Jump to content
  • Create Account

A rant


 

I've got no problem giving extra rest if the team has good depth. I'm not sure you have that right now though if your replacement SS is JT Riddle.

To be fair, I don't think Riddle was in the lineup yesterday to rest a regular. He was in because Simmons was out and Donaldson was just coming back and probably couldn't play the whole doubleheader.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

Built-in rest days also leave more at bats for people like Jake Cave (nothing against him personally). Without looking, I am going to guess Cave is about sixth on the team in plate appearances so far this season, which should be unacceptable. I preferred Adrianza over Cave.

Cave is actually 5th on the team in PA right now. But it's primarily because either Buxton or Donaldson (and now Simmons) has been out for every game since opening day so far, plus Rooker struggled and got hurt and Kirilloff struggled too. It's not because they are resting a healthy productive regular every day. Arraez was supposed to be our "good" super-sub and he has more PA than Cave, it's just we've needed to dip further into our bench.

 

If those starting opportunities remain open, for whatever reason, they probably have to think about giving them to someone other than Cave. I don't think Adrianza would be an upgrade. I think the Kirilloff look yesterday was about that possibility in the near future.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Cave is actually 5th on the team in PA right now. But it's primarily because either Buxton or Donaldson (and now Simmons) has been out for every game since opening day so far, plus Rooker struggled and got hurt and Kirilloff struggled too. It's not because they are resting a healthy productive regular every day. Arraez was supposed to be our "good" super-sub and he has more PA than Cave, it's just we've needed to dip further into our bench.

 

If those starting opportunities remain open, for whatever reason, they probably have to think about giving them to someone other than Cave. I don't think Adrianza would be an upgrade. I think the Kirilloff look yesterday was about that possibility in the near future.

Thanks. Clarifying that it would be unacceptable if Cave was sixth in PA for a full season; over 12 games there’s at least an explaination. Edited by Hosken Bombo Disco
Change 11 games to 12 games
Link to comment
Share on other sites

This whole "rest" debate makes longtime baseball fans wonder. It wasn't that many years ago when position players would play both games of a double-header (for you younger folks that means a team plays two nine-inning games back-to-back in the same day - which of course is a rarity today) without pulling hamstrings or dropping dead from exhaustion.

 

And pitchers were expected to pitch nine innings, not 4 or 5. In the 1970's 28% of games were complete games. In the 1980's 15% of games were complete games. Today 2% are complete games. Yet in the meantime pitchers requiring Tommy John surgery has jumped from 12 pitchers requiring surgery in the 20 years from 1974-1994 to 194 MLB players requiring the same surgery from 2000-2011. And during the same time period 275 minor league players also went under the knife.

 

So more rest, less innings pitched, less innings thrown but more surgery required.

 

Does it take a genius to realize something is wrong here? I'm definitely not a genius, in fact I've bee called a dumb a$$ many times, but if I was into this over-analyzing craze plaguing baseball these days, I'd start wondering if there isn't something wrong with common weight training and conditioning practices and stop counting pitches as a determinate of arm health. Nolan Ryan once threw over 200 pitches in one game and lived to tell about it and Cy Young reportedly threw over 700 complete games in his career. Think about it, that's more complete games than all the major league pitchers combined have thrown in the last two decades! And required hundreds of surgeries despite throwing fewer innings and fewer games.

 

Hello!!!!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

If those starting opportunities remain open, for whatever reason, they probably have to think about giving them to someone other than Cave. I don't think Adrianza would be an upgrade. I think the Kirilloff look yesterday was about that possibility in the near future.

Yeah, it's kinda crazy that they're on their... seventh?... outfielder on the depth chart this season and they've played 12 games.

 

(Kepler, Buxton, Arraez, Cave, Garlick, Rooker, Kirilloff)

 

There's not a lot you can do about that in the short term. Things are going to be pretty chaotic for awhile if that many players keep going down in a short span.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Agreed. Getting players planned off days is fine...in June. We're 13 games into the season, have had 2 off-days, and already are giving guys regular games off. I would venture not too many teams are doing it, and it sure as hell hasn't done anything the past 2 years. When you play 162 games, the difference between playing 140 games and 145 games is not much. It's easy to say it's early, but every game matters. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

This whole "rest" debate makes longtime baseball fans wonder. It wasn't that many years ago when position players would play both games of a double-header (for you younger folks that means a team plays two nine-inning games back-to-back in the same day - which of course is a rarity today) without pulling hamstrings or dropping dead from exhaustion.

