Jump to content
  • Create Account

Who gets fired for this?


POLL: Who should be fired first?  

51 members have voted

  1. 1. The season is lost. 22-33 and we only went 5-4 against some the worst teams in the league. It’s done. Who do you think should be held most accountable for this?

    • The players, who are playing well below their talent level
    • The Front Office, who has shown an inability to develop pitching
    • Rocco Baldelli, who has made a multitude of questionable decisions
    • The other coaches and trainers on the staff, who are seemingly behind this team’s bad play
    • Nobody

This poll is closed to new votes

  • Please sign in or register to vote in this poll.
  • Poll closed on 06/06/2021 at 11:15 AM

I am still in the fire Rocco camp as you can't fire the players.  (all of them).  

As far as pitching, we don't know yet as it takes a fair number of years before changes show up, will be much more concerned if we can't develop pitching two years from now.  We might as well trade, let a fair number of veteran pitchers go to see what the kids do.

We still have the issue I have noted elsewhere with Berrios and buxton.  You either have to extend them or trade them this midseason to get maximum value and I will not give the front office a pass if they do neither.  That is a Pohlad decision as it involves money, but both should be able to bring top 100 prospects (in Buxton's case maybe multiple) in return.  Pineda is another player you have to make a decision with (I am more with the resigning than trading).  A lot of these factors all play together.  

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Replies 76
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Posts

This fascination with someone to blame is an interesting phenomena ..... there may or may not be someone to blame, but this idea that firing a person or two will fix things is really interesting. They

Doesn't someone need to be held accountable for the lackadaisical play?  The errors? The mental breakdowns? The terrible at bats? The inability to manufacture runs? On and on.

Nobody to "fire" but plenty of players should be in different uniforms by the end of the year.  Things started poorly, injuries have managed to continue to get worse, and we're too far behind. Ti

Posted Images

No one should be fired if the only reason for doing so is the idea that someone has to be fired. If anyone has consistently failed to perform up to reasonable expectations, then yes. And keep in mind that it's easy to fire someone. It is far more difficult and far more important to find someone significantly better to take the role of the person who was let go. And that should be done before the firing takes place.

Link to post
Share on other sites

How come so many hamstring and groin injuries?  I don't know the cause or what could be done to decrease the chances of these happening.  Are they just a bunch of softies?  Many demanding sports have strength and conditioning regimes to prevent injuries.  It is hard to compare sports and different areas of chronic injury.  I would have to go with partial blame going to the training staff.  Hard to bench anyone right now but many times I used to wonder why they kept trotting B Dozier out when he was in one of his long slumps.  If they had to play for their spot the under achievers my up their game?  it is such a mess right now there is not one clear path of blame.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I think it's time for the FO to realize that guys like Sano will never be more than what he is.  Move him for a bag of baseballs.  Max Kepler has probably played himself into a trade as well.  With Kiriloff and Larnach basically "up" now, Max hasn't demonstrated that he's superior to either, and that's saying a lot about a guy who clubbed 36 HR's in 2019.  They need a new SS and since I don't think Lewis will be the answer (CF is where he'll end up) the FO needs to make a big signing from the stacked FA market for SS next year.  I expect Pineda, Cruz, and possibly Buxton to be dealt at the deadline.  Shake things up.  This group never got over the hump of winning a playoff game.

Link to post
Share on other sites
19 hours ago, Mike Sixel said:

This fascination with someone to blame is an interesting phenomena ..... there may or may not be someone to blame, but this idea that firing a person or two will fix things is really interesting. They won the division two years in a row....maybe that tells us something too....maybe this year is just a bad year, where everything goes wrong and unlucky and there is no fault or reason other than stuff happens. Most things in life don't have A cause, or meaning. They just are. Our human need for their to be a reason for things happening is really interesting to me.

Stop bringing up the Division titles as an excuse! 2020 is tossed out the windows when it was not even close to a normal year and they played 75% of their games against the crappy AL Central. 2019 was juiced ball / career year. Both exceptions to the rules, not the rules them selves. This team was never going to be as good as 2019. The weaknesses this team had were exposed in the 2019 play off series. That was the real form of this team against good teams when it comes down to win and in. You need to get those "titles" out of your head. 18 play off loses in a row. Thats what should be bouncing around in your head. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree.  They are LOSERS even when they win the ALC and go one and done in the play-offs.  I would consider them winners if and only if they won the League and played in the WS.  The time they won the one game playoff made the season look like a success and all they got was another game.

