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Is it time to eject pitchers for HBP?


What should MLB do about the HBP?  

52 members have voted

  1. 1. Should pitchers be ejected for hitting batters?

    • No, the HBP is part of baseball, even if the number continues to rise
      24
    • Yes, eject immediately, keep batters safe, and hopefully increase offense at the same time
      1
    • Eject the pitcher after two HBP in one appearance
      14
    • Eject the pitcher after two HBP in one inning
      4
    • Award the batter two bases for a HBP
      9


Just now, LVTwinsfan said:

Not all pitchers are cheating. I’m not defending those that do. If a store has a shoplifting problem they cannot search all their customers upon leaving the store to correct it. They have to work harder than that. Baseball has been lazy about this forever and they are being lazy now. Guilty until proven innocent is wrong in any situation. 

If almost all their customers are stealing......yes they should.  Especially if they know their department managers as actually facilitating the shoplifting by giving them tricks for how to avoid being caught.

Yeah, baseball was lazy and stupid in the past.  They deserve condemnation, but now the behavior has to stop.  The only way to know guilt, because of how slick these guys have become at this, is to do a quick inspection.  Just like taking drug tests or anything else that maintains fair play.  If you wait until you can somehow prove guilt all you really do is encourage more slick cheating.  Consistent enforcement and observation is the best way to stem the tide.  

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2 minutes ago, glunn said:

Perhaps all balls used in each game should be labeled with the name of the pitcher who threw them then tested in a laboratory after the game to look for banned substances?

There are many ideas I’m  sure that do not involve violating the rights of the innocent

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1 minute ago, TheLeviathan said:

Well with a sound counter-argument like that, including insults, how could I possibly disagree?  Strange to visit message boards and then be completely uninterested in discussions.

 

It is sound, it’s what is right, and anything that violates people’s rights is unsound and you know that 

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7 minutes ago, LVTwinsfan said:

There are many ideas I’m  sure that do not involve violating the rights of the innocent

You're becoming pretty hyperbolic here, man. There are no "rights" being violated. It's a baseball game where players are being inspected for cheating, not a civil rights violation.

Let's tone it down or we're going to have to start issuing warning points and/or close the thread.

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8 hours ago, LVTwinsfan said:

It’s kind of a flawed poll anyway. You still have almost 50% of Twins fans, just a few days after Buxton gets put on the IL after being hit by a pitch, saying no change. (hands you a lens wipe)

47.something percent say no change ... and the rest combined think something should be done. There is disagreement with what, but over 50% think there should be some kind of change.

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21 hours ago, JW24 said:

Pitchers don't use sticky stuff for the purpose of not hitting batters; they do it to make their stuff as nasty as possible so they can get to and remain in the big leagues. The excuse they use, to not hit batters, is eyewash for MLB to continue to look the other way on this issue.

Intent behind a HBP is pretty obvious. There are not a whole of instances where someone gets thrown at and you have to scratch your head as to if it was on purpose or not.

HBP is a part of the game. Not every negative action/result needs to come with punishment. It is awful Buxton is out again, but he was not hit purposefully.

Please, give me some credit, I'm aware of the spin-rate purpose. What I was describing was a situation in which a pitcher is  throwing the ball in exactly the same way but without the sticky stuff. He knows he's lacking the sticky stuff. He knows this takes away from his control. He still does it. That adds an element of conscious risk-taking. That was the point.

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17 hours ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

Right now the poll is split exactly down the middle between no change and increased penalties so I’m not sure how I’m in the minority. 

I'd also like to note that I voted before the two base option was added, and I would have voted for that instead on no change.

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17 hours ago, LVTwinsfan said:

Whatever other option you would choose besides not increasing the penalty would be a minority opinion, unless you claim all the other options.. The second most popular was eject the pitcher after 2 HBP’s, around 28%. That’s a minority

Is this an advertisement for why First Past the Poll voting sucks?

I mean it really does after all.

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19 hours ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

Come on, you know the pitcher has far more control over the ball than a hitter does. It’s a bad comparison.

BTW, out of curiosity I looked up deGrom’s HBP numbers. They’re basically non-existent and he’s the hardest throwing, best pitcher in baseball. Just one data point to show “easy” or “natural” velocity isn’t linked to wildness. deGrom is the best pitcher on the planet and topped out at 7 HBP in a season in 2018 (none so far in 2021). 

I agree with the deGrom point on natural velocity. It also brings up the issue of unnatural velocity. Right now Baseball seems to be collapsing unto itself. A couple years ago MLB used MaxFlite balls for at least one year. This simply enhanced the trend towards all or nothing swings, which were themselves enhanced by improved training methods. Pitchers, already being graded on velocity had to overthrow in an attempt to pick up a notch on the gun. Anyone who has thrown a ball knows the harder the effort expended, the lower the accuracy. The whole thing is basically a dog chasing it’s tail. As for Buxton in particular, it is a shame. But I don’t think it was intentional, nor do I think there should be an automatic ejection. The game is doing a good job of ruining  itself. We don’t need to help it! 

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On 6/22/2021 at 9:56 AM, Twodogs said:

First question is I wonder why there were so many hit batters in the late 90's early 2000's??  I wonder if some of it has to do with hitter's approaches?  I mean this is a little radical, but remember how close to the plate Barry Bonds used to stand?  Is there something that the hitters are doing differently that is not allowing them to get out of the way?  These are just things that cross my mind first before I start blaming pitchers for hitting batters. 