 

And pitchers were expected to pitch nine innings, not 4 or 5. In the 1970's 28% of games were complete games. In the 1980's 15% of games were complete games. Today 2% are complete games. Yet in the meantime pitchers requiring Tommy John surgery has jumped from 12 pitchers requiring surgery in the 20 years from 1974-1994 to 194 MLB players requiring the same surgery from 2000-2011. And during the same time period 275 minor league players also went under the knife.

 

So more rest, less innings pitched, less innings thrown but more surgery required.

 

Does it take a genius to realize something is wrong here? I'm definitely not a genius, in fact I've bee called a dumb a$$ many times, but if I was into this over-analyzing craze plaguing baseball these days, I'd start wondering if there isn't something wrong with common weight training and conditioning practices and stop counting pitches as a determinate of arm health. Nolan Ryan once threw over 200 pitches in one game and lived to tell about it and Cy Young reportedly threw over 700 complete games in his career. Think about it, that's more complete games than all the major league pitchers combined have thrown in the last two decades! And required hundreds of surgeries despite throwing fewer innings and fewer games.

 

Hello!!!!

There's a lot of things in play there. We can start with survivor bias. In the past, pitchers either retired or were forced out baseball due to ineffectiveness because TJ wasn't an option. We look at those who remained but the reality is that they had durable enough arms to stay in baseball while the rest faded into obscurity. Are players getting injured more often or did you just forget about all those pitchers that threw 91 one day, felt a twinge, then couldn't throw faster than 85mph and were out of baseball in a year?

 

Velocity is really hard on the body. If you go back just 20 years, how many starters regularly threw over 95mph? Four? Six? Not many. Today, a large chunk of starters regularly throw that hard and without looking into it, I'd say no less than half of all relievers throw that hard. As we approach maximum velocity allowed by the human body, each additional tick on the velo chart requires exponential (or something close to it) stress to get there. To add 1% more velocity, it requires a lot more than 1% more effort.

 

Past lineups sucked. Anyone who watched in the 70s/80s and accurately remembers what baseball looked like at the time knows that the back half of a lineup was laughable. Pitchers like Blyleven, while great arms, could basically coast through at least 1/3rd of a baseball lineup without trying very hard. After all, Mario Mendoza accumulated nearly 1500 career PAs and his performance, while a humorous thing to chuckle about today, wasn't entirely out of the ordinary for the time. Just look at the sad sacks Gardenhire was putting in the two slot on 90-win teams for pretty much all of the 2000s. And it was a lot worse in the 70s/80s.

 

It takes more pitches to retire a single batter in today's game. It took a long time to get here but every MLB team now realizes the importance of plate discipline, waiting for the right pitch, and taking a walk if that pitch isn't offered. When is the last time you saw a seven pitch inning from a pitcher? It's a rarity today but was quite common in the past, particularly from the best pitchers. More pitches per batter means fewer innings pitched.

 

I could go on for awhile this way but I'm sure you get the point. The game is simply more competitive, more rigorous, and more exhausting for pitchers than it was in the past and given the huge financial investment and ensuing risk aversion that goes along with the modern game, teams are more cautious with their players than they once were.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

2 years managing, 2 division titles. One bad week and Baldelli is an idiot. 

 

The Twins are a flawed team. So isn’t pretty much every other team. 

 

Waddell did nothing today to cause the Twins to lose a game

 

People can rant, they come across as sounding like Fran Drescher

 

Chief ain't nearly as funny as Fran Drescher....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

per old nurse "2 years managing, 2 division titles. One bad week and Baldelli is an idiot."

 

Last year means nothing. Repeat; last year means nothing. 2019 the Twins went on a home run rampage that had nothing to do with managing and will never be repeated by this team. Donaldson pulls a ham string in game one so I guess he should have been rested in game 1. MOY jinx now in effect. Its a long season anyway but this will be a real long season for this team. No breaks or "should win" games any time soon. Seems like most every team is improved except one.

 

When things go well, Baldelli didn't matter? But now, a week or two in, he does? Seems convenient when trying to make a point about him.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

Agreed. Getting players planned off days is fine...in June. We're 13 games into the season, have had 2 off-days, and already are giving guys regular games off.

What healthy regulars have gotten days off (plural) so far?

 

https://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/MIN/2021-lineups.shtml

 

Kepler is the only one -- 2 days off, both against LHP.

 

Cruz, Simmons, and Arraez look like they each got 1 day off. Sano got one of the games off in the doubleheader yesterday, but of course he has a 28 OPS+ right now too.

 

The other absences -- Buxton, Donaldson, and Simmons now -- all look to be health-related, not just "coach's decision, did not play."

