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Astros Being Investigated for Using Tech to Steal Pitching Signs


Vanimal46
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Maybe that's true, I won't try to mind read. That's not what he said in this case though.

 

Who needs to mindread here?  He dressed down Fiers for being a "snitch" so that means he should not have told anyone.  Why is he reserving all of his anger for him?  What about the players who said nothing while it went on?  That would be the whole damn team.

 

You are giving Ortiz too much credit.  If you want to defend his logic then go ahead and jump the shark

 

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Ortiz is right to a degree. It sure would have been nice if Fiers had spoke up sooner. 

 

However... Ortiz is wrong to single Fiers out because there is an entire team of Houston players who did not speak up while it was going on. 

 

Fiers eventually spoke up. That is good not bad. Nobody else did... that is bad not good. 

 

 

 

 

 

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The part of what Ortiz is saying shouldn't be something that overshadows the real issue. That is the problem I have with him. He is angrier about that than he is about what the Astros did. While he might be right questioning the timing of Fiers breaking this, how in the heck is that more important to him than what Houston did to the league? How in the hell is the truth wrong?

 

What's the alternative? Don't "snitch" and just allow it to continue? That is a load of garbage and you don't believe it for a second. I don't give a damn about Mike Fiers. You can question Fiers' integrity all day and long but it doesn't alter the state of evidence here and it really isn't anything significant. What is more bothersome is this "cone of silence" some players want maintain on such matters. Ortiz leads the charge and that is very very disappointing to me because he was one of my favorite people in baseball for many years.

 

Screw him

I'm only saying that I agree with the part I quoted. That's it.

 

I'm not defending Ortiz or defending an anti snitching culture. Period.

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I'm only saying that I agree with the part I quoted. That's it.

I'm not defending Ortiz or defending an anti snitching culture. Period.

Well, what the heck was Fiers supposed to do?   Blow the whistle in 2017

To have a problem with Fiers is ludicrous.  What about the guys who never said a word?

WHY HIM??  There were a lot of other guys on that roster.

 

 

 

You are operating in a vacuum and you  just don't make any sense on this one.  Sorry man.

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Well, what the heck was Fiers supposed to do? Blow the whistle in 2017

To have a problem with Fiers is ludicrous. What about the guys who never said a word?

WHY HIM?? There were a lot of other guys on that roster.

 

 

 

You are operating in a vacuum and you just don't make any sense on this one. Sorry man.

I have a problem with all the players on the cheating team.

Every single one, including Fiers.

 

Fiers doesn't get to be the guy with the integrity or the conscience here. That's all I'm saying.

He has exactly equally as low of integrity as everyone else on the team.

Integrity would have been refusing to look the other way while your cheating team is benefiting you.

 

If he had integrity, he would have told the team, "stop cheating or I'm leaving the team and telling the press what's going on."

 

I'm not singling out Fiers, as you imply I am, I'm actually doing the opposite. I'm saying he's in the same group as all the other players that didn't say anything.

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Well, what the heck was Fiers supposed to do? Blow the whistle in 2017

To have a problem with Fiers is ludicrous. What about the guys who never said a word?

WHY HIM?? There were a lot of other guys on that roster.

 

 

 

You are operating in a vacuum and you just don't make any sense on this one. Sorry man.

well, yeah... there’s a whole team and office and coaching staff of people who should have said something during the season, including Fiers. It was wrong and that should have been evident at the time.

 

It’s good that Fiers spoke up after the fact, but he loses credibility by accepting the benefits before speaking up. That’s why it’s a conflict of interest. It’s like taking a bribe, then saying, “hey look, there’s bribery going on!”....”wait, you’re not taking away my bribe are you? I worked hard for it!”

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I have a problem with all the players on the cheating team.
Every single one, including Fiers.

Fiers doesn't get to be the guy with the integrity or the conscience here. That's all I'm saying.
He has exactly equally as low of integrity as everyone else on the team.
Integrity would have been refusing to look the other way while your cheating team is benefiting you.

If he had integrity, he would have told the team, "stop cheating or I'm leaving the team and telling the press what's going on."

I'm not singling out Fiers, as you imply I am, I'm actually doing the opposite. I'm saying he's in the same group as all the other players that didn't say anything.

He has more integrity than any other Astros player from that team if speaking up is your measure of integrity.  He is the last guy anyone should be complaining about from that standpoint.  So, yes...when you endorse what Ortiz says right there you are singling him out.

 

And no.  He isn't in the same group as all the other players who said nothing,

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well, yeah... there’s a whole team and office and coaching staff of people who should have said something during the season, including Fiers. It was wrong and that should have been evident at the time.

