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What is the biggest problem with this Twins team?


Message added by Squirrel,

I'm going to interject a mod warning as some posts are leaving the realm of true discussion ... be careful about calling players whiny and lazy. It is disrespectful. And so is referring to the FO as clowns. Yes, our frustration is high, and yes, some players are just not playing up to expectations for a number of reasons, and yes, I wish, I wish, I wsh. But when you are drawing conclusions, please include your evidence. If you are just giving an opinion, be careful not to cross the line into disrespectfulness. Thanks, and carry on. Respectfully. So characterizing players to suit your narrative and stop name calling.

The Twins are LAST in pitching WAR (look at team stats).....27th in pitching win probability added.....

This is what happens when you don't develop pitching, and sign Happ and Shoemaker to be in your rotation. The strategy of one to two year rentals every year is hard to pull off. Hopefully the pitching pipeline starts to produce, or the coming years will look a lot like this year (win loss wise).

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It's time to be blunt.  The biggest problem with this Twins team is they suck, which causes them to lose too often.

They suck at doing many things, if not most things.  All things top to bottom?  Maybe.  

I would offer this to many on the team and in the organization:  If they don't want to play baseball, they can quit.  Nothing is handed to any of us in this world.  I'm not sure what one could say to motivate a bunch of yobs who think baseball is too tough of a job to put enough work in to succeed other than, "Goodbye."  Too harsh?  Not really.  We all have tough jobs, and the reality is we all will be forced to hit the pavement if we do not perform.  The difference is we don't get to travel and eat catered food.  Who here got to travel in the past year?

We all know this Twins team has ample talent to hold its own in the MLB, yet they are not stepping up.  This is like watching Les Steckel's Vikings team, where the players just want it all to be over.  It's the Yankees playoff games all year long.  If the Twins players are unhappy about something, there are better ways to deal with it than dragging their feet through life.  This is a moral question -- do you work hard when things are tough, or do you give up when something does not go your way?  Snap out of it, fellas, these are your lives.  Being miserable by choice is always the wrong choice.

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Partial from Dodecahedron......"We all know this Twins team has ample talent to hold its own in the MLB, yet they are not stepping up......"

And this talent is comprised of exactly which players? I watched most of the entire Os series because I get MASN in my market which  carries the Os. The only established upper tier MLB player on the roster is Donaldson and he is still in the journeyman category who plays MLB level defense (as long as the shift isn't on) and has power( POTENTIAL). Name one other playoff winning talent on the entire roster. Polanco? Sano? Street clothes Buxton? (I am stealing Charles Barkley's perfect term for Anthony Davis with the Lakers who basically stays injured. So Street clothes Buxton it is). I am waiting. I bet less than 1% of Twins' fans could name last nights starting roster. By the way, Sano's grace period is over. Last nights ph appearance was pathetic to put it mildly.

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8 minutes ago, Number3 said:

Partial from Dodecahedron......"We all know this Twins team has ample talent to hold its own in the MLB, yet they are not stepping up......"

And this talent is comprised of exactly which players? I watched most of the entire Os series because I get MASN in my market which  carries the Os. The only established upper tier MLB player on the roster is Donaldson and he is still in the journeyman category who plays MLB level defense (as long as the shift isn't on) and has power( POTENTIAL). Name one other playoff winning talent on the entire roster. Polanco? Sano? Street clothes Buxton? (I am steeling Charles Barkley's perfect term for Anthony Davis with the Lakers who basically stays injured. So Street clothes Buxton it is). I am waiting. I bet less than 1% of Twins' fans could name last nights starting roster. By the way, Sano's grace period is over. Last nights ph appearance was pathetic to put it mildly.

You made a big leap there.  I said the players can "hold [their] own" not that they are "upper tier MLB players" with "playoff winning talent" as you said.

This team should be around .500.  Their current record is because they are not putting in the work.

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42 minutes ago, Dodecahedron said:

You made a big leap there.  I said the players can "hold [their] own" not that they are "upper tier MLB players" with "playoff winning talent" as you said.

This team should be around .500.  Their current record is because they are not putting in the work.

Do you have any evidence for any of your claims about their work habits or desires? Any at all? These guys worked their whole lives to get where they are, so I have plenty on a side that says you have the burden of proof.....let's see it.

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3 hours ago, Mike Sixel said:

Do you have any evidence for any of your claims about their work habits or desires? Any at all? These guys worked their whole lives to get where they are, so I have plenty on a side that says you have the burden of proof.....let's see it.