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

What healthy regulars have gotten days off (plural) so far?

 

https://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/MIN/2021-lineups.shtml

 

Kepler is the only one -- 2 days off, both against LHP.

 

Cruz, Simmons, and Arraez look like they each got 1 day off. Sano got one of the games off in the doubleheader yesterday, but of course he has a 28 OPS+ right now too.

 

The other absences -- Buxton, Donaldson, and Simmons now -- all look to be health-related, not just "coach's decision, did not play."

I never said we've given regulars multiple days off. Cruz was sick, I'll exclude him. But there is no reason that ANYONE needs an offday to stay off their feet 13 games into the season. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

I never said we've given regulars multiple days off. Cruz was sick, I'll exclude him. But there is no reason that ANYONE needs an offday to stay off their feet 13 games into the season. 

Oh yeah, I forgot that Cruz was sick for his day off too.

 

That means we've given 5 days off total to healthy regulars, as far as I can tell -- and two of those (Kepler vs LHP) were for platoon reasons, one was for an extreme slumping Sano in a doubleheader.

 

You also said "I would venture not too many teams are doing it" -- you're going to need to show some evidence if you want us to believe a single day off each for Sano, Simmons, and Arraez over 2 weeks represents some kind of extreme "resting", relative to the rest of the league.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

There's a lot of things in play there. We can start with survivor bias. In the past, pitchers either retired or were forced out baseball due to ineffectiveness because TJ wasn't an option. We look at those who remained but the reality is that they had durable enough arms to stay in baseball while the rest faded into obscurity. Are players getting injured more often or did you just forget about all those pitchers that threw 91 one day, felt a twinge, then couldn't throw faster than 85mph and were out of baseball in a year?

 

Velocity is really hard on the body. If you go back just 20 years, how many starters regularly threw over 95mph? Four? Six? Not many. Today, a large chunk of starters regularly throw that hard and without looking into it, I'd say no less than half of all relievers throw that hard. As we approach maximum velocity allowed by the human body, each additional tick on the velo chart requires exponential (or something close to it) stress to get there. To add 1% more velocity, it requires a lot more than 1% more effort.

 

Past lineups sucked. Anyone who watched in the 70s/80s and accurately remembers what baseball looked like at the time knows that the back half of a lineup was laughable. Pitchers like Blyleven, while great arms, could basically coast through at least 1/3rd of a baseball lineup without trying very hard. After all, Mario Mendoza accumulated nearly 1500 career PAs and his performance, while a humorous thing to chuckle about today, wasn't entirely out of the ordinary for the time. Just look at the sad sacks Gardenhire was putting in the two slot on 90-win teams for pretty much all of the 2000s. And it was a lot worse in the 70s/80s.

 

It takes more pitches to retire a single batter in today's game. It took a long time to get here but every MLB team now realizes the importance of plate discipline, waiting for the right pitch, and taking a walk if that pitch isn't offered. When is the last time you saw a seven pitch inning from a pitcher? It's an extreme rarity today but was quite common in the past, particularly from the best pitchers. More pitches per batter means fewer innings pitched.

 

I could go on for awhile this way but I'm sure you get the point. The game is simply more competitive, more rigorous, and more exhausting for pitchers than it was in the past and given the huge financial investment and ensuing risk aversion that goes along with the modern game, teams are more cautious with their players than they once were. 

A lot of the points you make are true. Including the last two paragraphs, the last of which is one of the key pieces.  In the second last par you mention, correctly, how difficult it is to retire MLB hitters today. Which I agree with. I do wonder though what the average pitch count is for todays SP v a SP of yesteryear? It would seem to be somewhat lower? Which obviously magnifies the difference in innings pitched. The last par touches on the cost of today’s pitching. It may be the most pertinent point of the discussion. Owners have huge amounts invested in a serviceable SP. While I can see the desire to "protect" that investment, there certainly seem to be different opinions on how to do so. One could ask if you are getting your money’s worth from said investment, if the manager turns every game over to a far inferior talent coming out of the pen for the last 3-4 innings? The answer doesn’t seem simple. You have a pen like the one KC had a few years ago, it may even be an upgrade. You have one like has populated downtown Mpls. some years, and it’s often a waste of your SP investment. While there are stats encouraging teams to avoid throwing that third time through the order thing, it also depends who is throwing those pitches. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