It’s good that Fiers spoke up after the fact, but he loses credibility by accepting the benefits before speaking up. That’s why it’s a conflict of interest. It’s like taking a bribe, then saying, “hey look, there’s bribery going on!”....”wait, you’re not taking away my bribe are you? I worked hard for it!”

Well now this underscores the trouble with baseball.  There is obviously a "wall of silence" among the ranks with matters such as this.  The fact that Fiers spoke up while still an active player who will pitch against this team is fairly incredible for baseball standards.

 

 

 

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Fiers doesn't get to be the guy with the integrity or the conscience here. That's all I'm saying.

I actually have no interest in a debate over the integrity of Mike Fiers, but to call him a "snitch" is utterly absurd.  If you want to call his integrity into question and make that into the issue then you are really spacing out there.   I don't see where Mike Fiers integrity comes into play unless the allegations he made were in question.   They aren't, so please stop.

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I have a problem with all the players on the cheating team.
Every single one, including Fiers.

Fiers doesn't get to be the guy with the integrity or the conscience here. That's all I'm saying.
He has exactly equally as low of integrity as everyone else on the team.
Integrity would have been refusing to look the other way while your cheating team is benefiting you.

If he had integrity, he would have told the team, "stop cheating or I'm leaving the team and telling the press what's going on."

I'm not singling out Fiers, as you imply I am, I'm actually doing the opposite. I'm saying he's in the same group as all the other players that didn't say anything.

You want to rip Fiers, rip him for multiple documented issues with underage girls in various locations around the league.

 

There are some who did say something on that team and were still overrun. I do believe that expecting someone to walk away from their job is a bit altruistic from the outside looking in. It's one reason whistleblowers (an absolutely vital part of a capitalistic society) are farther and fewer between. Those who do whistleblow are exposed (nice job with that, MLB), which is supposed to be illegal, lambasted as traitors or snitches, and even face retribution, which a gangster-glorified society finds merited punishment.

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You want to rip Fiers, rip him for multiple documented issues with underage girls in various locations around the league.

 

There are some who did say something on that team and were still overrun. I do believe that expecting someone to walk away from their job is a bit altruistic from the outside looking in. It's one reason whistleblowers (an absolutely vital part of a capitalistic society) are farther and fewer between. Those who do whistleblow are exposed (nice job with that, MLB), which is supposed to be illegal, lambasted as traitors or snitches, and even face retribution, which a gangster-glorified society finds merited punishment.

that’s alleged too, right? I can’t find any convictions
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that’s alleged too, right? I can’t find any convictions

He's been accused by multiple, but the first to come forward did so to a reporter who wanted to make money off the information by selling it to someone. He then outed the young woman's face along with multiple social media handles when attempting to complain on Twitter that no one would purchase. The images are real, but apparently the young woman is now non-cooperative with any further investigation.

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You want to rip Fiers, rip him for multiple documented issues with underage girls in various locations around the league.

 

There are some who did say something on that team and were still overrun. I do believe that expecting someone to walk away from their job is a bit altruistic from the outside looking in. It's one reason whistleblowers (an absolutely vital part of a capitalistic society) are farther and fewer between. Those who do whistleblow are exposed (nice job with that, MLB), which is supposed to be illegal, lambasted as traitors or snitches, and even face retribution, which a gangster-glorified society finds merited punishment.

Yeah, that's what integrity is. Doing the right thing despite all of those potential consequences.

 

Anyone can do the right thing once the consequences have passed. That doesn't require any integrity.

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Yeah, that's what integrity is. Doing the right thing despite all of those potential consequences.

Anyone can do the right thing once the consequences have passed. That doesn't require any integrity.

Who cares if the act of exposing the Astros cheating is one of integrity or not?  It had to be done.  Were his allegations false?  No, they were not.  So what are we really talking about here?  Nothing much beyond your definition of the word integrity and whether or not Mike Fiers has it.  Who cares?  We might as well talk about whether or not he has cool facial hair if we are going to nitpick about his integrity.  What about the game of baseball and how they granted these Astros players immunity and fired non players?  Does that register on your integrity meter?  

 

If his claims were being disputed by the Astros then it would be a conversation worth having.  Ortiz is being a buffoon.  Anyone who cares about integrity in baseball should be a whole lot more concerned with what an entire organization did as opposed to the player who "snitched" about it.  All Ortiz tried to do was change the conversation.  He failed because the Astros are going to be excoriated and sullied on the road and I will love every minute of it.

