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DaveW
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Or, to beat a dead horse, maybe not sell at the deadline.

Or if you sell, at least don't sell just to acquire a bunch of AAAA upside type guys.

 

This is what happens when ownership goes "cheap" on the GM search. These guys have done zero to help out this team for 2017 or the future.

 

Unreal.

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Yeah, I can agree. As much as I want to see Melville and Gee, it is more of an after-the-fact, out of contention type of look. I would rather see another start from Jorge, or a callup of Romero (who should've received one of these golden ticket double-header looksees, this is made for this type of thing).

 

And if you have a roster spot to add a guy, go ahead and do Gonsalves, if you HAVE to add him in the off-season anyways. You want to put your best stuff out there, and even at their worst, which you can't predict, a hard-throwing prospect can stink just as bad as AAA guys, but you have somewhere forward to go. AAA guys take a roster spot, have to spill thru waivers again (though at this late point they probably wouldn't be claimed).

 

Would I rather see Kepler or Rosario at DH and the speed of Granite in left or right? Hey, I want to see Garver catching if the pitcher IS an AAA call-up...maybe he has worked with the guy, yes, and if Garver is going to make this team it will be as the second catcher for now.

 

Which also brings up the point, play-off rosters need to be set September 1, so who shuffles in from the minors replacing someone not producing on the major league roster? Sure, you have some movement because of the names on the DL that can come back (Sano, Grossman, Mejia, Santiago). But that is a whole new can of worms that I do hope the Twins have to face.

 

I can wish, can't I?

 

Someone thought Gee and Melville could win in this important series. You have to respect their judgement. But, man, what a season this has been.

 

 

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Are you talking about a possible wild card game or a possible game 163? As I recall from previous game 163s, it's an unlimited roster (well, 40 anyway).

 

 

The so-called Wild Card game.

 

Although if two teams have to battle it out to be the fifth team that will be great too. Real drama to determine who gets to play another game of manufactured drama.

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Gonsalves is a flyball pitcher who still is working on his command. Romero is on an innings limit. It is what it is. You can't create a pitching staff out of thin air, which is what a subset of posters on this board demand from the new front office.

I still think Romero should have gotten Jorge's spot starts, and if he looked good, we could have easily adjusted his July/August workload to potentially keep him available through September, perhaps for spots starts and pen duty.

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Respectfully, I have to disagree.

 

Now understand, I object to these two guys BOTH starting today in a double header. I think it invites a potentially bad day W-L wise, as well as an overuse, potentially, of the bullpen.

 

I am also a huge fan and believer in Gonsalves. I can't wait for him to make his first appearance, and I truly believe he will be a keeper.

 

The team is on a roll and playing well. But with so many consecutive games to be played, and TWO double headers so close together, SOMEONE has to start these two games. Could Gonsalves have been one of them? Yes. But again, despite being a fan and believer, his very first start could also invite the same results. And for whatever reason...a somewhat different debate...the FO wants to give Gonsalves a little more AAA time. Do you pitch Slegers and/or someone else on short rest? Does that solve the problem? Gee has some ML experience and even some solid results here and there. He's also done well in his brief tenure with the Twins as a long man. Melville was a top prospect of the Royals a few years ago, and a top 100 prospect. He had TJ surgery and never seemed to find himself. For whatever reason, he seemed to again and the Twins gave him a shot. Only 27 still, he's been performing very well at Rochester the past couple of months. Has he done something to NOT warrant at least a look-see?

 

It's not an ideal situation to be sure. But I think it's one of those hard decisions you just have to make and hope it works out. Now, the first game didn't turn out so well, though the team battled back. AS of now, in the second game, they have a big early lead.

 

Slegers will be back. I would bet real money, despite not being a betting man, that Gonsalves will make an appearance yet this season, very possibly as a SP. And I feel Gibson's days as a SP may be numbered. But today is just a tough day with tough and imperfect decisions.

