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Front Page: Twins Game Recap (8/1): Dyson Implodes In Twins Debut


Game was lost in the top of the 9th, not the bottom. Cruz being forced at second on a clean hit by Kepler was a fluke and a half. Still the Twins only scored 4 runs and that is not enough to win most games.

In addition to using Dyson at all and pulling Pineda, why was Polanco playing almost next to Sano at 3rd on one of the hits that Dyson gave up that could have been a double play? Reminds me of when Gardenhire said he was looking at his lineup card when the 3rd baseman was way out of position. I don't care what the analytics said, Polanco was way out of position. Normal shortstop position = double play and game over. Shame to lose this one but, guess what? So did Cleveland. Cleveland lost their series, Twins won theirs and picked up a game.

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gut punch.

 

lots of blame to go around. Offense. Dyson. Poppen last night. Dyson. Baldelli's decision to use Dyson fresh off the plane. Dyson. A bullpen that features waaayyyyy too many "internal options." 

 

1000 times this. Why? Why take Pineda out after only 80 pitches (we "had" to utilize the PH option, Why?)? Pretty funny moment transpired on TV in real time- Bert Blyleven was about ready to leave the booth and go down to the dugout and throttle the entire braintrust- but he held off, and bit his tongue, apparently wanting to go out of his broadcast gig without controversy- the patented. Twins Happy Talk Way.

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I have to disagree with this, sure he's a "grown ass man" but he's not a robot. As fans we frequently forget these guys are human, as if their high salary is supposed to make the super human. He had zero time to get adjusted at all or prepare, coming from 3 time zones away, and was supposed to perform in a very high leverage situation. Imagine if you got hired at a new job all the way across the country and you were supposed to perform the second you got off the plane with no preparation or rest, most people would struggle

 

Dyson looked more hung over than jet-lagged.... just sayin'.

Edited by jokin
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I have to disagree with this, sure he's a "grown ass man" but he's not a robot. As fans we frequently forget these guys are human, as if their high salary is supposed to make the super human. He had zero time to get adjusted at all or prepare, coming from 3 time zones away, and was supposed to perform in a very high leverage situation. Imagine if you got hired at a new job all the way across the country and you were supposed to perform the second you got off the plane with no preparation or rest, most people would struggle

 

The Giants were playing in Philadelphia so no time zones were crossed getting to Miami. And being asked to protect a three run lead against a very bad team is not a high leverage situation. It didn't work but that's why teams play the games.

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The Giants were playing in Philadelphia so no time zones were crossed getting to Miami. And being asked to protect a three run lead against a very bad team is not a high leverage situation. It didn't work but that's why teams play the games.

Thanks for clarifying where he flew in from.

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The Twins have been very aggressive lately about shuttling pitchers to/from Rochester (and DFA).

 

I suspect they saw an opportunity here, after Poppen pitched Wednesday night, to shuttle him out and have Dyson available for Thursday, but it was probably

 

A. a tight squeeze, given it was a noon game Thursday and Dyson wasn't flying until the morning

 

B. unnecessary, given that Poppen and Rogers were the only relievers who pitched on Wednesday night.

 

I get that there can be an advantage to shuttling in fresh pitchers -- but when you have an 8-man bullpen, there's also an advantage in that you shouldn't *always* have to shuttle guys. We still had 6 relievers with a full day's rest heading into Thursday's game, without Dyson. (And 4 of those had at least 3 days worth of rest, 3 with 4+ days rest, and one -- Thorpe -- with a 5 days rest, now up to 6 days rest...)

Edited by spycake
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He's a National Leaguer - he pitched against the Marlins as recently as late May. Plus I'm sure there was a conversation with him before he took the mound. Plus he has a catcher to share the decision making with, in the moment. He's a veteran, and isn't asking the bullpen coach, "what do you call that wiggly pitch, again?"

 

He's got to make his pitches. That's all. And when he doesn't: Get'em tomorrow.

