR season), he hit free agency and ended up signing the 2 year $20M deal with us. Perhaps he wants to chase a ring, but the Twins offer a fair deal like they did in 2019, he will probably take it.

If the Twins offer the highest offer that Big Mike receives then he will probably sign it.  I'm pretty sure if another team offers him more then he will probably sign that one.  So far after watching the Twins do business it seems like they always under bid by just a little and if the Twins had a shot to win right now maybe, if Big Mike's agent allowed him to, maybe he would sign for a team friendly deal.  I just don't see it, so I'm betting he walks at the end of the year, does Big Mike bring back a comp pick??

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7 hours ago, Twodogs said:

If the Twins offer the highest offer that Big Mike receives then he will probably sign it.  I'm pretty sure if another team offers him more then he will probably sign that one.  So far after watching the Twins do business it seems like they always under bid by just a little and if the Twins had a shot to win right now maybe, if Big Mike's agent allowed him to, maybe he would sign for a team friendly deal.  I just don't see it, so I'm betting he walks at the end of the year, does Big Mike bring back a comp pick??

You’re talking about a guy the Twins have signed in free agency twice. He’s literally the worst example you could use. 

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