Printable View
Cause it was coming Dave, I didnt think it would be this bad and this fast but I knew the down side on it's way. NTM playing in the AL Central covers alot of things.Quote:
Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave
The poors trades, the poor drafts, the poor signings. They were easy to gloss over when they team was in contention, but sooner of later it was all gonna hit the major league team and f*ck if it didn't hit them hard.
But, to be fair, the stuff they were doing a couple years ago left them in the predicament they're in now.Quote:
Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave
Yep, he was a good pick. TJ surgery is unfortunate but I'm glad the Twins made a pick like that. (Just that Trout turned out to be some super insane talent).Quote:
Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave
You know, we're seeing the same convenient memories here from the same Twins bashers. DJP, the way-overused pitch to contact mantra and the same old soft tosser crap gets thrown out like the garbage it is. You appear to recall almost nothing from the scouting reports on Wimmers at the time he was drafted. What did his FB top out at during his collegiate career, DJP? Many scouts had him pegged as a 2-3 starter with an acceptable ability to miss bats. And Mike, help me out with how different the scouting reports were for Baker versus Wimmers. Why did Baker fall to the Twins instead of being scooped up later in the first round like Gibson and Wimmers?
Had the Twins let Santana walk and taken the comp picks instead of getting a grab bag from the Mets, they may have been able to have Gibson, Trout and Tyler Skaggs had Santana's Elias ranking in the AL remained higher than Francisco Rodriguez's and Mark Teixeiria's following the 2008 season. Those two players were what netted the Angel's those two high ceiling picks in 2009.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seth Stohs
Everyone did agree Wimmers was the closest to the big leagues and before the draft, everyone also agreed that he was going to the Twins at pick 21. So at least 20 other teams agreed that taking upside is a better move than playing it safe, yet every scout, analyst and agent had the Twins pegged perfectly.
I did not pay attention to scouting reports when baker was in the minors. No idea.*
*edited for spelling...
Oh, and thrylos, Trout would be languishing in AA if he were a Twin? I call complete bulls*it on you there. A future all-star languishing in AA because that's how incompetent the Twins are. Just like they screwed up like that with Hrbek, Mauer, Puckett, Wynegar,.....oh, this list goes on and on and on, thrylos. You don't have evidence to support the ridiculous claim you make over and over and over, thrylos. It's just another of your tired, untrue characterizations.
Change-up was his best pitch followed by a decent curve (average) Plus command and a fringy at best fastball. Low ceiling but a very good chance of hitting it.
Unless he suddenly gained 5-6 mph on his fastball Wimmers never had a chance to be a 2 or even a 3. He was a backend guy who would get to the majors quickly. Nothing wrong with guys like that, but not what I wanted.
Wimmer's scouting report was great control with a good curve and change up and a fastball that touched 92. Everyone agreed that he would probably be on the fast track to the majors but his low velocity would not enable him to be an ace. I don't remember anybody being excited with the Wimmers pick.
Everyone knew it was coming, but most people were pleading to take someone with some velocity and upside, particularly because a year after drafting Gibson, BA and the other rankings gave us Twins fans a kick to the gut by saying Gibson was good but didn't have the strikeout potential to be an true ace.
I was high on Trout coming into the draft. The northeast had experienced a crazy-wet spring in 2009, so Trout hadn't been seen as much as he would have been in a normal year. I remember the Twins were high on Jio Mier. I liked Gibson, but figured he'd be out of the Twins reach. Jared Mitchell (a former Twins pick) was also projected to go around that time. As the draft progressed, I figured it would be one of those four - hoping for Gibson, hoping against Mier and would have been happy with either outfielder. When it was Gibson, I was ecstatic... the Twins added a top-flight arm to their system. I'd be lying if I said I'd go back and do it differently.
Wimmers in 2010 was not a well-kept secret. At the time, we believed he'd join the staff with Gibson... he was just like the good Kevin Slowey. Again, hard to be mad at that move.