 

Scouting isn't just a matter of knowing what the player looks like, such that if you faced them 6 weeks ago you are good to go.  It is a matter of knowing what a player is struggling with, and what they are crushing.  It is a matter of knowing that, "hey, for the last 3 weeks this guy has been crushing high fastballs, so if you are going to miss, miss low."  It is a matter of watching them that series so you can find out what pitches they are trying to sit on.  In other words, it is juuuuuust a bit more advanced than trying to remember the name of your wiggly pitch.

 

It is commendable that Dyson wanted to go out there.  It is unlikely that he could have absorbed all of the intel that the twins had that could have been advantageous to him. 

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The problem with Warne's tweet is, if Rogers was available...and we know he was...its a three run lead, Rogers is the guy you've decided gets the 9th with a 3 run lead.

You put Rogers out there to start the 9th.

If Rogers cant be used 3 days in a row, what was he doing out there today?

What indeed?!

 

This, I think, is where Baldelli's inexperience showed. I believe he has done an excellent job as a manager this season because he and his staff plan ahead and prepare well (call it analytics, if you will). Sticking to a good plan helps the team to achieve consistent, predictable results. Of course, those predictable results include, sometimes, losing a game. In fact, good teams - playoff teams - lose about 40% of the time.

 

The run-up to Thursday's loss began on Wednesday night. Baldelli could easily have had another pitcher warmed up for mop up duty (Harper or May come to mind) in case Poppen had any difficulties. Bringing in Rogers for a second straight night should have eliminated Rogers from pitching on Thursday, which was just fine considering that a rested Dyson was on his way. In effect, Baldelli's actions said, "I'm going to do everything possible to ensure we win this game, and go into tomorrow knowing I don't have my best reliever available." An implicit acknowledgement that Rogers was NOT available to pitch three days in a row.

 

Thursday's game set up just fine for using Dyson in the 9th. He's a closer-caliber pitcher but this time he just didn't have it. And with the bases loaded, nobody out, the tying run on second and a win-probability already next to nil, the conventional wisdom is that you simply leave your 'closer' in....it is their game to win or lose. But that is where Baldelli chucked his plan out the window and made an emotional, last-ditch decision that he needed to somehow salvage the win. Hey, it was a valiant effort by Rogers, but as a result he threw 21 pitches on his third consecutive day of work. The game was still lost and now at least the next two games have a slightly lower win-probability because the best relief pitcher is unavailable. A worst-case scenario would be damage to Rogers' arm...an arm that will be needed for the post season.

 

The lessons for a rookie manager? Stick to the plan. Ad hoc decisions are usually poor decisions (and a whole lot more likely to be second-guessed!).

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Scouting isn't just a matter of knowing what the player looks like, such that if you faced them 6 weeks ago you are good to go.  It is a matter of knowing what a player is struggling with, and what they are crushing.  It is a matter of knowing that, "hey, for the last 3 weeks this guy has been crushing high fastballs, so if you are going to miss, miss low."  It is a matter of watching them that series so you can find out what pitches they are trying to sit on.  In other words, it is juuuuuust a bit more advanced than trying to remember the name of your wiggly pitch.

 

It is commendable that Dyson wanted to go out there.  It is unlikely that he could have absorbed all of the intel that the twins had that could have been advantageous to him. 

 

Did he forget where he put his control?  What part of intel is finding the strike zone?  He walked 7 batters in 51 innings all season and then walked 2 in 5 batters.  I get making every excuse why he did bad, but sometimes you just gotta chalk it up to he didn't have it and got beat.  He was throwing as hard as he usually does. 

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Did he forget where he put his control? What part of intel is finding the strike zone? He walked 7 batters in 51 innings all season and then walked 2 in 5 batters. I get making every excuse why he did bad, but sometimes you just gotta chalk it up to he didn't have it and got beat. He was throwing as hard as he usually does.

 

So...he exhibited unusual performance. What else might have been unusual about the circumstances?

