Jump to content
Twins Daily
  • Create Account

Blow It Up?


DocBauer
Provisional Member

 

We've discussed most of this

1) I don't think it's a big deal since Plouffe will be back in a few games.  The other option would have been to keep Kepler on the bench for another few days.  Realistically, it's not a big deal.

 

 

I believe Plouffe is eligible to return on May 3rd.  So they would potentially play 7 games with a 2 man bench, and that's IF Plouffe is ready to go on that day.  

 

Umm realistically, that is a very big deal. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 62
  • Created
  • Last Reply

 

I believe Plouffe is eligible to return on May 3rd.  So they would potentially play 7 games with a 2 man bench, and that's IF Plouffe is ready to go on that day.  

 

Umm realistically, that is a very big deal. 

Umm, then they can add Maestro to the 40 man.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

That wasn't the discussion. I know they CAN do that - you said its not a big deal to just wait for Plouffe

Yeah, I don't think it's that big of deal (although I was thinking he was back May 1st, not May 3rd, with an off day thursday).  I suspect most teams end up playing with short benches a few times every year for a variety of reasons.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

Yet now Houston has regressed to the point where a postseason appearance is extremely unlikely... Maybe even more unlikely than the Twins' chances of making the postseason.

 

So maybe their rebuild wasn't so stupendously awesome... Or maybe it's early and we shouldn't throw too many stones at anyone.

 

Ding! Ding! Ding!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The Twins have been inconsistent and it has been frustrating but there have been six blown saves so far this year - first in the majors. All of last year they had 15 and were near the bottom in that stat category. If they had only blown two they'd be 10-10 and we would all be saying that there is hope because the offense hasn't performed to its' expectations. A healthy and typical Glen Perkins would definitely have been a huge asset for the Twins but that hasn't happened - such is baseball.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Doc,

I think it's too early to really start discussing blowing things up.    However, you mention too much talent a lot in your post.   No questions the twins have a lot of potential, especially with our young talent.    But there is a reason that most national people picked the twins to win between 75-78 games and finish 4th or last in our division.   Last year was nice and surprising, but you just can't rely on all of that young talent coming through at the same time.

 

We all remember the article, from last year, that outlined how the Twins were one of the luckiest teams, in the history of MLB (offensively) last year.   We certainly debated it on this forum.

 

My expectations were tempered like most of the national folks.   I think maybe we have been slightly too optimistic due to the gift that we had last year.

 

I guess my point is, yes this start stinks.   Yes the kids have really struggled (well the vets too but we were not counting on them to become stars or near stars), but it is still very early.   With a little better roster management by the FO, and some better in game management by our skipper, I think the Twins will start showing improvements, albeit small over the course of the year.   Hopefully, by the end of the year, the sample size on our young players will be enough that pinning realistic hopes on them isn't as much of a stretch as it was this year.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

The Twins have been inconsistent and it has been frustrating but there have been six blown saves so far this year - first in the majors. All of last year they had 15 and were near the bottom in that stat category. If they had only blown two they'd be 10-10 and we would all be saying that there is hope because the offense hasn't performed to its' expectations. A healthy and typical Glen Perkins would definitely have been a huge asset for the Twins but that hasn't happened - such is baseball.

This isn't correct.  You're double/triple counting blown saves (they had 3 blown saves in one game Sunday).

 

The Twins have let leads get away from the bullpen in four games, not six (4/7, 4/8, 4/10, and 4/24).  If they had no blown saves, they'd be 10-10.  With two, they'd be 8-12.

 

All of which is pretty pointless anyway.  Baseball games are 9 (or more) innings long.  Having a lead, or being tied after 5, doesn't equal a win.  That's what many of us said all winter...this bullpen isn't going to hold up.  And it isn't even May 1st, and lookie here...the bullpen hasn't held up.

 

A healthy Glen Perkins wasn't something that should have been depended on, both because he hasn't been healthy or reliable the last two years, and because even if he was currently healthy and reliable, he can't be used for the entirety of the 6th-9th innings every time the team has a lead.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

This isn't correct.  You're double/triple counting blown saves (they had 3 blown saves in one game Sunday).