Link to post
Share on other sites

No doubt underperformance and injuries have played a role in this trash heap, but let's not overlook failure of leadership, starting at the top.  The Pohlads have never set a public goal that winning a championship is their number one mission.  Their bankers mentality of not encouraging more risk-taking,  especially when faced with a wide-open window, has contributed to this state of lethargy that has extended to the FO, manager, coaches and even the players.  As a result we have lost 19 straight playoff losses without much of a whimper.

In the earlier days of this franchise, when Carl was running the show, at least he was smart enough to leave running the day-to-day decisions to a professional baseball man like Andy MacPhail, who in turn hired a demanding, no-nonsense manager in Tom Kelly.  Can you imagine Kelly putting up with stream of miscues, lacksadaisical effort, and general softness?  Unfortunately, Carl's son stayed loyal to Ryan for far too long, refused to increase the budget in the aughts when the team was once again competitive, thus settling into a comfortable state of getting to the playoffs and then folding.  Only the disaster of 2016 resulted in Ryan's sacking and the hiring of Falvey.

While many on this site say 4+ years is insufficient time to judge the new regime's effectiveness, someone has to be held accountable for this dispiriting season.  Falvine and co. have failed to develop even one relief pitcher in their tenure.  Not one!  How long should it take to draft and develop a strong bullpen arm.  This failure to develop pitching can be attributed to poor drafting(was lewis a better choice than McKay or other top college pitchers that year?).  Why have they concentrated on position players rather than pitching with their #1 picks?  And we won't even go into their dumpster diving for the bullpen, which this year, has helped lead to a serious regression in the bullpen - an occurrence clearly most responsible for their collapse.

In summary, there has to be accountability.  Someone(s) has to take the fall and dumping under-performing veterans will not be enough to right the ship.  Falvey talks a good story but has simply not delivered.  If Pohlad cannot pull the plug, he needs to find a buyer who will.  This Minnesota nice has got to end if we ever again will have a legitimate chance a a WS trophy.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

I would not fire anybody without having more information.

If I were in charge, I would approach everybody individually and ask each of them to give me a 30-60-90 day plan for how each of them will improve the performance of the organization.  This includes the front office, the coaches, the players, etc., anyone who has been on the field or contributed to putting players on the field and strategy.

With that in hand, I can analyze several things.

  1. Does this person seem to understand the problem?
  2. Is this person willing to work on themselves, and, more importantly, help and support others?

Provide plenty of coaching to the employee so they understand this ask.  If a high performing person believes the issue is with the bullpen, for example, and not himself/herself, that's ok.  What matters is how this person intends to contribute to helping either fix the issue or fix the culture.

I think we can all make pretty good guesses for a couple of people who would not respond well to being given this task.  These players would be on the short list to go should this prediction be proven true.

It may sound like a cliché, but culture is everything.  From organizations to small teams to projects, top tier success is due to culture.  Effort and positive attitude don't happen if the culture is shot.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, TopGunn#22 said:

I think it's time for the FO to realize that guys like Sano will never be more than what he is.  Move him for a bag of baseballs.  Max Kepler has probably played himself into a trade as well.  With Kiriloff and Larnach basically "up" now, Max hasn't demonstrated that he's superior to either, and that's saying a lot about a guy who clubbed 36 HR's in 2019.  They need a new SS and since I don't think Lewis will be the answer (CF is where he'll end up) the FO needs to make a big signing from the stacked FA market for SS next year.  I expect Pineda, Cruz, and possibly Buxton to be dealt at the deadline.  Shake things up.  This group never got over the hump of winning a playoff game.

Is there a team that would anyone take Sano the way he is going right now?  Even if the Twins ate much of his salary, I think he is untradeable unless he gets it together.  Maybe I am wrong and there is a team that thinks a change of scenery will help.

Kepler might be our CF next year and he also provides value as a reasonable CF back-up.  I just don't know what to think about Lewis in terms of where he plays.  It seemed like the team was very happy with his progress at SS but who knows of that was lip service.  I just don't think we have enough information to conclude where he plays with any confidence.  Will has bat ever play?  It looked bleak until the AZ fall league but that's a sss.

Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, Major League Ready said:

Is there a team that would anyone take Sano the way he is going right now?  

I think so.  He has too much upside.

The concern to a new team would be ... is Sano terrible this season because he is injured?  A full physical and interviews with the Twins medical staff would answer that question.  If he isn't injured, its the circumstances, which can be improved.

