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Front Page: Twins at Risk of Sinking to New Low with October Woes


Nick Nelson
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Grienke really showing how necessary trading for aces is right now...I mean if only the Twins had him and his huge contract giving up bombs instead of the cheap guys they have giving up bombs instead.

 

Astros may very well come back and win this game. Just getting sick and tired of the same old complaining about how the Twins need to get high priced guys to ever have a shot. The Nats run out 3 high priced studs and they're at risk of elimination today. Grienke makes a ton and has given up 4 in 3 so far today. Clayton Kershaw has terrible numbers in the postseason.

 

Tampa had the second lowest ERA in baseball this season and their whole team has a $60 mil payroll. Washington was 13th and have $60 mil invested in just 3 of their starters alone. It's time to get over the obsession with big name guys and start to realize that isn't how pitching staffs have to be built.

One game proves nothing. Would you rather have Perez or Grienke start? How would you recommend the Twins build the staff for next year, without spending money?

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One game proves nothing. Would you rather have Perez or Grienke start? How would you recommend the Twins build the staff for next year, without spending money?

In a vacuum? Grienke. In the real world where, whether you like it or not, we have a budget and that means we can't just spend whatever we want on whoever we want? Berrios, Pineda, and Odorizzi. Unfortunately Pineda but a real dent in those plans.

 

I would like them to continue to build from within. I would prefer to have a complete team than have 1 ace making 25-30 million a year. This front office has been in place for 3 seasons and have seen the team ERA go from 5.08 to 4.18 through savvy trades and signings while developing the guys in the system. Your refusal to accept that they have a budget they are forced to work within doesn't mean they're doing a poor job.

 

One game proves that your complaints about this series being a disaster because we didn't trade for Grienke or sign some high priced free agent is just confirmation bias because they didn't do what you wanted. Unless you think that pitcher, or even 2 of them, were both throwing 7 innings of 1 run ball, but that isn't likely.

 

And the last part of that post mentioned 162 games of evidence, not 1. And, actually, Tampa has been quite good at pitching over the last decade without signing any high priced free agents, and actually letting them walk instead. So there's way more than 1 game of evidence.

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If they (twins) lose game 3 like the first two it’s an utter disgrace. I’m watching the Nats Dodgers game and watching Scherzer pitch makes me envious. If only we had ONE starter that could do what he does, just one.

Edited by laloesch
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In a vacuum? Grienke. In the real world where, whether you like it or not, we have a budget and that means we can't just spend whatever we want on whoever we want? Berrios, Pineda, and Odorizzi. Unfortunately Pineda but a real dent in those plans.

 

I would like them to continue to build from within. I would prefer to have a complete team than have 1 ace making 25-30 million a year. This front office has been in place for 3 seasons and have seen the team ERA go from 5.08 to 4.18 through savvy trades and signings while developing the guys in the system. Your refusal to accept that they have a budget they are forced to work within doesn't mean they're doing a poor job.

 

One game proves that your complaints about this series being a disaster because we didn't trade for Grienke or sign some high priced free agent is just confirmation bias because they didn't do what you wanted. Unless you think that pitcher, or even 2 of them, were both throwing 7 innings of 1 run ball, but that isn't likely.

 

And the last part of that post mentioned 162 games of evidence, not 1. And, actually, Tampa has been quite good at pitching over the last decade without signing any high priced free agents, and actually letting them walk instead. So there's way more than 1 game of evidence.

 

I'm not doing any such thing. I'm asking they spend what they spent last year, next year. Nothing more. Not one penny more. 

 

Tampa is an exception. If MN was as good as Tampa, it would be shocking, since no other team has figure out how to do what they do. 

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In a vacuum? Grienke. In the real world where, whether you like it or not, we have a budget and that means we can't just spend whatever we want on whoever we want? Berrios, Pineda, and Odorizzi. Unfortunately Pineda but a real dent in those plans.

 

I would like them to continue to build from within. I would prefer to have a complete team than have 1 ace making 25-30 million a year. This front office has been in place for 3 seasons and have seen the team ERA go from 5.08 to 4.18 through savvy trades and signings while developing the guys in the system. Your refusal to accept that they have a budget they are forced to work within doesn't mean they're doing a poor job.

 

One game proves that your complaints about this series being a disaster because we didn't trade for Grienke or sign some high priced free agent is just confirmation bias because they didn't do what you wanted. Unless you think that pitcher, or even 2 of them, were both throwing 7 innings of 1 run ball, but that isn't likely.