 

The Twins have let leads get away from the bullpen in four games, not six (4/7, 4/8, 4/10, and 4/24).  If they had no blown saves, they'd be 10-10.  With two, they'd be 8-12.

 

All of which is pretty pointless anyway.  Baseball games are 9 (or more) innings long.  Having a lead, or being tied after 5, doesn't equal a win.  That's what many of us said all winter...this bullpen isn't going to hold up.  And it isn't even May 1st, and lookie here...the bullpen hasn't held up.

 

A healthy Glen Perkins wasn't something that should have been depended on, both because he hasn't been healthy or reliable the last two years, and because even if he was currently healthy and reliable, he can't be used for the entirety of the 6th-9th innings every time the team has a lead.

Yep. I was advocating a less aggressive approach to the bullpen than many (I wanted one guy, not 2-3) but that's quibbling over details, not a real disagreement over the problem.

 

But now that Perkins is out and May/Jepsen have been shaky, we're seeing the worst-case situation play out.

 

I don't believe in basing acquisitions on a worst-case scenario but I also don't believe in basing acquisitions on a best-case scenario, either... And that's what Ryan seemed to do this offseason.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think the blown saves and squandered games by the bullpen just validate why the it was the #1 concern in the offseason. Perkins was showing signs of decline, and everybody else was a pretty big question mark. We went into the year with a strategy of "wait for guys to play their way out of a job then replace with untested rookies". That's a plan with a built-in component of failure and it cost us enough games that we are looking at a lost season before April is out. TR should have expected this lineup/defense would have some growing pains and boom/bust cycles, so he should have mitigated instead of compounded that by setting up the bullpen to succeed early.

 

 

There's no one coming to save this team this year, and we're all tired of dragging out the losing. There's no point in hanging on to vets that won't be part of the next of the next winning team just we can win a few extra games. I like our vets, but we have to face reality. The best thing you can do now is invest in next year by getting the rookies as much playing time as they can handle.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

The Astros have been to the World Series with a previous regime, years later blew things up in a rebuild, and have a won a playoff series with a rebuilt team... all since the Twins last won a single playoff game

 

"And the Padres continue to try to rebuild by draft and free agency and fail miserably. Terry Ryan is a Golden God!"

We can all do the unfair one team to one team comparison.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

we are looking at a lost season before April is out . . 

 

Man, people are so negative. It's April 26th. The season hasn't gone well but the Twins have lost a lot of close games and we're only 12% of the way through the season. Tons of baseball left and the Twins' season is certainly not lost. 

 

If the Twins rebound, you better not try to enjoy it. :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

In 22 seasons since 1994, they won exactly as many post-season series as Houston did last season.  Houston had one season after their rebuilding.  Ryan (and the Ryan build FO during his retirement) had 22.  Also Houston has been in the World Series in 2005 and won a post-season series in 2004.

 

Is Billy Beane a bad GM because the A's lose in the playoffs a lot?

 

The playoffs are a crapshoot (see the Royals, Kansas City). Blaming GMs for a lack of postseason success is kind of bogus. You build a team to get to the playoffs and TR has proven capable of doing that in the past (which isn't to say there aren't things wrong with his actions from time to time but let's stop treating him like he's incompetent.)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

Lunhow has made a lot of mistakes, you listed my three least favorite moves of his. They, imo, diverted from plan last year when they competed earlier than they thought.........

 

Putting aside what another GM does.....

 

How do you feel about a 2 man bench?

How do you feel about the bullpen being the top priority this offseason, and then this is done?

How do you feel about losing their 3rd catcher to make room for a corner OF that didn't want to play?

How do you feel about the 40 man roster having almost no positional players, so if Buxton couldn't hit, your next best option as Mastro or Rosario, and then playing Arcia and Sano both in the field?

How do you feel about them admitting they didn't have a plan for winning Park?

 

I could go on and on, if I went back to last year.....that's all happened this year, and it is only April.

 

1) Rumor is that Berrios is moving up. I'm very comfortable losing the eminently replaceable Hicks if it means getting Berrios on the 40 man.

