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Worley to the Pirates

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#21 mike wants wins

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Posted 25 March 2014 - 03:53 PM

This team makes it hard not to mock them over their financial moves......but I'm sure the scouts that said they should trade a 24 year old cost controlled 2+ WAR CF for him and a minor league pitcher there is not consensus on (in terms of upside) will get the next one right.....

edited, since I somehow lost part of the post the first time

Edited by mike wants wins, 25 March 2014 - 03:57 PM.

What I just typed is probably an opinion, not a fact. I mean, I'm usually right, so you should maybe assume it is or will be a fact soon, but that's up to you. :) Also, I am NOT trying to convince anyone I am correct, I'm just talking here, not arguing.


#22 DuluthFan

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Posted 25 March 2014 - 03:55 PM

Reason for the trade vs waiver claim.

Worley had no options remaining. If the Pirates claimed him, he would have had to remain on the 25 man roster. By letting him clear waivers and be removed from the 40 man roster, he can now be stashed in the minors or re-traded later without having to pass through waivers again.

Worley's lack of options has now placed him in a sort of limbo. If he is ever re-added to the 40 man roster, he will also need to be on the 25 man roster since he has no options left to send him down to the minors. If he once again is added and removed from the 40 man roster, he would also have the option to become a minor league free agent if he once again clears waivers. He is only a few steps away from becoming a 'journeyman' player, signing minor league deals with spring training invites to try to make a club.

#23 LaBombo

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Posted 25 March 2014 - 04:07 PM

He is only a few steps away from becoming a 'journeyman' player, signing minor league deals with spring training invites to try to make a club.

Bill James once said that at any given time, about a tenth of the pitchers in baseball had been "left for dead" at some point in their careers, if I remember right.

Worley is only 26 and has had major league success, so he'll get more than one chance, and probably as a starter at some point since he's probably headed back to AAA.

What's surprising to me isn't that the Twins gave up on him, it's that they did it without any effort to experiment with using him in middle relief

Edited by LaBombo, 25 March 2014 - 05:41 PM.


#24 Badsmerf

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Posted 25 March 2014 - 04:16 PM

Why is anyone surprised by this? If he can find a way to salvage a career with the lack of talent he has then good for him. By never taking responsibility for terrible outings and blaming horrible spring training starts on wind I doubt that will happen. Good move clearing space on the 40-man.
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#25 ScottyB

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Posted 25 March 2014 - 04:20 PM

The quote from MLB TradeRumors is: The Pirates have acquired Vance Worley from the Twins in exchange for cash considerations, the club announced.

Are we sure that the that the Twins got money and didn't PAY the Pirates to take Worley off our hands? It's unclear from this statement. (I'm just kidding - okay?)

Edited by ScottyB, 25 March 2014 - 04:29 PM.


#26 jokin

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Posted 25 March 2014 - 04:22 PM

Bill James once said that at any given time, about a tenth of the pitchers in baseball were "left for dead", if I remember right.

Worley is only 26 and has had major league success, so he'll get more than one chance, and probably as a starter at some point since he's probably headed back to AAA.

What's surprising to me isn't that the Twins gave up on him, it's that they did it without any effort to experiment with using him in middle relief


Well stated. And yet another trade made at rock bottom value. There must be a corollary to James' "left for dead" theory for teams that don't manage this aspect of pitching depth very well. The Twins are having a pretty amazing knack for producing more than their 1/10 share, only to find many being re-animated at various levels of success around the league.

I am sensing a slight shift in philosophy, giving up so soon on last year's opening day starter, after a much ballyhooed trade. Worely's a mess right now, to be sure, the appalling "blame it on the wind" excuse was pretty telling about where the Vanimal is at right now- but didn't it behoove the Twins to salvage whatever they could from his current state to derive more value than this, whether it be with the Twins or as a trading chip? I guess they think they can't damage their PR situation any worse by basically admitting another mistake.

At this point, Trevor May really needs to come through this year in Rochester, if, by contrast, Revere stays healthy all year and puts up a 2-3 WAR season.

Edited by jokin, 25 March 2014 - 04:27 PM.


#27 Guest_USAFChief_*

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Posted 25 March 2014 - 04:31 PM

I wasn't a fan of acquiring Worley in the first place.

That said, this makes little sense to me. He was already through waivers and off the 40 man. He's only 26, and has at least some major league success.

Why give away something that has no real cost to keep, a year after paying a pretty decent price to acquire it? Rochester's pitching staff hasn't got room for him?

If he was good enough to trade for, and put atop the rotation just last season, he's too good to toss aside now.