 

Maybe it WAS random chance. But I think it’s reasonable for people to wonder if putting in a pitcher who literally arrived on your team mid-game was the wisest of choices. Particularly when there were multiple options, including the guy you’ve by default and action designated as your closer. The guy you went to anyway.

 

It was bizarre, risky, and most damning, completely unnecessary.

 

At the very least, for example, it would have been impossible for Dyson, the pitching coach, and the catcher to spend more than a few minutes...during the game mind you...to review the plan, what Dyson throws, the hitters due up, and on and on.

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Devasting Loss. This could be the game we look back on at the end of the season. Should have never happened. This one is totally on Rocco. Why do you bring in the new guy who wasn't even in the dugout when the game started? You don't have any confidence in anyone else to get three outs with a three run lead.? And why not leave Romo in to finish? We better hope we get a good outing out of Perez tonight. This homestand could very well be the defining point in the season even though it is early August.

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Did he forget where he put his control?  What part of intel is finding the strike zone?  He walked 7 batters in 51 innings all season and then walked 2 in 5 batters.  I get making every excuse why he did bad, but sometimes you just gotta chalk it up to he didn't have it and got beat.  He was throwing as hard as he usually does. 

 

That's fair! I don't mind us agreeing that he seemed off in this game. Though that is a very predictable result of realizing that you have to move and pack your bags and start a new job in a high leverage situation in less than 24 hours. Such that, once again, it was a weird choice for Baldelli to put him in.

 

However, my original point was purely debating whether or not Dyson had sufficient time to absorb all relevant scouting and analytic info that he might have needed/wanted because he faced 5 batters on the Marlins 5 weeks ago (accidentally said 6 earlier).  My position was and remains that it is odd to argue that Dyson would have been prepared as a result of facing these five batters five weeks ago, as baseball analytics involves way more than that.

 

Also, in modern baseball often the goal isn't to throw in the zone, but to get the batter to chase you out of the zone.  This is definitely some of Dyson's game.  He is not a "pitch to contact" guy.  In his most recent successful outing with the Giants, 60% of his throws were OUTSIDE of the strike zone.  In the game prior, he uncharacteristically threw only 45% outside of the strike zone.  Before that, in a successful save against the cubs, he only threw 4 of 15(!!!) pitches in the zone, for a crazy rate of throwing 73% outside of the strike zone.

 

In this game, he threw... 57% of his pitches outside of the strike zone.  In other words, this was a fairly regular rate for him.  So why was it unsuccessful?  Probably in part because of his crazy previous 24 hours.  However, it may in part have been caused by him not getting a chance to digest the scouting report, such that he did not know which pitches the batters would chase.  See how that all ties back together? :)

Edited by segagenesisgenius
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Recently, every new Twins reliever has imploded their first time out.

 

Dyson got it all out of his system and can now have his 0.00 ERA* the rest of the way.

 

*Unfortunately the infield defense will still allow plenty of runs to cross the plate.

Edited by Doomtints
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Recently, every new Twins reliever has imploded their first time out.

Debuts in relief for the Twins this year, before Dyson:

 

Romo - scoreless inning

Stashak - 2 scoreless innings

Thorpe - 2.2 IP, 1 R (relief debut, after 5 IP, 2 R starting debut)

Poppen - 4 IP, 3 R

Eades - 2 scoreless innings

Stewart - 4 scoreless innings (although he was a "primary pitcher" after an opener a few times last year)

Smeltzer - 4.1 IP, 1 R (relief debut, after 6 IP, 0 R starting debut)

Adams - 2 scoreless innings

Morin - 2 IP, 1 R

Parker - 1 IP, 1 R

Harper - 1 scoreless inning

 

I don't know if they count as implosions:

Perez - 3.2 IP, 3 R (we were up 8-0 at the time)

Romero - 2 IP, 3 R (we were up 15-4 at the time)

 

The only previous "implosion" Twins relief debut this year would seem to be:

De Jong - 1 IP, 4 R

 

And of course, Adrianza's 3 runs in 1 IP. :)

 

You're probably thinking of Andrew Vasquez too -- 3 runs without recording an out (just like Dyson!) in his lone 2019 appearance, although it wasn't his Twins pen debut -- he pitched for us a bit last year as well. If you count him, you probably also need to count Mejia (0.2 IP, 0 runs in 2019 debut, after 1 game in relief last year) and Littell (2 scoreless innings in 2019 debut, after a few games in relief last year).