 

And the last part of that post mentioned 162 games of evidence, not 1. And, actually, Tampa has been quite good at pitching over the last decade without signing any high priced free agents, and actually letting them walk instead. So there's way more than 1 game of evidence.

You're ignoring Verlander and Cole.

 

Find me a succesful team that developed all of it's pitching internally.

 

I'll wait.

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I'm not doing any such thing. I'm asking they spend what they spent last year, next year. Nothing more. Not one penny more. 

 

Tampa is an exception. If MN was as good as Tampa, it would be shocking, since no other team has figure out how to do what they do. 

Cleveland seems to do some pretty incredible stuff with their starting staff internally. Word on the street is the guy who do the heavy lifting setting up their system is now setting up the Twins system.

 

With the increases in salary coming for the carry over guys spending the same as last year means they again won't be bringing in any big name free agent arms. You can let a few of the offensive guys go, but then you need your prospects to step up and replace them to continue to be a strong offense. But if we had traded those prospects for the big name guys like Grienke then you're now looking at not being able to keep all your guys and not having guys to replace them.

 

Building through the minors is how this team has to do things to stay competitive.

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Cleveland seems to do some pretty incredible stuff with their starting staff internally. Word on the street is the guy who do the heavy lifting setting up their system is now setting up the Twins system.

 

With the increases in salary coming for the carry over guys spending the same as last year means they again won't be bringing in any big name free agent arms. You can let a few of the offensive guys go, but then you need your prospects to step up and replace them to continue to be a strong offense. But if we had traded those prospects for the big name guys like Grienke then you're now looking at not being able to keep all your guys and not having guys to replace them.

 

Building through the minors is how this team has to do things to stay competitive.

 

Letting Cron go gives them around 40-60 million to spend. Spend $5MM on a catcher. 

 

You now have 35-55 million to spend, just to get to this year's budget. To get to last year's, you need to spend 5-10MM more......

 

They aren't extending Rosario or Garver. No way Buxton signs a deal. That leaves Berrios and Sano? I don't see Sano signing an extension here, but I guess he might. 

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Cleveland seems to do some pretty incredible stuff with their starting staff internally. Word on the street is the guy who do the heavy lifting setting up their system is now setting up the Twins system.

 

With the increases in salary coming for the carry over guys spending the same as last year means they again won't be bringing in any big name free agent arms. You can let a few of the offensive guys go, but then you need your prospects to step up and replace them to continue to be a strong offense. But if we had traded those prospects for the big name guys like Grienke then you're now looking at not being able to keep all your guys and not having guys to replace them.

 

Building through the minors is how this team has to do things to stay competitive.

 

No one is arguing with the last point.

 

If you believe the window is open, you can't go into next year with 5 internal options at SP. 

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I don't know if it was that routine -- it was really in no-man's land:

 

attachicon.gifplay.png

 

If it had been high enough for Arraez to get under it, then Rosario probably has a better play on it anyway.

 

And in any case, that ball dropping doesn't matter if Cron catches a relatively routine throw from the second baseman. :)

Agreed! Although the throw was low, it wasn't even in the dirt. Cron is not adept at taking throws that are a bit off-target. It is why I preferred to have Gonzales at first and using Cron only as a pinch-hitter.

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You're ignoring Verlander and Cole.

 

Find me a succesful team that developed all of it's pitching internally.

 

I'll wait.

As in hasn't signed a high priced free agent or traded for a high priced arm?

 

Tampa (unless you're counting Charlie Morton as big name/high priced at 15 mil)

Cleveland

Oakland

Atlanta (unless you're counting Keuchel as big name/high priced at 13 mil)

St Louis (unless you're counting Miller being bad for them as a key to their success)

Milwaukee

Dodgers

 

Just to name a few of the playoff teams this season. Internally doesn't mean draft and develop. Building through the minors doesn't mean only guys you drafted or signed internationally. It means not bringing in high priced guys from other teams. It means snagging an electric arm as a secondary piece for Sergio Romo. It means getting guys cheap and turning them into better arms with your system.

 

Yes, the Dodgers are able to re-sign their studs, but the guys they bring in from the outside aren't the $120,000,000 guys. But go ahead and cut them out if that makes you feel better. 6 other playoff teams this year have pitching staffs built almost exactly the same way as the Twins current staff.

