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7 point twins plan for 2nd half


 

welcome...

This is my 7 point plan for the 2nd half of the season, so simple straight forward plans

1)Rocco gets 1 more year, let him learn and figure things out if he does we reap the benefits. He doesn't he goes.

2)Cruz gets dealt but 1 player coming back must be mlb ready I'm not saying wandy Franco don't worry, but say an arm for the bullpen.

3)Rogers gets dealt for a young starter period, say Garcia from the Astros If not sign him say 2 years 25 million (12.5 yearly) with a player option 

4)Donaldson trade him for some minor league potential obviously the more we help with the salary the better, but sometimes just gotta move players on.

5)Kepler gets dealt would like a deal to a team like Pittsburgh, hey I love max but we have our 2 lefty batters for the future kirloff and larnach pirates have good arms who could help sooner than later and max can be a staple in that lineup for years to come.

6) Simmons and Oakland are a great match.

7)Barrios gotta deal him he is not going to give a team friendly deal sorry, so I think a deal like the clevinger deal could work, in that deal Cleveland received. 2 pitchers 2 infielders a catcher and outfielder. So deal him before you lose him

There are a few DFA candidates but this will allow the team to reload for 2022

Sjm

 

 

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Hard to put all of blame on Rocco, a lot of key injuries and FA pickups that just have not performed at expected level. My priorities to move players are Donaldson, Cruz, Simmons, Colome-maybe for a bag of balls, Berrios if looks like Twins will not be able to extend, Pineda. Rogers and Kepler are interesting considerations. Would concentrate on arms to receive in trades, maybe SS. Doubt if get impact players in most of the trades, Berrios, Kepler, Rogers trades would have to be for potential impact players.

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34 minutes ago, 4twinsJA said:

Hard to put all of blame on Rocco, a lot of key injuries and FA pickups that just have not performed at expected level. My priorities to move players are Donaldson, Cruz, Simmons, Colome-maybe for a bag of balls, Berrios if looks like Twins will not be able to extend, Pineda. Rogers and Kepler are interesting considerations. Would concentrate on arms to receive in trades, maybe SS. Doubt if get impact players in most of the trades, Berrios, Kepler, Rogers trades would have to be for potential impact players.

 

34 minutes ago, 4twinsJA said:

Hard to put all of blame on Rocco, a lot of key injuries and FA pickups that just have not performed at expected level. My priorities to move players are Donaldson, Cruz, Simmons, Colome-maybe for a bag of balls, Berrios if looks like Twins will not be able to extend, Pineda. Rogers and Kepler are interesting considerations. Would concentrate on arms to receive in trades, maybe SS. Doubt if get impact players in most of the trades, Berrios, Kepler, Rogers trades would have to be for potential impact players.

But Rocco has not helped...especially early in the year.  He just doesn't seem able to adjust.

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1 hour ago, Scot67 said:

 

welcome...

This is my 7 point plan for the 2nd half of the season, so simple straight forward plans

1)Rocco gets 1 more year, let him learn and figure things out if he does we reap the benefits. He doesn't he goes.

2)Cruz gets dealt but 1 player coming back must be mlb ready I'm not saying wandy Franco don't worry, but say an arm for the bullpen.

3)Rogers gets dealt for a young starter period, say Garcia from the Astros If not sign him say 2 years 25 million (12.5 yearly) with a player option 

4)Donaldson trade him for some minor league potential obviously the more we help with the salary the better, but sometimes just gotta move players on.

5)Kepler gets dealt would like a deal to a team like Pittsburgh, hey I love max but we have our 2 lefty batters for the future kirloff and larnach pirates have good arms who could help sooner than later and max can be a staple in that lineup for years to come.

6) Simmons and Oakland are a great match.

7)Barrios gotta deal him he is not going to give a team friendly deal sorry, so I think a deal like the clevinger deal could work, in that deal Cleveland received. 2 pitchers 2 infielders a catcher and outfielder. So deal him before you lose him

There are a few DFA candidates but this will allow the team to reload for 2022

Sjm

 

 

 1 - I don't see anyway Rocco is let go following the season. like, none.

2 - Cruz isn't going to return nearly as much as people are hoping for, there just isn't a market. The return will be an upside lower level prospect.

3 - Garcia would be great, but he's way to important to the Astros now. They are in the midst of making a playoff run and Verlander + Greinke are going to be 37 year old free agents 

4 - If you have hopes of a reload for 2022, why deal Donaldson. You're eating a ton of money either way, he's playing pretty damn well, and your just creating a hole for a team that hypothetically wants to be competitive.

5 - Kepler's value is probably as low as it will ever be. He actually has some fantastic underlying stats if you look at baseball savant, almost identical to his 2019 season. I think he'll get back on track in a matter of time.

6 - Good call with Simmons.