 

In any case, I guess Dyson's best Twins reliever debut performance comps are currently Vasquez, De Jong, and Adrianza. That's comforting. :)

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Recently, every new Twins reliever has imploded their first time out.

More frequent would be recent Twins relievers imploding their *last* time out:

 

Parker - 0.1 IP, 4 R

Magill - 1 IP, 6 R

Morin - 1 IP, 4 R

Mejia - 0.2 IP, 3 R

Adams - 0.2 IP, 5 R

Romero - 0 IP, 2 R

Hildenberger - 0.1 IP, 3 R

 

And of course, De Jong, Vasquez, and Adrianza count in this group too. :)

 

Hopefully Romero and Hildenberger (and not Adrianza) eventually get the opportunity for a better send-off.

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Somehow this loss bothered me more than any other this season.  I don't understand putting Dyson in when he only arrived a few innings before and they had reasonable options in the bullpen. This was a game the Twins should not have lost. I know there are always games like this in any season, but this one continues to bother me. I hope the team is better able to shake this off than I seem to be.

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FWIW, I think Littell's 10 days on optional assignment were up after Wednesday July 31st, since he was optioned before the game on July 22nd.

 

So they could have flown Littell to Miami on Wednesday night, planning for him to be active for the Thursday noon game, rather than rush Dyson into town on Thursday morning. (Not that they really needed Littell or Dyson for the game, given how rested most of the pen was.)

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I'm glad someone brought up Polanco.
He's certainly done enough this year to earn a mulligan from me.
And there is certainly plenty of blame to go around today (Hello bats, just because you assumed the game was over when you handed Dyson a 3 run lead with 3 outs to go, doesn't mean you pack away the bats), but if Polanco wasn't afraid of getting his uniform dirty we might have held on in the 9th.

First  thing i thought was why didnt he knock the ball down,  Thats his 1st job . not trying to think ahead to a d.p. or he was just LAZY

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By the way, did the Twins put Trevor May in the Witness Protection Program or something? 

 

The only thing I can imagine is that they're frantically working behind the scenes to fix May and the pitching coaches are asking Rocco for a little more time.

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Didn't see the game. Haven't read these comments. Here's my take. I have enough confidence in Falvine to believe they believe Rocco has managerial talent. But all rookies, even talented ones, make mistakes. Sending a pitcher who is brand new to everything and everyone and who arrives during the third inning of his first game with his new team is probably not the best choice to enter the game in a save situation. At this point the best thing is to learn from the mistake and move on.

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Didn't see the game. Haven't read these comments. Here's my take. I have enough confidence in Falvine to believe they believe Rocco has managerial talent. But all rookies, even talented ones, make mistakes. Sending a pitcher who is brand new to everything and everyone and who arrives during the third inning of his first game with his new team is probably not the best choice to enter the game in a save situation. At this point the best thing is to learn from the mistake and move on.

Appreciate the take! We ran out of pitchforks anyway. :)

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FWIW, I think Littell's 10 days on optional assignment were up after Wednesday July 31st, since he was optioned before the game on July 22nd.

 

So they could have flown Littell to Miami on Wednesday night, planning for him to be active for the Thursday noon game, rather than rush Dyson into town on Thursday morning. (Not that they really needed Littell or Dyson for the game, given how rested most of the pen was.)

I do think we need to get Littell back up here, he was doing well in close games and it seemed Baldelli was starting to trust him.
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