Even the biggest skeptic of Sano can picture him smacking grand slams in the playoffs and in the world series.  Unlike with David Ortiz, there would be no sour grapes in Twins Territory with watching Sano do this in some other uniform (unless it's with the White Sox, of course).  

The long-term question with a team taking on Sano would be ... can they weather his drama?  Some teams surely think they can, or they think his drama isn't a concern.

My opinion is that the Twins organization is not a fit for Sano.  This is in no way representative of his abilities.  He can and will have great moments in the future.  I'd rather the Twins find someone with a more stable bat and better defense.  .800 OPS is .800 OPS, whether you get there via 35 home runs and 200 strikeouts or 20 home runs and 50 strikeouts.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, KFEY93 said:

Stop bringing up the Division titles as an excuse! 2020 is tossed out the windows when it was not even close to a normal year and they played 75% of their games against the crappy AL Central. 2019 was juiced ball / career year. Both exceptions to the rules, not the rules them selves. This team was never going to be as good as 2019. The weaknesses this team had were exposed in the 2019 play off series. That was the real form of this team against good teams when it comes down to win and in. You need to get those "titles" out of your head. 18 play off loses in a row. Thats what should be bouncing around in your head. 

Every other team in baseball also played 2020 under the same circumstances.  Same with 2019.  The division titles are legitimate whether you like it or not.  And that's what'll keep Rocco and the FO in their positions.  You can't ignore two seasons worth of results and look at two months as the rule, even if the good results were flawed.  They were still the results despite the flaws.

This is coming from a guy that takes nothing out of the 2020 season, couldn't care less about division titles, has his quibbles with Rocco and the FO, and has been on the record as saying that the 2019 team was flawed and wouldn't stack up well in the playoffs in 2019 or 2020.  The Polhad's have shown patience throughout the years, so there's nothing to suggest that they'd suddenly become knee-jerk reactors based on two months.  The playoff loses should come into play, but Rocco has only been here for 4 of them and the FO 5.  Yes, they need to do better.  And they're likely to get that opportunity because they're coming off of back to back division titles.

Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, Dodecahedron said:

I think so.  He has too much upside.

The concern to a new team would be ... is Sano terrible this season because he is injured?  A full physical and interviews with the Twins medical staff would answer that question.  If he isn't injured, its the circumstances, which can be improved.

Even the biggest skeptic of Sano can picture him smacking grand slams in the playoffs and in the world series.  Unlike with David Ortiz, there would be no sour grapes in Twins Territory with watching Sano do this in some other uniform (unless it's with the White Sox, of course).  

The long-term question with a team taking on Sano would be ... can they weather his drama?  Some teams surely think they can, or they think his drama isn't a concern.

My opinion is that the Twins organization is not a fit for Sano.  This is in no way representative of his abilities.  He can and will have great moments in the future.  I'd rather the Twins find someone with a more stable bat and better defense.  .800 OPS is .800 OPS, whether you get there via 35 home runs and 200 strikeouts or 20 home runs and 50 strikeouts.

 

Agree with this analysis - but if we trade Sano this summer we are dense unless he catches fire fast. Selling low is always a bad idea. Now would be selling low. There are teams out there who have been drooling over Sano for years. Let him catch holy fire for 4 weeks, and then trade him. If he doesn't catch fire this year, you are stuck with him. Count him as another one we should have traded when he looked like a future HOF'er. Could have gotten a ton for Gordon 4 years ago - everyone wanted Kepler 2 years ago. What would Tampa do said a wise poster the other day 😀

Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, AceWrigley said:

Doesn't someone need to be held accountable for the lackadaisical play?  The errors? The mental breakdowns? The terrible at bats? The inability to manufacture runs? On and on.

Exactly, someone does.  No way a Tom Kelly coached team or looking externally a Ned Yost team would be performing like this.  And there were several years both of those coaches had low levels of talent and their teams weren't playing like this.  

Link to post
Share on other sites
22 minutes ago, heresthething said:

Exactly, someone does.  No way a Tom Kelly coached team or looking externally a Ned Yost team would be performing like this.  And there were several years both of those coaches had low levels of talent and their teams weren't playing like this.  

What? I have as much respect for Tom Kelly's two World Series titles as the next poster, but let's not pretend that there weren't some bad players on bad teams playing badly. Tom Kelly did oversee a stretch of years so bad that the team was nearly contracted.