Nah, bruh, I'm not gonna do that.  But I can use what you said against you.  No one is denying they worked their whole lives.  There is evidence in 2019 that they had not "rose to their level of incompetence" if you believe in that.  Barring incompetence, which seems unlikely, we all see talent on this team, we are left with either being whiny or lazy.  Take your pick. 

You may believe you have a mountain of evidence proving that they are not lazy.  I would say I have a mountain of evidence proving they are not incompetent.  Which seems more likely?  They never were competent, their muscle memory got amnesia, or they are not playing to their potential (they're lazy)?  Seems like I gave them the most credit with my analysis, no?

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1 minute ago, Dodecahedron said:

Nah, bruh, I'm not gonna do that.  But I can use what you said against you.  No one is denying they worked their whole lives.  There is evidence in 2019 that they had not "rose to their level of incompetence" if you believe in that.  Barring incompetence, which seems unlikely, we all see talent on this team, we are left with either being whiny or lazy.  Take your pick. 

We aren't left with whiny or lazy as our only choices at all....not even close. 

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Just now, Dodecahedron said:

What are some alternatives?  

Bad luck. Several players playing partially hurt. Players declining. Players reverting to a lower level of play for an unknown reason. Some of the players aren't good compared to other MLB players. Some bad decisions. But lazy? I don't believe that for one second. You can. Feel free. Try to remember these are people....

heck, maybe they do get discouraged and down, and that effects their performance.....but not lazy. Or whiny.

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35 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

Bad luck. Several players playing partially hurt. Players declining. Players reverting to a lower level of play for an unknown reason. Some of the players aren't good compared to other MLB players. Some bad decisions. But lazy? I don't believe that for one second. You can. Feel free. Try to remember these are people....

heck, maybe they do get discouraged and down, and that effects their performance.....but not lazy. Or whiny.

Sure.  But doesn't it get boring to talk about luck?  Or maybe being hurt?  Or maybe declining?  These are all shadows on the wall, none of these statements are meaningful.

The players on this team are not performing as they have shown they are able.  People who are on the IL are obviously injured and there is nothing the Twins can do about that.  But for the rest of them, "I'm just unlucky" or "I'm declining" and especially "I'm hurt" are not viable excuses. 

This team is not full of 35 year olds or something, "a team in decline" is just not reality. 

Luck?  Come on.  Why train for a lifetime if it just comes down to luck?  That's not reality.  Skills beat luck.  Effort beats luck.

When you decline, you work harder.
When your luck is down, you pick it up the next day and try again.
When you're hurt, you tell people.

What you don't do is stop playing defense and start swinging at anything thrown at you.  That's lazy.

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36 minutes ago, Dodecahedron said:

Sure.  But doesn't it get boring to talk about luck?  Or maybe being hurt?  Or maybe declining?  These are all shadows on the wall, none of these statements are meaningful.

The players on this team are not performing as they have shown they are able.  People who are on the IL are obviously injured and there is nothing the Twins can do about that.  But for the rest of them, "I'm just unlucky" or "I'm declining" and especially "I'm hurt" are not viable excuses. 

This team is not full of 35 year olds or something, "a team in decline" is just not reality. 

Luck?  Come on.  Why train for a lifetime if it just comes down to luck?  That's not reality.  Skills beat luck.  Effort beats luck.

When you decline, you work harder.
When your luck is down, you pick it up the next day and try again.
When you're hurt, you tell people.

What you don't do is stop playing defense and start swinging at anything thrown at you.  That's lazy.

It's not nearly that simple.  Mike asked you for evidence.  You have nothing but conjecture and convenient conjecture at that.  Are they lazy and not putting in the work.  I have no idea and neither do you.  What we do know is the are many very good players that have bad years.  We have one guy (Cruz) who age might have finally caught up with.

How does telling anyone about injuries change the fact we have several key players out.  Maeda went from a Cy Young finalist to hurt and non-productive.  Taylor Rodgers has lost his way.  Just when it looked like Duffy could be counted on he has regressed.  Buxton was playing at an elite level, he's out.  Garver just started crushing it and he is out.  We need Kepler to BU CF, he's out.  Donaldson is the kind of big acquisition many clamored for the team to make.  Well, it looks like we got him just in time for his decline.

We lost a lot of key coaches.  Is that the problem?  Again, I am not nearly close enough to the situation to offer an informed opinion.  However, If I were Falvey and Lavine, I would be evaluating the coaching staff.