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Letting Cron go gives them around 40-60 million to spend. Spend $5MM on a catcher. 

 

You now have 35-55 million to spend, just to get to this year's budget. To get to last year's, you need to spend 5-10MM more......

 

They aren't extending Rosario or Garver. No way Buxton signs a deal. That leaves Berrios and Sano? I don't see Sano signing an extension here, but I guess he might. 

Rosario, Garver, Buxton, Berrios, and Sano will all get raises for next season. Every last one of them. No, they likely won't sign extensions, but that isn't the only way they make more money. Arbitration will ensure their price tags all go up. Rather significantly in a few cases.

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No one is arguing with the last point.

 

If you believe the window is open, you can't go into next year with 5 internal options at SP. 

Odo, Berrios, Graterol is a pretty good start to a rotation. I'm not saying never sign outside guys I'm saying the elite arms you're always asking for don't bring enough to the table to offset the deficiencies they cause in the rest of the roster by not being able to afford good players at other positions. 

 

Part of our differences is that you want a super wide window and are more ok than I am with having that window only open for a short time as long as you make it open as far as possible. I want the window open more or less all the time without being as willing to risk having it completely closed for 10 years like we just experienced.

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As in hasn't signed a high priced free agent or traded for a high priced arm?

 

Tampa (unless you're counting Charlie Morton as big name/high priced at 15 mil)

Cleveland

Oakland

Atlanta (unless you're counting Keuchel as big name/high priced at 13 mil)

St Louis (unless you're counting Miller being bad for them as a key to their success)

Milwaukee

Dodgers

 

Just to name a few of the playoff teams this season. Internally doesn't mean draft and develop. Building through the minors doesn't mean only guys you drafted or signed internationally. It means not bringing in high priced guys from other teams. It means snagging an electric arm as a secondary piece for Sergio Romo. It means getting guys cheap and turning them into better arms with your system.

 

Yes, the Dodgers are able to re-sign their studs, but the guys they bring in from the outside aren't the $120,000,000 guys. But go ahead and cut them out if that makes you feel better. 6 other playoff teams this year have pitching staffs built almost exactly the same way as the Twins current staff.

 

Dodgers brought in Greinke until they had enough internal options....

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Odo, Berrios, Graterol is a pretty good start to a rotation. I'm not saying never sign outside guys I'm saying the elite arms you're always asking for don't bring enough to the table to offset the deficiencies they cause in the rest of the roster by not being able to afford good players at other positions. 

 

Part of our differences is that you want a super wide window and are more ok than I am with having that window only open for a short time as long as you make it open as far as possible. I want the window open more or less all the time without being as willing to risk having it completely closed for 10 years like we just experienced.

 

Odo is a free agent, who I hope they sign.

 

Gaterol is not likely to start the year in MN as a starter, but I could be wrong about that.

 

The window won't be open next year w/o adding pitching to the one guy they have right now. Adding Odo is a good start. Instead of spending money on Perez and Cron, they could have signed a better pitcher. A team on a budget can't afford to spend 5-8MM on mediocre/bad players. 

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Odo is a free agent, who I hope they sign.

 

Gaterol is not likely to start the year in MN as a starter, but I could be wrong about that.

 

The window won't be open next year w/o adding pitching to the one guy they have right now. Adding Odo is a good start. Instead of spending money on Perez and Cron, they could have signed a better pitcher. A team on a budget can't afford to spend 5-8MM on mediocre/bad players. 

It is very hard to survive with having mediocre/bad players making 5-8 mil, yes. It is way harder having guys make 2,3,4, or 5 times that much and being mediocre/bad. Like every bullpen guy not named Ottavino that signed this last offseason for 10+ mil. It's easier (and in my opinion smarter) to sign 2 guys at 5-8 each than one guy for 10-16. Or sign 4 guys for 5-8 instead of 1 guy for 20-30. Those signings have to be done smartly and with clear ideas on how to get the guy you sign to improve and start putting up better numbers. Like Perez in the first month. Pitching staffs have become more about the number of options you have than relying on a few big priced guys. Especially bullpens.