7- You can get a lot more for Berrios than what Clevinger got the Indians.

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4 hours ago, Mike Sixel said:

You aren't getting a MLB ready player for Cruz. More likely a lottery ticket in A ball. I'm also no fan of dealing Kepler. He will be more than worth his deal, and it would be nice if 1 OF could field his position.

I would keep Cruz then. He can do more positive for the Twins this year and maybe next than an A ball player. I think the Twins and Cruz have been a great marriage. Just my opinion.

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39 minutes ago, Greglw3 said:

I would keep Cruz then. He can do more positive for the Twins this year and maybe next than an A ball player. I think the Twins and Cruz have been a great marriage. Just my opinion.

What good can he do this year? They are 100% not making the playoffs. Also, if he's the secret sauce, what happened this year?

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40 minutes ago, howeda7 said:

If you trade Cruz and Donaldson (and Pineda and Simmons), you don't need Berrios, Buxton or Rogers to take "team friendly" deals. You can sign all 3 to fair market extensions. That's what should be done.

This sounds good until you assess the financial and practical viability.  If you sign Berrios/Buxton/Rodgers add in Maeda/Polanco/Kepler and $3M buyout for Sano you are close to $100M.  Therefore, what you are suggesting is that we put ourselves in a position where we need to replace Cruz / Pineda / Happ / Simmons and most of the BP with very little free agent budget.  At least not a budget that would allow for a top notch SP / accomplished RP or one of the good SS that will be available. This does not just apply to 2023.  Good FAs require multi year contracts so you cant bring them on in 22 either.

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32 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

What good can he do this year? They are 100% not making the playoffs. Also, if he's the secret sauce, what happened this year?

I’d like to keep him selfishly for the entertainment value. I’ll most likely forget about the A ball lottery ticket, unless they strike gold. And certainly not enjoy a bubble 40 man roster add more than Cruz’s plate appearances. 

You know what happened this year… Pitching massively regressed, mixed in with untimely hitting. Cruz has contributed more to a solution than a problem. 

That being said, it’s the right thing to do if he wants to chase a ring. I’m bracing for impact when the trade eventually happens… 

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3 minutes ago, Vanimal46 said:

I’d like to keep him selfishly for the entertainment value. I’ll most likely forget about the A ball lottery ticket, unless they strike gold. And certainly not enjoy a bubble 40 man roster add more than Cruz’s plate appearances. 

You know what happened this year… Pitching massively regressed, mixed in with untimely hitting. Cruz has contributed more to a solution than a problem. 

That being said, it’s the right thing to do if he wants to chase a ring. I’m bracing for impact when the trade eventually happens… 

I totally get the sentiment. I guess since I don't watch the games, but only on Gamecast and box scores, I'm more into the possibility of winning, than what I get out of watching ..... and I get that others disagree.

I just don't see how they add more prospects if they refuse to trade anyone that is entertaining to watch. And if they won't do that, I don't see how they build up the system so they either graduate more players, or trade prospects for MLB players.

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Where is the guarantee that dumping good players for a crap shoot is going to improve the team.

I will repeat, the good Twins of the sixties turned into the prospect laden, with a few veterans imported so they did not become bottom run every year, futility.

Dumping , or retiring, known quantities for -- maybe this guy can be as good as X we dumped or retired,-- is a good way to go back to a decade of disappointment.

It was 22 years from the Twins first World Series to their second; we are now 30 years past the last one, hmmm I wonder how many want to go through another decade of mediocrity hoping may in 2041 things will change.

In the Two Thousand aughts the Twins had a good team with a manager that was pathetic compared to Tom Kelly, as was/is Molitor and Baldelli, who could not even beat the Yankees ( it was 2002 the year Gardenhire took over that the pathetic string started)  in regular season, so you want to replace two years of -- Gee maybe this is the year -- with another eight years of -- well the Twins are rebuilding?

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Unless there are offers that overwhelm the Twins there should be great reluctance to trade any valuable/useful player. Colume, Happ, Shoemaker, Simmons - ok. Otherwise, play it out. The last thing the Twins need is more utility players or pitchers who might progress to become a decent bottom of the rotation member. 

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4 hours ago, RpR said:

Where is the guarantee that dumping good players for a crap shoot is going to improve the team.

I will repeat, the good Twins of the sixties turned into the prospect laden, with a few veterans imported so they did not become bottom run every year, futility.

Dumping , or retiring, known quantities for -- maybe this guy can be as good as X we dumped or retired,-- is a good way to go back to a decade of disappointment.

It was 22 years from the Twins first World Series to their second; we are now 30 years past the last one, hmmm I wonder how many want to go through another decade of mediocrity hoping may in 2041 things will change.