Wimmers sat around 90, touching 92 on occasion.Quote:
Originally Posted by birdwatcher
The main selling point on him (especially during the BYTO discussions) was that he could be "like Mike Leake" and move quickly. Leake is pretty much the definition of a league average pitcher. While someone like that has value, much of the "low upside, but fast to the bigs" selling point is lost when, three years later, the guy has barely seen AA and is now shut down again with a mystery injury.
Well, DPJ, perhaps you disagreed with the scouts back then. Perhaps you'll be right. Wimmer's ceiling was generally described as 2-3 starter, and his FB was 91-93, and more that one scout described it as plenty good enough to miss bats. I cannot recall a single scouting report describing his ceiling as "back of the rotation". If it was, he would've been regarded as a second rounder, like Baker was. So, either that's your opinion, or you should back it up if it's a credible professinal opinion.
Which is it?
In fairness to Wimmers, some people did like him. Sickels at minorleagueball gave him a B+ rating in his first ranking, making him #2 Twins prospect and baseball america put him in their honorable mention his first eligible year.
http://www.minorleagueball.com/2010/...pects-for-2011
So I'm suppose to show a scouting report that shows Wimmers had a backend ceiling while you provide no link that says otherwise. It pretty much birdwatcher says he's a 2 or 3 even though multiply here have said the same thing of Wimmers.Quote:
Originally Posted by birdwatcher
Is this Lev?
Yeah, they def could use some better (young arms) however its kinda hard to blame them for Morneau's dizzyness and the other injuries the Twins have dealt with (Mauer, Gibson, Wimmers etc) its also extremely frustrating that guys like Guerra and Salcedo never panned out.Quote:
Originally Posted by FrodaddyG
Smith was the one who put them in the current situation IMO by the Capps trade and a few other things.
Please explain how Smith is to blame for this?Quote:
Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave
No, Ryan was the GM when the drafts were done 4+ years ago, which is the track for college players, right? this is on both Ryan and Smith's time as GM, it's waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too easy to blame this on Smith.
I won't copy the whole thing, but here are two sentences from the ESPN analysis of the Wimmers' pick.....
“There's some question whether he'll hold up as a starter, but I think average fastball/two plus pitches/control is a starter, until his performance proves otherwise. Wimmers is the closest thing to a Mike Leake this draft class has, although he's not the athlete that Leake is and hasn't pitched in a major baseball conference as Leake did.”
Law did say he thought he was the closest to the majors of any pitcher in that draft (well, him or Chris Sale).
Look, I get the pick, I just don’t see him as anywhere likely a #2. Name the number two pitchers (like, the 30-50th best pitchers in the league, maybe 20-35). Do we think it is LIKELY that Wimmers is (was) that? 20% likely? I just don’t think most pitchers reach that, especially not pitchers with an average or below average FB. His likely upside is a 3, with a more likely outcome a 4/5 if he's a starter someday. That’s mostly because that is the likely outcome for most pitching prospects that end up starters, not because he is a bad pitcher. Heck, most become relievers if they even make the majors.
I did not kill the pick at the time, but I also didn’t expect him to be a 2. I expected him to be up this year, as a 4/5, with him becoming a 3/4 over a year or two.
Again, DPJ, name us two pitchers in the Wimmers draft that hit 97 MPH with their fastball.
Just two.
Now, were they available to the Twins in the Wimmers draft? No? OK, then name me three pitchers who WERE available when the Twins drafted whose fastball sat at 95 MPH.
It's just not that easy.
What the hell are you talking about?Quote:
Originally Posted by birdwatcher
This isn't about 97 mph, it's about taking a low-ceiling pitcher that early in the draft. He was never a #2 or 3, he was a backend guy that would move quickly through the minors. That was it, the injuries and yips sucks but never the less it's part of grading a pick and so far the Wimmers pick has been a massive failure.
FYI I was a big Tyrell Jenkins fan coming into the draft but what good does it do to rehash.