 

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It is very hard to survive with having mediocre/bad players making 5-8 mil, yes. It is way harder having guys make 2,3,4, or 5 times that much and being mediocre/bad. Like every bullpen guy not named Ottavino that signed this last offseason for 10+ mil. It's easier (and in my opinion smarter) to sign 2 guys at 5-8 each than one guy for 10-16. Or sign 4 guys for 5-8 instead of 1 guy for 20-30. Those signings have to be done smartly and with clear ideas on how to get the guy you sign to improve and start putting up better numbers. Like Perez in the first month. Pitching staffs have become more about the number of options you have than relying on a few big priced guys. Especially bullpens.

 

I agree with all of that. I preached all of last year that they should be bringing guys up and down from AAA for the pen. Instead, they brought in a bunch of guys that could not be optioned, and now Nick Anderson is very good. This year they didn't do that, and Gonsalves got hurt (though I think they would have used him as a starter) and Romero has forgotten how to pitch. I think they can pull a bullpen together, if they move some of the "meh" starters to the pen. They can't do that if they don't bring in outside starters until Gaterol and Blazovich and one other guy is ready.......

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I agree with all of that. I preached all of last year that they should be bringing guys up and down from AAA for the pen. Instead, they brought in a bunch of guys that could not be optioned, and now Nick Anderson is very good. This year they didn't do that, and Gonsalves got hurt (though I think they would have used him as a starter) and Romero has forgotten how to pitch. I think they can pull a bullpen together, if they move some of the "meh" starters to the pen. They can't do that if they don't bring in outside starters until Gaterol and Blazovich and one other guy is ready.......

Agreed.

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Gaterol is not likely to start the year in MN as a starter, but I could be wrong about that.

Graterol has looked pretty raw at times, is just 20 years old, and coming off a season where he pitched maybe 75 innings.

 

He's not starting 2020 in Minnesota. I hope he ends up there but he's not starting there, in my opinion.

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I’m curious why almost no one has suggested that perhaps Odorizzi should have started game one.

It’s what I would have done. Odorizzi has pitched considerably better since the break than Berrios. Also, I just feel Berrios would have fed off the home crowd more than Odorizzi will.

Whether it was #1 or 2, no question he should have gotten the ball in NYC. He's the guy with the most experience pitching in that place, by far. (OK, well, other than Pineda, but that's kind of different. God, we could have used him in this series.)

 

Then we could have a BP game at home, where those guys are more comfortable and confident.

 

 

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Graterol has looked pretty raw at times, is just 20 years old, and coming off a season where he pitched maybe 75 innings.

 

He's not starting 2020 in Minnesota. I hope he ends up there but he's not starting there, in my opinion.

I agree, he could use more seasoning. Really impressed with how he's handled himself up here so far, though.

 

But I really really really hope they stretch him out as a starter going forward.

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Agreed, but not too start next year. Dobnak is the only guy under contract other than Berrios likely to start the year as a starter.

Almost surely not. It'd be great if Graterol ends up contributing to the 2020 team in June or so but this front office needs to pretend he doesn't exist this offseason.

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That's fair. Still 6 other playoff teams that signed cheap FA, traded for minor leaguers or cheap veterans having good years, and developed their own guys. Like the Twins.

That's patently false.

 

The bulk of Atlanta's rotation is home grown. 

 

That's it. You have to do all of that stuff, AND add quality, to be successful. By the time the Twins minor league supplies the kind of pitching necessary to compete in the post season, if it ever does, much of the current roster won't be here any more. And then people will be saying just wait for the minor leagues to supply a lineup.

 

Go big, or go home.

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I was rooting for you guys to beat the Yankees. What a terrible series.

 

The AL Central is the worst division in baseball. If you get in the playoffs anything could happen. I doubt you would win 100 games in a stronger division, but, making the playoffs you had a chance to go all of the way. Good season.

 

Only one team wins the last game of the year. Hoping it is not mine though lots of better teams to overcome.

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That's patently false.

 

The bulk of Atlanta's rotation is home grown. 

 

That's it. You have to do all of that stuff, AND add quality, to be successful. By the time the Twins minor league supplies the kind of pitching necessary to compete in the post season, if it ever does, much of the current roster won't be here any more. And then people will be saying just wait for the minor leagues to supply a lineup.

 

Go big, or go home.

What part is false? Signing cheap free agents? Trading for minor leaguers or cheap vets having good years? Developing their own guys? 

 

What does "adding quality" mean? Signing cheap vets? Cuz that's what the 6 teams I listed did.

 

Milwaukee, Atlanta, Tampa, St Louis, Oakland, and Minnesota all made the post season without "going big." So again, what part is false?

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