 

Also, has there ever been a player more feted on TD than Hicks over the past few days? He's a 3rd catcher and by definition eminently replaceable. I mean, I don't love losing him but it's not the apocalypse. He almost certainly was never going to play for the Twins in any meaningful way this year and Juan Centeno is perfectly capable of being Hicks. I can buy that Pat Dean should have been the one on waivers but to argue there is some massive gulf between Hicks and Dean is laughable as is the idea that the Twins AAA catcher is some precious gem.

 

Perhaps we should learn to wait a day or two before throwing stones next time??

 

2) Two man bench is a very temporary thing which happened due to a very long extra inning game at the same time a starter got banged up (but hasn't hit the DL). These things happen. If TR was planning on doing this for a week, then we can get upset. Until then, let's chill.

 

3) Arcia and Sano have hit enough to get to play in the field. That's not a terrible thing.  And Mastro is the 25th guy for a few weeks. Again, let's chill, that's not some huge deal. He's a useful piece as a pinch runner and late inning defensive sub.

 

4) No one should make plans to win a posting system bid, that would be foolish. Not having a set plan isn't the same as not thinking it through. They said "Hey, getting another good player is a good problem to have." I agree with them and think you can easily defend their actions since (saving Plouffe for depth/to wait out a better trade market).

 

5) They didn't like the market for relief pitchers because they didn't want a 3 year deal because of guys coming up. I can see both sides but trusting youth is not a sign of bad judgement. And Abad has been fantastic so far and we should give them some credit for that. 

 

We just need to calm down the relentless negativity. Sometimes teams lose games. Sometimes plans don't work out. The Twins future is as bright as it ever was and I congratulate the front office for not doing anything too monumentally stupid chasing immediate results.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

"And the Padres continue to try to rebuild by draft and free agency and fail miserably. Terry Ryan is a Golden God!"

We can all do the unfair one team to one team comparison.

 

Sure, you could do that. If you want to set the bar low and be happy with just exceeding it, you're free to do that. It's certainly easier. Personally, I hope for a little more out of my time, money, and emotional investment. I think TR does a lot of things well, but this isn't a short sample size. I think 22 years is a pretty good trial run to see what someone is capable of.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

I believe Plouffe is eligible to return on May 3rd.  So they would potentially play 7 games with a 2 man bench, and that's IF Plouffe is ready to go on that day.  

 

Umm realistically, that is a very big deal. 

 

Within the next few days they will know if (A) Santana is headed to the DL or (B) Santana can pitch and thus Duffey can go back down. In either case, someone (likely Mastrioni) will be up with the Twins within a day or two. They're not in NL parks anymore so really, the two man bench is not a big deal. Much ado about nothing. These things happen due to injuries and a 16 inning game.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Provisional Member

 

Within the next few days they will know if (A) Santana is headed to the DL or ( :cool: Santana can pitch and thus Duffey can go back down. In either case, someone (likely Mastrioni) will be up with the Twins within a day or two. They're not in NL parks anymore so really, the two man bench is not a big deal. Much ado about nothing. These things happen due to injuries and a 16 inning game.

 

Thanks for the update. Duffey could've been sent down yesterday.  If a 2 man bench isn't a big deal why don't other teams employ it? 16 inning game? Every pitcher that pitched yesterday has been on the roster all year, and were on the roster during the 16 inning game

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

Sure, you could do that. If you want to set the bar low and be happy with just exceeding it, you're free to do that. It's certainly easier. Personally, I hope for a little more out of my time, money, and emotional investment. I think TR does a lot of things well, but this isn't a short sample size. I think 22 years is a pretty good trial run to see what someone is capable of.

 

Aren't you glad he isn't selling out to win now??? I enjoy that the Twins trusted Buxton to try MLB and were smart enough to send him to AAA when he needed it. He's not a delicate flower and can handle it. The Twins have made (or not made) moves this offseason and season with the next 5-6 years in mind, not the next two weeks in mind. That's the right thing to do.