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I still think Romero should have gotten Jorge's spot starts, and if he looked good, we could have easily adjusted his July/August workload to potentially keep him available through September, perhaps for spots starts and pen duty.

 

It certainly doesn't seem that way, based on how little he's pitching in AA. And considering his raw stuff, he really wasn't all that dominant in Chattanooga anyway. There is no reason to think he would be an upgrade over the AAAA options at this particular point in time, yet the Twins would be taking a risk with his development. That's the kind of idea that works great on a message board but is more problematic in real life.

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It certainly doesn't seem that way, based on how little he's pitching in AA. And considering his raw stuff, he really wasn't all that dominant in Chattanooga anyway. There is no reason to think he would be an upgrade over the AAAA options at this particular point in time, yet the Twins would be taking a risk with his development. That's the kind of idea that works great on a message board but is more problematic in real life.

Did they risk Jorge's development?

 

Romero was pretty darn dominant in AA from late May to the beginning of August (up until his last 2 starts). 13 starts, over a K per inning, 1.40 ERA. Wouldn't have cost anything to take a look at him for those spot starts in early July. That's the kind of chance I think this team might regret passing on.

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Did they risk Jorge's development?

Romero was pretty darn dominant in AA from late May to the beginning of August (up until his last 2 starts). 13 starts, over a K per inning, 1.40 ERA. Wouldn't have cost anything to take a look at him for those spot starts in early July. That's the kind of chance I think this team might regret passing on.

 

Well considering that Romero hasn't pitched many innings in a season, they might have known he was wearing down. Regardless, they know far more than you do about how he looked and whether he was in a position to bolster the MLB club. Jorge is overrated as a prospect, so the front office wasn't too concerned about moving him up and down a bit.

 

Even aside from the stark information asymmetry, the underlying logic you and others rely on is that Falvey actually prefers losing. Why else would he pass on obvious moves that even message board posters with zero personal knowledge are able to identify?

 

No amount of incompetence could explain it, since he could just read Twins Daily and be all set. No, that can't be it . . . I suppose he's still in the employ of Cleveland?

Edited by drivlikejehu
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I posted this elsewhere today, but perhaps Falvey was conservative because he didn't expect the Twins to be in this position. I mean, he basically admitted that at the trade deadline in regards to some MLB moves -- is it really that unreasonable that he also could have been overly conservative with minor leaguers too? Maybe they set their plan for Romero to be available for Chattanooga's playoffs, or only challenging Gonsalves at AAA once they had a good AA replacement ready to take his place (i.e. Littell and Thorpe).

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I think all the hand wringing and speculation is unwarranted. They needed someone to make a spot start. Melville has been pitching well for Rochester. He got a shot. Now he'll go back down. Gee, on the other hand, has pitched pretty well out of the bullpen. There's no reason to think he's incapable of keeping them in a game for 5 or 6 innings. I really think it's as simple as that. The despair over this is ... melodramatic.

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Or if you sell, at least don't sell just to acquire a bunch of AAAA upside type guys.

This is what happens when ownership goes "cheap" on the GM search. These guys have done zero to help out this team for 2017 or the future.

Unreal.

 

Get a grip. This is what happens when you play 7 games in 5 days.  Mejia, Enns are hurt, Romero pitched on Friday. How many pitchers do you expect them to have at their disposal

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I posted this elsewhere today, but perhaps Falvey was conservative because he didn't expect the Twins to be in this position. I mean, he basically admitted that at the trade deadline in regards to some MLB moves -- is it really that unreasonable that he also could have been overly conservative with minor leaguers too? Maybe they set their plan for Romero to be available for Chattanooga's playoffs, or only challenging Gonsalves at AAA once they had a good AA replacement ready to take his place (i.e. Littell and Thorpe).

 

That's fine, but what makes it more than message board fan fiction? Their stats don't make it obvious. The Twins didn't see them as clearly MLB-ready. What is the factual basis for your position?