 

And by the way, you didn't acknowledge the most crucial part of what Ben said with regards to whistleblowers.  Ortiz wants the Astros to skate on this AND he vilified Fiers for "Snitching".  Ben was very right to say that when we expose those who speak out we are treading on dangerous waters.  That went right over your head.  Now, you can sit there and say Fiers had no integrity by saying nothing during the 2017 season, but you have no idea how difficult that would have been for him.  He would have been a pariah and a turncoat in the baseball world.  The way the baseball fraternity is, he really had no choice but to wait until his days in Houston were done (if survival is an instinct he possesses) 

 

That is all

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The part of what Ortiz is saying shouldn't be something that overshadows the real issue.  That is the problem I have with him.  He is angrier about that than he is about what the Astros did.  While he might be right questioning the timing of Fiers breaking this, how in the heck is that more important to him than what Houston did to the league?  How in the hell is the truth wrong?

 

What's the alternative?  Don't "snitch" and just allow it to continue?  That is a load of garbage and you don't believe it for a second.   I don't give a damn about Mike Fiers.  You can question Fiers' integrity all day and long but it doesn't alter the state of evidence here and it really isn't anything significant.  What is more bothersome is this "cone of silence" some players want maintain on such matters.  Ortiz leads the charge and that is very very disappointing to me because he was one of my favorite people in baseball for many years.

 

Screw him

 

This!!

 

On my own dishonesty/lack of integrity spectrum, Fiers still makes it onto the continuum, but far to the left of Ortiz, who is far to the left of the people who should not have a word that comes out of their pie holes trusted as truthful or sincere. People like Manfred, Luhnow, Crane. Idiots like Correa, Bregaman, and Altuve. 

 

Screw 'em all, including Fiers.

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This!!

 

On my own dishonesty/lack of integrity spectrum, Fiers still makes it onto the continuum, but far to the left of Ortiz, who is far to the left of the people who should not have a word that comes out of their pie holes trusted as truthful or sincere. People like Manfred, Luhnow, Crane. Idiots like Correa, Bregaman, and Altuve. 

 

Screw 'em all, including Fiers.

I am thoroughly disgusted by the whole thing.  It extends beyond the cheating scam.  The reaction by the league office, the Astros and people like David Ortiz is almost as disheartening.  Even Cuddyer's quotes in the Star Tribune were ridiculous to me.

 

Going after Fiers "integrity" based off when he chose to our the Astros is freaking pointless.  What we should be wondering is: Why aren't these players being punished?  I really don't want to hear the "we can't prove the level of involvement" because we already know the scam happened.  I don't see why key players aren't questioned.  I don't see how presumed innocence protects all of the Astros who played on that 2017.  Baseball obviously feels it is bad for business getting to the bottom of this mess so they are going to allow the players to skate.

 

This is a big problem for me as a fan.  Stealing signs is part of what has gone down in baseball forever.  There is a distinction that needs to be made here, though.   Perhaps now is the time to put in specific clauses in contracts where owners can opt out.  Players can opt out for any reason, so why not owners?  If you are arrested and charged with a crime or caught in something like this the organization should have the same luxury to opt out. Let them get the league minimum while they sit on the sidelines.  They can either take it or fight it.

 

I don't have the answers, but something has to be done.  Heck, let the players union vote anonymously on this issue.  Something better than no punishment for the players.

 

 

 

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Players aren’t being punished because Manfred gave them immunity so they would talk. It’s akin to ‘admit your crime and you can go free.’

 

I think this needs to be rethought, somehow, because no punishment is what most of the other current ball players have spoken out about. I still think their rings should be taken away and that they should repay their playoff winnings.

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Players aren’t being punished because Manfred gave them immunity so they would talk. It’s akin to ‘admit your crime and you can go free.’

I think this needs to be rethought, somehow, because no punishment is what most of the other current ball players have spoken out about. I still think their rings should be taken away and that they should repay their playoff winnings.

They got immunity so they could talk, but nothing came out.  No admission,  no explanation of what actually went down here.

 

What is the precedent now?  

 

The league should start questioning people on the periphery.  Start with those who wired up the system if the players won't come clean

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They got immunity so they could talk, but nothing came out. No admission, no explanation of what actually went down here.

 

What is the precedent now?

 

The league should start questioning people on the periphery. Start with those who wired up the system if the players won't come clean

We don’t know what players said privately, but enough to shed light on what Fiers said. The investigation and the suspensions and fines levied so far came from whatever players said that confirmed Fiers allegations.

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This guy needs to rewrite his book....there is a new, new way to win it all.

 

41b8eoI9yyL._SY291_BO1,204,203,200_QL40_

The author has given some tremendous interviews this offseason. I'm glad he's not shied away from the work he did putting that book together because it is a very well-written book that shows the effort he put into getting into the background of the analytics used by the team.

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