 

Expectations were ridiculously high for this season. We need to tamp it down and enjoy the good things - Oswaldo's late inning heroics, Joe being Joe, Dozier starting to heat up. This is supposed to be fun and unless you get joy out of endlessly critiquing the front office, we've lost sight of this!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

Thanks for the update. Duffey could've been sent down yesterday.  If a 2 man bench isn't a big deal why don't other teams employ it? 16 inning game? Every pitcher that pitched yesterday has been on the roster all year, and were on the roster during the 16 inning game

 

Yeah, except that if they send down Duffey now they can't bring him back up for Santana's next start (gotta wait ten days). So they actually can't send him down (especially if the rumors are right and they're planning on bringing Berrios up to replace Milone). They need to see what Santana is feeling like before making that decision. I think having Duffey start rather than Alex Meyers is more valuable than not having as many cheerleaders on the bench for one or two games. 

 

It's not ideal, that's why teams don't do it often. But for two days its hardly the calamity the TD boards make it seem. It didn't cost the Twins at all yesterday and it won't again today. This is an utterly defensible set of moves forced on TR by some unusual things happening in the last few days. Give him 48 hours to untangle it.

 

The goal is not to tax your pen insanely hard early in the year, it tends to have negative effects on the season and their careers. The Twins have been able to do that by carrying more pitchers.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Provisional Member

 

Yeah, except that if they send down Duffey now they can't bring him back up for Santana's next start (gotta wait ten days). So they actually can't send him down (especially if the rumors are right and they're planning on bringing Berrios up to replace Milone). They need to see what Santana is feeling like before making that decision. I think having Duffey start rather than Alex Meyers is more valuable than not having as many cheerleaders on the bench for one or two games. 

 

Tommy Milone didn't like, disappear.  He's still on the roster and capable of making a start on Sunday if Santana needs to go on the DL.  Alex Meyer is also on the roster.  So they actually have 8 starting pitchers on the current roster (and that's not counting Trevor May, who SHOULD be a starter)

 

Edit: Oh ya, there's an off day on Thursday.  So you technically could skip Santana's spot in general.  Tell me again why Duffey CANT be sent down

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

Yeah, except that if they send down Duffey now they can't bring him back up for Santana's next start (gotta wait ten days). So they actually can't send him down (especially if the rumors are right and they're planning on bringing Berrios up to replace Milone). They need to see what Santana is feeling like before making that decision. I think having Duffey start rather than Alex Meyers is more valuable than not having as many cheerleaders on the bench for one or two games. 

 

It's not ideal, that's why teams don't do it often. But for two days its hardly the calamity the TD boards make it seem. It didn't cost the Twins at all yesterday and it won't again today. This is an utterly defensible set of moves forced on TR by some unusual things happening in the last few days. Give him 48 hours to untangle it.

 

The goal is not to tax your pen insanely hard early in the year, it tends to have negative effects on the season and their careers. The Twins have been able to do that by carrying more pitchers.

 

Maybe the manager should use Meyer and others then, and not tax the same guys over and over?

 

Are you sure it is only 2 days? What if it is 7, then is it a problem? 

 

This arose because they wanted more pitchers, needed them, and didn't use the new guy. 

 

If this is really about Duffey and Santana, the easiest thing to do is just call up Meyer and have him start and DL Duffey or send him down. It really isn't all that hard at all. If you can go with no bench for 2-7 days, you can start Meyer for 1-2 games.....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

Unless there is a major turnaround soon, this organization is meeting the proverbial point between a rock and a hard place. At what point, then, do we just blow this thing up? At what point do we just face push come to shove and lose money, cut bait, blow a couple players out, keep the nucleus of talent, and just audition youth and potential?

 

soon.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

Tommy Milone didn't like, disappear.  He's still on the roster and capable of making a start on Sunday if Santana needs to go on the DL.  Alex Meyer is also on the roster.  So they actually have 8 starting pitchers on the current roster (and that's not counting Trevor May, who SHOULD be a starter)

 

Edit: Oh ya, there's an off day on Thursday.  So you technically could skip Santana's spot in general.  Tell me again why Duffey CANT be sent down

 

May is not stretched out to start so that's down to 7.