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Get a grip. This is what happens when you play 7 games in 5 days. Mejia, Enns are hurt, Romero pitched on Friday. How many pitchers do you expect them to have at their disposal

Well, they knew about both doubleheaders about 48 hours before Romero's start on Friday, and something like 4 days before Gonsalves' start, so I am not sure those are really valid excuses...

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Well, they knew about both doubleheaders about 48 hours before Romero's start on Friday, and something like 4 days before Gonsalves' start, so I am not sure those are really valid excuses...

 

Romero had 11 days off before his start on Saturday.  I don't know the circumstances surrounding that, but I'm guessing they are treating him with kids gloves off his surgery, and didn't want to make a decision Wednesday to say "you're actually going to start tomorrow in MN" or "take an extra 2 days and start Monday"

 

As for Gonalves, he probably would've been my choice, but who knows.. maybe they thought Melville gave them a better chance to win than a kid making his MLB debut. 

 

The White Sox hit left handers significantly better than right handers, for what it's worth. 6th in the league in wRC+ vs Left Handers, 24th in the league in wRC+ vs Right Handers

 

Pretty defensible decisions, far from optimal circumstances

 

 

Edited by alarp33
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That's fine, but what makes it more than message board fan fiction? Their stats don't make it obvious. The Twins didn't see them as clearly MLB-ready. What is the factual basis for your position?

Romero's stats this summer were great. He was a sleeper / fast riser pick for many (even TD staff). He has been getting great reviews from evaluators. He was already on the 40-man roster. His innings limit was known in advance so it could be mitigated somewhat. All I was saying is the Twins could have set him up better for a potential contribution. The Twins position is also reasonable, but I simply have a mildly different opinion. No need to bludgeon me with appeal to authority arguments over it, and to keep demanding levels of evidence and certainty that couldn't possibly exist on a fan message board.

 

I'm out on this topic for now.

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Risk/reward for using up an option year on Gonsalves or Romero. There is no risk on using up the option years an the players they have used.

Romero has already used an option (like all players on the 40-man, he had to be optioned out in spring training if he didn't make the MLB club).

 

Gonsalves wouldn't use an option anymore unless he was added and sent back for at least 20 days before the end of the season.

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I think all the hand wringing and speculation is unwarranted. They needed someone to make a spot start. Melville has been pitching well for Rochester. He got a shot. Now he'll go back down. Gee, on the other hand, has pitched pretty well out of the bullpen. There's no reason to think he's incapable of keeping them in a game for 5 or 6 innings. I really think it's as simple as that. The despair over this is ... melodramatic.

+1. If the DH were tomorrow, Slegers would have started over Melville. Sometimes $!* happens and you have to make due. 

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Romero has already used an option (like all players on the 40-man, he had to be optioned out in spring training if he didn't make the MLB club).

Gonsalves wouldn't use an option anymore unless he was added and sent back for at least 20 days before the end of the season.

Yeah, I knew that gut there was a different thought that could get people upset

 

Pitchers with an ERA of 3 and under at AAA who have appeared in the majors this year

Ryan Pressly

Michael Tonkin

Dilon Gee

Kyle Gibson

Alex Wimmers

Tim Melville

Nik Turley

Drew Ruckinski

Dietrich Enns

 

as well as the  good news of Busenitz, Hildenberger, and somebody named Berrios  People can all ooh and aah over minor league stats, but it really does not project to major league stats.  In developing Romero and Gonsalves does it really benefit them developmental wise to come up and throw in game batting practice?  The  ability to steal a game was there for Turley, Melville, Enns and Jorge. It worked once, but not twice for Jorge. Has Jorge come back and dominated at AA? Done worse? Continued to be both bad and  awesome?  Risk/reward for the development of a pitcher.

 

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There frankly is no reason why Melville should have taken the hill, his stinker of a game cost this team an otherwise cake wake of a winnable game.

 

Conservative nonsense.

 

Also why not stretch out Duffey for the rotation?

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