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1 hour ago, Dodecahedron said:

Sure.  But doesn't it get boring to talk about luck?  Or maybe being hurt?  Or maybe declining?  These are all shadows on the wall, none of these statements are meaningful.

The players on this team are not performing as they have shown they are able.  People who are on the IL are obviously injured and there is nothing the Twins can do about that.  But for the rest of them, "I'm just unlucky" or "I'm declining" and especially "I'm hurt" are not viable excuses. 

This team is not full of 35 year olds or something, "a team in decline" is just not reality. 

Luck?  Come on.  Why train for a lifetime if it just comes down to luck?  That's not reality.  Skills beat luck.  Effort beats luck.

When you decline, you work harder.
When your luck is down, you pick it up the next day and try again.
When you're hurt, you tell people.

What you don't do is stop playing defense and start swinging at anything thrown at you.  That's lazy.

If you don't think there is any luck in sports (or life), we don't agree on that. The world is filled with almosts and nearlies. 

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For the 2022 season. I hope the FO does not attempt to bring back any of the free agents signed this year.  I also think Duffy should not be offered arbitration. 

Kirilloff/Garver share duties at 1st/DH(this might help Garver focus more on offense, it's always tough on any catcher).  Donaldson at 3rd.  Combination of Lewis/Polanco/Arraez/Gordon at 2nd/SS/3rd backup.  Kepler/Buxton/Larnach in the outfield.  Jeffers catches with some combination of Austudillo/Garver/Rortdvet as back-ups.   Pitching staff: Maeda, Berrios, re-sign big Mike, a(legitimate/decent) starter by trade or free agent, Dobnak, Rogers, Alcala, Balazovic, Duran(starter or reliever), Thorpe(starter or reliever),  Colina, 2 QUALITY relievers via trade or FA, maybe Stashak, if he gets it together.  Need a 4th outfielder(Gordon/Arraez?).  Take a flyer on ONE retread reliever, or do what we always do, bring in a number of them and see if it sticks, but only ONE spot on the opening day roster for someone like that. 

I know that wouldn't be the perfect team(middle infield defense, inexperience, etc...), but I, for one, would be excited to see how they do.  I don't think the Twins need to spend alot of money on position players(other than arbitration for Buxton).  Think what the FO could have done with the $23.5m for Simmons and Cruz, if they spent it on pitching? 

That leaves Sano, who is owed 9.75 million next season.

Spend the same/a bit more on  FA's, but only 3-4 bodies and go for higher quality(all pitching).  Fill in the rest using the farm system.

It's either something like that or gut the whole thing and start over completely.  Unless the payroll is increased to 150-160 million.

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3 hours ago, Dodecahedron said:

Sure.  But doesn't it get boring to talk about luck?  Or maybe being hurt?  Or maybe declining?  These are all shadows on the wall, none of these statements are meaningful.

The players on this team are not performing as they have shown they are able.  People who are on the IL are obviously injured and there is nothing the Twins can do about that.  But for the rest of them, "I'm just unlucky" or "I'm declining" and especially "I'm hurt" are not viable excuses. 

This team is not full of 35 year olds or something, "a team in decline" is just not reality. 

Luck?  Come on.  Why train for a lifetime if it just comes down to luck?  That's not reality.  Skills beat luck.  Effort beats luck.

When you decline, you work harder.
When your luck is down, you pick it up the next day and try again.
When you're hurt, you tell people.

What you don't do is stop playing defense and start swinging at anything thrown at you.  That's lazy.

This is an impressive combination of fallacies and bumper sticker logic in service of a self-evidently silly premise.

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Pretty hard to get the work in when they have had about 1 day off in the past month and a half. The lineup is the problem. The talent level has been decimated since the '19 season and that is all on the bean counters and suit and tie (excuse me golf attire) clowns in the non playing jobs. They have assembled a cast of no names , and underachievers. Berrios is the sole player on the roster who puts the Twins in the "should win" category and that is every 5 games.

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8 hours ago, Number3 said:

Pretty hard to get the work in when they have had about 1 day off in the past month and a half. The lineup is the problem. The talent level has been decimated since the '19 season and that is all on the bean counters and suit and tie (excuse me golf attire) clowns in the non playing jobs. They have assembled a cast of no names , and underachievers. Berrios is the sole player on the roster who puts the Twins in the "should win" category and that is every 5 games.

You mean like unaccomplished no names like Josh Donaldson Andrelton Simmons and Nelson Crux or Michael Pineda.  How about Colome?  The whole "clown" thing is really annoying.  Those clowns have real credentials.  

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