Link to post
Share on other sites
51 minutes ago, TheBoofIsLoose said:

What? I have as much respect for Tom Kelly's two World Series titles as the next poster, but let's not pretend that there weren't some bad players on bad teams playing badly. Tom Kelly did oversee a stretch of years so bad that the team was nearly contracted.

Yeah, but those 100 loss teams were super fundamentally sound!

Link to post
Share on other sites

I think Levine should go. He's made a lot of bad decisions over the years. 

I'm worried about the pitching philosophy of this team. It seems like we want starters to only go through the opposing lineup twice, then turn it over to the bullpen. Ignoring Berrios, the other four starters have pitched more than 6 innings only three times in 38 starts. They've thrown 100 or more pitches in a start only 5x. We are way to reliant on a really bad bullpen. And if our minor league arms are being treated the same way, this could become an institutional problem. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
53 minutes ago, TheBoofIsLoose said:

What? I have as much respect for Tom Kelly's two World Series titles as the next poster, but let's not pretend that there weren't some bad players on bad teams playing badly. Tom Kelly did oversee a stretch of years so bad that the team was nearly contracted.

I can only imagine what a Twins forum would have looked like during the second half of Dick Such's tenure as pitching coach (1993-2000).

Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, gunnarthor said:

I think Levine should go. He's made a lot of bad decisions over the years. 

I'm worried about the pitching philosophy of this team. It seems like we want starters to only go through the opposing lineup twice, then turn it over to the bullpen. Ignoring Berrios, the other four starters have pitched more than 6 innings only three times in 38 starts. They've thrown 100 or more pitches in a start only 5x. We are way to reliant on a really bad bullpen. And if our minor league arms are being treated the same way, this could become an institutional problem. 

You missed Dobnak giving up 3 hits but failing to retire a batter in the 7th last week. So 6 times total including Berrios:
https://www.fangraphs.com/leaders/splits-leaderboards?splitArr=42,50,171&splitArrPitch=&position=P&autoPt=false&splitTeams=false&statType=player&statgroup=1&startDate=2021-03-01&endDate=2021-11-01&players=&filter=&groupBy=season&sort=-1,1

image.png.5076a03db5efafee063d206b0815e6e2.png

That is the 3rd fewest among MLB teams:
https://www.fangraphs.com/leaders/splits-leaderboards?splitArr=42,50&splitArrPitch=&position=P&autoPt=false&splitTeams=false&statType=team&statgroup=1&startDate=2021-03-01&endDate=2021-11-01&players=&filter=&groupBy=season&sort=2,1

image.png.b792f04c8d220038fd1bf93139b398b7.png

But maybe the hook isn't the problem, as much as the poor SP and RP performance? It's not like we want to see more innings out of most of these starters right now. The front office would bear responsibility for that too, although they did appear to assemble effective rotations and pens in 2019-2020.

Link to post
Share on other sites

It seems like it would be satisfying to come in and fire everybody when things aren't going right, but it's not.

I worked somewhere where a certain division was not performing.  Somehow, someone near the top of the organization successfully sold the idea of firing the entire division.  Many of the workers were very smart and competent, and they were doing what they had been told to do.  Only certain managers should have been fired.  (The person who made this decision then hired friends of his to run the new division.  Unsurprisingly, him and everyone he hired were gone within a year.)

Some people say that you never know how valuable someone is until you fire them.  This is an oversimplification, but there is a  kernel of truth behind it.  Letting people go for performance reasons should be surgical, and it should be the last resort.  The first step to dealing with a manager making mistakes is not to fire them after they fail.  

The situation with players is different.  Players can't be "fired."  Constructing rosters is an artform, as is building a winning culture.  At least 20% of every leader's time should go into keeping culture and relationships healthy and fed.  If the white-collar brass are not doing this, that's where they need to start.

Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, KFEY93 said:

Stop bringing up the Division titles as an excuse! 2020 is tossed out the windows when it was not even close to a normal year and they played 75% of their games against the crappy AL Central. 2019 was juiced ball / career year. Both exceptions to the rules, not the rules them selves. This team was never going to be as good as 2019. The weaknesses this team had were exposed in the 2019 play off series. That was the real form of this team against good teams when it comes down to win and in. You need to get those "titles" out of your head. 18 play off loses in a row. Thats what should be bouncing around in your head. 

So the argument here is that 222 games of data should be ignored in favor of 18? And not 18 recent games, but 18 games spread out over 20 years? Maybe you should get the early 2000s playoff losses out of your head. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...

×
×
  • Create New...