 

Meyer was brought up to help in the pen and is not known for going long in games. If you make him a starter you haven't helped your pen (and likely hurt them since he's unlikely to go longer than 5 in a start). That's 6 starters.

 

Santana can't start but isn't quite at the DL yet (I imagine we'll know one way or the other by tomorrow). That's 5.

 

Depending on what happens with Berrios/Milone you may end up with a 6th if they keep Milone when they bring up Berrios.

 

They could skip someone but modern teams like to take advantage of rest days to give everyone an extra day's rest. We could disagree with that but also can see that it's not unreasonable to want to stick to a 5 man rotation even with a day off.

 

It's not a matter of Duffey CAN'T be sent down but of TR seeing a scuffling pen and unstable pitching rotation and saying, "Hey, a two man bench is no big deal for a few days while we figure out the staff."

 

I promise you it won't last longer than tomorrow and that it will almost certainly have no negative impact on the Twins winning or losing games.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Provisional Member

 

May is not stretched out to start so that's down to 7.

 

 

 

No, it's not

 

Gibson

Hughes

Santana

Milone

Duffey

Nolasco

Berrios

Meyer

 

I can't tell if you're just being intentionally obtuse or not, but I'll just end this and agree to disagree

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

Maybe the manager should use Meyer and others then, and not tax the same guys over and over?

 

Are you sure it is only 2 days? What if it is 7, then is it a problem? 

 

This arose because they wanted more pitchers, needed them, and didn't use the new guy. 

 

If this is really about Duffey and Santana, the easiest thing to do is just call up Meyer and have him start and DL Duffey or send him down. It really isn't all that hard at all. If you can go with no bench for 2-7 days, you can start Meyer for 1-2 games.....

 

If it is 7 it is a problem and TR needs to be checked for dementia. But I'll bet you almost anything that come Friday AM the Twins will have a normal bench.

 

Meyer was brought up to help the pen out and I think that's where they want him to stay. And again, I think a lot of this timing is tied to Berrios coming up and the Santana DL decision. They needed time for that and a two man bench for a game or so isn't the worst.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

No, it's not

 

Gibson

Hughes

Santana

Milone

Duffey

Nolasco

Berrios

Meyer

 

Gibson (1)

Hughes (2)

Santana (not capable of making a start?, DL decision tomorrow)

Milone (3?, Berrios coming up would mean the Twins have soured on him, as they should)

Duffey (4?)

Nolasco (5)

Berrios (not up yet, if up replacing Milone)

Meyer (bullpen)

 

These are my predictions:

 

(1) Berrios onto the 40 man, up to the majors, Milone to the pen, O'Rourke to the minors.

(2) Santana either to DL tomorrow with Duffey in the rotation or Santana scheduled to start and Duffey heads back to the minors

(3) Duffey/Santana's space is taken by Mastrioni, who serves as a late inning defensive sub and pinch runner for Sano/Arcia.

 

This would leave the Twins with a rotation of: Gibson, Hughes, Duffey/Santana, Berrios, Nolasco. Their pen becomes: May, Jepsen, Abad, Tonkin, Pressley, Milone, Meyer and Fien.

 

This whole thing becomes about (1) replacing Milone with Berrios without losing Milone (2) Giving Santana a day to see if the DL is in his future and (3) Giving the pen Meyer so they have some depth they can use.

 

If having a two man bench for a few days gives the Twins the clarity to get Berrios and potentially Duffey in the rotation, I am all for it. And Meyers in the pen is just a nice little bonus because if he performs well, maybe if/when the Twins Perkins back, they get rid of Fien.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

 If you can go with no bench for 2-7 days, you can start Meyer for 1-2 games.....

 

I think this is our disconnect. I see the 2 man bench as the equivalent of the 3rd catcher syndrome - it could hurt you but is so unlikely that it's not really worth making doomsday plans for. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

The Twins Daily Caretaker Fund
The Twins Daily Caretaker Fund

You all care about this site. The next step is caring for it. We’re asking you to caretake this site so it can remain the premiere Twins community on the internet.

×
×
  • Create New...