A lot of the points you make are true. Including the last two paragraphs, the last of which is one of the key pieces.  In the second last par you mention, correctly, how difficult it is to retire MLB hitters today. Which I agree with. I do wonder though what the average pitch count is for todays SP v a SP of yesteryear? It would seem to be somewhat lower? Which obviously magnifies the difference in innings pitched. The last par touches on the cost of today’s pitching. It may be the most pertinent point of the discussion. Owners have huge amounts invested in a serviceable SP. While I can see the desire to "protect" that investment, there certainly seem to be different opinions on how to do so. One could ask if you are getting your money’s worth from said investment, if the manager turns every game over to a far inferior talent coming out of the pen for the last 3-4 innings? The answer doesn’t seem simple. You have a pen like the one KC had a few years ago, it may even be an upgrade. You have one like has populated downtown Mpls. some years, and it’s often a waste of your SP investment. While there are stats encouraging teams to avoid throwing that third time through the order thing, it also depends who is throwing those pitches. 

That's exactly what teams are trying to figure out now.

 

To boil it down to a simple question with a pitcher we know, this is the crux:

"What is more valuable to a team, 140 IP of 3.8 ERA Jake Odorizzi or 180 IP of 4.2 ERA Jake Odorizzi?"

 

And there's a ton of questions within that question that need to be answered to come up with a real answer:

 

- What are the odds of health at 140 IP vs 180 IP?

- How good is your bullpen at filling that 40 IP?

- How deep is said bullpen to cover multiple pitchers doing this?

- From 140-180 IP, is Odorizzi a 4.6 ERA pitcher or a 4.9 ERA pitcher? Or other?

 

Baseball teams haven't solved every one of those questions and the answers change every season but today's MLB front offices are a lot better at asking the right questions (and coming close to the right answer) than front offices of the past.

 

One of the things that really irks me about fandom (and society in general, really) is that people assume things that don't make sense to them are due to professional incompetence. If someone is a professional doing their job, some level of competence should be assumed or else they probably wouldn't have that job. Because it doesn't make sense to a layman at a glance does not invalidate the work of professionals paid to do something for a living.

 

In short, pitchers don't pitch less because they're soft and/or front offices are stupid. There are underlying reasons for this backed up by data and baseball knowledge; we can and should examine the reasoning behind that and critique it but most layman don't even ask the right questions (because that's hard), much less have the right answers (wrong answers are easy).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The game is simply more competitive, more rigorous, and more exhausting for pitchers than it was in the past

... and yet, not as entertaining to watch. That represents a truly sad irony.

 

(I agree with the points you offered, and apologize for a further tangent from Chief's eloquent rant.)

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In general using Cy Young and Nolan Ryan to make a point doesn't equate to a good argument. You might as well ask the question, why can't the average pitcher today be as good as the greatest pitchers that ever threw. They're in the HOF for a reason, they were better than everyone else in all aspects (quality and quantity).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

This is the attitude that gets you no play off wins in 2 decades. People CAN see the writing on the wall in some situations. Not everything is hind sight. Rocco's "Good Year" happened to be when he lucked into a team that broke the HR Record. Thats it. You can toss 2020 out the window because a season consisting of 1/3 the normal games does not count. 

Now Balldelli is responsible for Gardenhire’s teams, too. Amazing. If what happened last year  does not count by your logic what has happened so far this year is equally meaningless. What people see is what they want to see

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

In general using Cy Young and Nolan Ryan to make a point doesn't equate to a good argument. You might as well ask the question, why can't the average pitcher today be as good as the greatest pitchers that ever threw. They're in the HOF for a reason, they were better than everyone else in all aspects (quality and quantity).

Quality and quantity aren't the question.

 

I understand Jose Berios isn't as good as Nolan Ryan was.

 

But that's a differnent argument than Jose Berrios can't throw as many innings as Nolan Ryan.

 

In any case, it's unrelated to "it's not necessary or productive to give position players so many extra days off."

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Oh boy Can't wait to see Lewis Thorpe pitch to Ohtani, Trout and Rendon tomorrow!

Maybe Riddle and Astudillo can bat 1,2 since Buxton, Donaldson and Cruz likely need days off tomorrow.

Ripken only played 2,632 straight, but Rocco knows all.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

 

Good read, thanks for this.

 

I enjoyed this blurb from the article and this is what I agreed with from day 1.

 

“There’s a balance between rest and performance,” says Brandon McDaniel, major league strength coach for the Los Angeles Dodgers, “Baseball is a highly skilled sport that doesn’t rely on raw athletic abilities like running and jumping.” According to McDaniel too much rest can take a player out of rhythm and increase the risk of injury because the body hasn’t developed the tolerance needed to handle 9 innings.