In the Two Thousand aughts the Twins had a good team with a manager that was pathetic compared to Tom Kelly, as was/is Molitor and Baldelli, who could not even beat the Yankees ( it was 2002 the year Gardenhire took over that the pathetic string started)  in regular season, so you want to replace two years of -- Gee maybe this is the year -- with another eight years of -- well the Twins are rebuilding?

I can’t tell if this is a joke. You take fliers on lottery tickets so you can win the lottery. You can’t win if you don’t play. Santana? Lottery ticket from the rule 5... Fernando Tatis? Lottery ticket in a salary dump. I can go on.

sure, getting rid of them makes the twins worse. But we aren’t going anywhere this year. Let’s better the organization as a whole. 

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6 hours ago, tony&rodney said:

Unless there are offers that overwhelm the Twins there should be great reluctance to trade any valuable/useful player. Colume, Happ, Shoemaker, Simmons - ok. Otherwise, play it out. The last thing the Twins need is more utility players or pitchers who might progress to become a decent bottom of the rotation member. 

So, what you are telling us is that all of the teams that trade away players on expiring contracts (and there are many) dont know what they are doing.  There much be a lot of incompetent people in baseball management.  I would go down the very long list of good players that were received in exchange for players on expiring contracts but I doubt the effort would influence you in the least.  

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1 hour ago, Major League Ready said:

So, what you are telling us is that all of the teams that trade away players on expiring contracts (and there are many) dont know what they are doing.  There much be a lot of incompetent people in baseball management.  I would go down the very long list of good players that were received in exchange for players on expiring contracts but I doubt the effort would influence you in the least.  

No, that is not my position. MLB is an entertainment industry. The Twins had high hopes this year. Stuff happens. The current state of baseball with the financial losses from last year and the expiring CBA makes for some uncertainty going forward. The Twins have a decent team right now but will not compete for the playoffs in 2021. A total rebuild would be tough for the general fan base. As mentioned, there are players that may and can be jettisoned for whatever wild cards are available. In that group I would include Shoemaker, Happ, Pineda, Colume, and Simmons. I'm not believing that trading Sano or Donaldson returns anything worth their potential production next year much less what they might provide in entertainment in the second half of this year. Trading Berios and Buxton should return major names but otherwise seems foolhardy given their talents. Kepler, Polanco, and Arraez? There may be great interest but again these players still hold more value to the Twins than to other teams. Cruz is a tough one. What would Cruz return? I'm liking Cruz in his current uniform, but if he has a preference to be moved to a contender then I would find a way to make that trade. The Twins will have options in the offseason and can still be an entertaining team in the second half of this season. The first half was filled with bad baseball, but I'm not ready for a rebuild. 

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I agree Tony & Rodney.  I'm not ready for a rebuild.  To some degree, I can accept this year as an aberration, Like the 1964 Twins.  1962 & 1963 were good years.  1964 they finished 7th despite some players having solid years.  1965-1970 they had ONE bad season (1968), all the rest were quite good.  So I'm not ready to throw in the towel on this team for 2022.  However, changes ARE needed.  The state of Minnesota "gifted" Target Field to the Pohlad's for the purpose of seeing a competitive baseball team.  The Twins are NOWHERE near a luxury tax threshold.  It's time to pony up the money and plug some holes.  They need a Rosenthal/Yates type of arm at the back end of the BP to pair with Rogers or just to take the closer spot if Rogers is dealt.  Cruz needs to be traded to a contender needing a bat.  Maybe they bring him back next year?  Cut bait on Sano.  Maybe you package him with Rogers in a deal ?  Simmons to Oakland makes sense--do it.  The most interesting trades I saw proposed came from another thread that involved Berrios and Rogers going to either the Dodgers or Padres for some serious talent coming back.  In either scenario, the money saved by sending those two out and the controllable assets coming back would allow the Twins to invest in plugging some of their obvious holes---like SS.  (Story or Baez)??  I've always liked Kepler.  But he's terribly frustrating to watch.  Lately he's been going opposite field with some ropes.  Is this a trend ?  I don't know.  But his Baseball Trade Value is about 34-35.  That's VALUE !  Some pitching rich team with a need for a LH OF bat would be a good match.  

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As an example, here is a trade that "works on paper" according to Baseball Trade Values:  Both have a value of 31.10

Yankees Get

Kepler  30.40

Bechtold  .70 (3B)

Twins Get:

Devi Garcia  14.80  SP

Vargas   14.50  (Minor League SS)

Clint Frazier  1.80  OF

 

The Yankees are loaded with minor league SS's in the 14-18 value range.  Garcia gives the Twins a young SP candidate and Frazier (who has been miserable this year but is better than Jake Cave) replaces Kepler in RF.

Would the Yankees do this ??  I have no idea.  But it shows that Kepler could bring something of interest back and with Kiriloff & Larnach he is superfluous.  We're not paying Kepler to be our 4th OF'er.  

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