 

Maybe the hitters need to use more equipment, again I'll refer to Barry Bonds, he was well protected when he stepped into the box.  

 

I mean ejected for hitting a batter?  What if the ball hits the dirt and then hits the batter?  How many times have we seen a batter take 1B after having his uniform grazed, I mean it's a little ridiculous to me to think that a player can get ejected because he hit the batter?  Should we eject all hitters who hit the pitchers with line drives?  I mean I'm sure occasionally some of them want to hit that pitcher, but most of them are just doing what they are taught and driving the ball back up the middle, but I mean hey, if a pitcher gets ejected for hitting a batter then I think the batters should get ejected for hitting the pitchers too? 

 

I think most times you can tell when someone is intending to bean someone as opposed to an inside pitch getting away from him, I mean I have seen numerous occasions where a ball could have been called a strike and yet hit the batter.  So I think the hitters take on some of the responsibility as to where they stand in the box and how they load up and swing nowadays so as to not be able to get out of the way.  

 

Sucks about Buxton, but I know if I were playing I would be loaded up with body armor just like Barry Bonds was and less injuries would happen.

I remember Tom Kelly being asked what can be done to decrease hit batters. His answer was to eliminate the use of all the padding that hitters wear now. He explained that batters stay in the box longer and lean over the plate more because they are not afraid to be hit. I have no idea if that would work, but at a minimum it would open up the inner half of the plate. I will yield to TK as knowing more about baseball than pretty much all of us.

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54 minutes ago, RiddarCarpo said:

Please, give me some credit, I'm aware of the spin-rate purpose. What I was describing was a situation in which a pitcher is  throwing the ball in exactly the same way but without the sticky stuff. He knows he's lacking the sticky stuff. He knows this takes away from his control. He still does it. That adds an element of conscious risk-taking. That was the point.

I appreciate the point you are making, but I don't agree with the premise of throwing without sticky stuff being either negligent or riskier. Sticky stuff does not contribute to commanding a pitch as much as it does to making each pitch play up with increased spin. If sticky stuff resulted in better command, the HBP numbers would be declining, and as previous posters in this thread have shown, that just is not really the case.

One impact I see to outlawing the sticky substances is that the late breaking, super sharp sliders and curveballs likely flatten out a little bit without the extra grip, which theoretically would allow hitters to distinguish between pitches sooner and might allow them to better protect themselves. I would not be surprised to see banning everything except rosin actually reducing HBPs as the ball will act less like a blitzball and more like a baseball again.

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11 minutes ago, JW24 said:

I appreciate the point you are making, but I don't agree with the premise of throwing without sticky stuff being either negligent or riskier. Sticky stuff does not contribute to commanding a pitch as much as it does to making each pitch play up with increased spin. If sticky stuff resulted in better command, the HBP numbers would be declining, and as previous posters in this thread have shown, that just is not really the case.

One impact I see to outlawing the sticky substances is that the late breaking, super sharp sliders and curveballs likely flatten out a little bit without the extra grip, which theoretically would allow hitters to distinguish between pitches sooner and might allow them to better protect themselves. I would not be surprised to see banning everything except rosin actually reducing HBPs as the ball will act less like a blitzball and more like a baseball again.

Fair enough. I was thinking more specifically about the different Fastball iterations, but pitchers will likely adapt by releasing a wee bit earlier.

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My vote is 2 bases. Make it costly to hit a Batter and Pitchers will be less inclined to try it. To be even more precise, I would propose a "Graze of the Jersey" or a bounced pitch to be 1 base but if the ball legit hits a player with force, 2 bases. I feel like the velocity craze is ruining a lot. Focus a bit more on control and maybe good things would happen. 

 

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2 hours ago, RelentlessHooah said:

My vote is 2 bases. Make it costly to hit a Batter and Pitchers will be less inclined to try it. To be even more precise, I would propose a "Graze of the Jersey" or a bounced pitch to be 1 base but if the ball legit hits a player with force, 2 bases. I feel like the velocity craze is ruining a lot. Focus a bit more on control and maybe good things would happen. 

 

Idk, if a ball bounces and the batter is hit, it feels that they probably didn't make an effort to avoid it and a HBP should not be awarded.

Ump should call a ball.

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On 6/23/2021 at 1:06 PM, LVTwinsfan said:

Really? What about a line drive that’s hits a pitcher, shouldn’t the batter be punished because there’s an injury involved, or when a batters follow through hits the catcher? It’s all part of the game, players will get injured

Well, I'm saying pitching inside recklessly to hit a batter is not part of today's game. They found this to also be true of slamming into the catcher at Home and into the infielder at Second Base to break up a double play. The Pitcher does not bat.....so where is the chance for retaliation and self-policing this kind of thing?? Nowhere....

I guess what I needed to say - is that in Today's game, play that is intentionally risky and turns very negative, like pitching inside full well knowing you can take out a batter for the season...is frowned on. That's the trend , So why not this?? It's coming.  The pitcher has control of that to a necessary and needed extent. A batted ball hitting a pitcher...no, the control is somewhat there [taking the pitch up the middle], but not to the needed extent to punish the batter. That is part of the game.

A batter's follow through that hits the catcher can be avoided, and just may be next. 

The main point is...all the new steps and new rules sports have to prevent injuries Today are unprecedented. They had none of this in the past. They were all part of the game. Players play and injuries happen. Not the case anymore. So with all these new precedents being set to protect players.....should that pitcher be able to just walk back into the dugout after the innings is over after he beans a player to a season ending injury? It doesn't fit all the other rules that are in place to prevent injuries.

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