“The most important thing to do (to avoid injury and maintain performance) is to maintain the rhythm,”

 

Baseball, especially hitting is more about rhythm than anything. Example: Sano vs Buxton right now.

I played sports all 3 seasons in High School and one sport in college. While I played games/competed less frequently, I practiced daily. High School and College players never received days off. The best players played. While I think we all agree that baseball takes as much or more talent than other sports, it's not physically taxing for people who don't pitch.

 

I simply don't agree with the amount of days off the position players receive. If they aren't 100%, they don't play. Banged up players play in other sports all the time. Why does Rocco feel like any amount of soreness requires days off in Baseball?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The spectrum...

 

Play all the time even when tired or dinged, you’re still better than your replacement, you’re paid to play, and you owe it to the team and the organization to be in the lineup; Oganizations milk everything they can from players while they’re young and healthy.

 

to...

 

My first and only priority is to myself and my future earnings, and I’m getting paid either way; Organizations willing to defer wins today to protect (or at least THINK they’re protecting) investment and future payroll.

 

The pendulum always swings too far.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I guess my question is if the regular rest is key to preventing injuries it sure hasn’t worked during Roccos tenure. Maybe Roccos Rest Camp isn’t the answer to fewer injuries? Maybe it’s more playing time or different conditioning?

 

Baseball isn’t that strenuous of a sport. There are many sports where the athletes play more vigorously on nearly a daily basis.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

Quality and quantity aren't the question.

 

I understand Jose Berios isn't as good as Nolan Ryan was.

 

But that's a differnent argument than Jose Berrios can't throw as many innings as Nolan Ryan.

 

In any case, it's unrelated to "it's not necessary or productive to give position players so many extra days off."

You didn't bring up Nolan Ryan another commenter did. Their point seems to be that the greatest of all time didn't need days off or get taken out of ball games to lessen the load therefore why should <pampered player>. So, in that context it does relate.

 

Also, you say that quantity isn't a question then proceed to mention the quantity of innings difference between Berrios and Ryan. Again, Ryan is one of the greatest pitchers ever somewhat due to the fact that he could just keep throwing the ball pitch after pitch, batter after batter, inning after inning, year after year. Why can't Berrios do that? How about, why can't anyone in today's MLB do that?

Personally, I think your original question has been answered by spycake...
"That means we've given 5 days off total to healthy regulars, as far as I can tell -- and two of those (Kepler vs LHP) were for platoon reasons, one was for an extreme slumping Sano in a doubleheader."

How about you reply to that comment instead?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is the attitude that gets you no play off wins in 2 decades. People CAN see the writing on the wall in some situations. Not everything is hind sight. Rocco's "Good Year" happened to be when he lucked into a team that broke the HR Record. Thats it. You can toss 2020 out the window because a season consisting of 1/3 the normal games does not count.

So let me get this straight...both 2019 AND 2020 need to be thrown out the window. Because in 2019, the players played well out of the their dang minds. We can’t consider 2020 because it was two months. Now we’re inflating one bad week so much it’s already burst like a balloon. Logic.

 

What do we look at then? The postseason where his offense couldn’t do jack ****?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think playing Morneau 163 games along with all star game and home run derby probably wore him out and having 7 or 8 games off over the course of the year might have been the difference between making the playoffs vs having to play a game 163 and losing.    I also agreed with the way Mauer was handled though I know I was in the minority.   I believe there is an argument to be had for the other side in terms of keeping guys in a routine and playing regularly.   If Buxton had health issues then sitting him is the right thing to do.   If not, then it is pretty silly to sit him this often while he is playing so well.   Playing 11 games in 10 days probably warrants resting everyone for a game or two.     The 6 game week schedule probably should be more like a game of rest every few weeks for the best players.   You do want your bench players getting game time as well to keep them sharp.    

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

Now Balldelli is responsible for Gardenhire’s teams, too. Amazing. If what happened last year  does not count by your logic what has happened so far this year is equally meaningless. What people see is what they want to see

I see 0 play off wins, regardless of managers, and the trend continuing. Thats not what I want to see and not only is it what I alone am seeing. Its is reality and fact, for all. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So let me get this straight...both 2019 AND 2020 need to be thrown out the window. Because in 2019, the players played well out of the their dang minds. We can’t consider 2020 because it was two months. Now we’re inflating one bad week so much it’s already burst like a balloon. Logic.

 

What do we look at then? The postseason where his offense couldn’t do jack ****?

Correct.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
 Share

  • Twins Daily Video

  • ×
    ×
    • Create New...