And if he is too bad to keep (for nothing) now, whoever recommended and/or approved the trade last season has some explaining to do.

#28 LaBombo

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Posted 25 March 2014 - 04:36 PM

Why is anyone surprised by this? If he can find a way to salvage a career with the lack of talent he has then good for him. By never taking responsibility for terrible outings and blaming horrible spring training starts on wind I doubt that will happen. Good move clearing space on the 40-man.

He wasn't on the 40. That's what the waiver thing was about.

As for surprise, how about that he was only 26 and was coming off an injury more serious than everyone was willing to cut Hicks slack for in AAA?

Or that even after last year's clunker he still has a higher career WAR average than either Pelfrey or Correia, and a higher career WAR total than the other eight 2013 starters combined?

#29 pierre75275

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Posted 25 March 2014 - 04:39 PM

I wish Worley would have turned out better I feel kinda bad for him. So what does that leave for a AAA rotation? Meyer May, Darnell, Johnson and Gilmartin?

#30 JustinCB

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Posted 25 March 2014 - 04:44 PM

Good move clearing space on the 40-man.


He was already off the Twins' 40 man after clearing waivers. They could have stashed him in the minors without any consequences to the major league roster.

#31 LaBombo

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Posted 25 March 2014 - 04:48 PM

Well stated. And yet another trade made at rock bottom value. There must be a corollary to James' "left for dead" theory for teams that don't manage this aspect of pitching depth very well. The Twins are having a pretty amazing knack for producing more than their 1/10 share, only to find many being re-animated at various levels of success around the league.

James didn't refine it to guesstimate the percentages of those guys whose zombie value ceiling is in middle relief vs. starting or high leverage relief. Would guess they tend more toward the former. But if that's so, would just make it more puzzling why they didn't give VW a shot in that role.

Fwiw, although Worley has apparently insisted he's healthy, Gleeman pointed out that it's pretty odd for a pitcher his age to lose effectiveness so dramatically without an injury eventually turning up.

#32 birdwatcher

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Posted 25 March 2014 - 04:50 PM

How often has any organization ever thrown in the towel on a 26 year old starter just one season removed from two good MLB seasons?

He was very bad last year, but this certainly looks as though the Twins saw something negative in addition to the discouraging numbers.


This is my suspicion as well. Maybe it won't be so windy in Pittsburgh. Maybe his fate won't be "out of his hands" there.

#33 Thrylos

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Posted 25 March 2014 - 04:55 PM

And it's strange that the Pirates didn't simply claim him when he was placed on waivers just six days ago.


Not at all. Had they claimed him, he would have had to be on their 40-man roster. Now he doesn't
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#34 Thrylos

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Posted 25 March 2014 - 04:57 PM

Kinda hard to make my mind about who I would rather have at Rochester's rotation:

Virgil Vasquez or Vance Worley?

What do you all think?
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#35 birdwatcher

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Posted 25 March 2014 - 04:58 PM

[quote name='mike wants wins']This team makes it hard not to mock them over their financial moves......but I'm sure the scouts that said they should trade a 24 year old cost controlled 2+ WAR CF for him and a minor league pitcher there is not consensus on (in terms of upside) will get the next one right.....

The May for Revere trade may end up being a bad one, as trades often are, but this was not a "financial move". Do you not believe it was a personnel decision?

#36 Guest_USAFChief_*

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Posted 25 March 2014 - 05:05 PM

...this was not a "financial move". Do you not believe it was a personnel decision?

That's just it...what WAS this? It's hard to conjure up any reasonable financial or personnel rationale.

Did they just not like the guy?

#37 LaBombo

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Posted 25 March 2014 - 05:09 PM

Did they just not like the guy?

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#38 Thrylos

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Posted 25 March 2014 - 05:10 PM

That's just it...what WAS this? It's hard to conjure up any reasonable financial or personnel rationale.

Did they just not like the guy?


This makes about as much sense as the Liriano trade.
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#39 Kwak

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Posted 25 March 2014 - 05:25 PM

I am amazed that there is any hand-wringing over the departure of Worley. How poorly does a man have to perform before "you cut bait"? How many time have we heard the refrain "best minor league system"? Then add the names of Raley, Gilmartin, et al before you conclude that there are several guys deemed "more worthy" where opportunity needs to be provided. Note: I didn't deem them more worthy--the Twins did. Vines have to be trimmed and weeds pulled.

No, I don't think that "some 'splainin' is required". My analogy is an Arcia whiff. If Arcia hits enough homeruns, the whiffs can be tolerated.

Edited by Kwak, 25 March 2014 - 06:25 PM.
misprint


#40 notoriousgod71

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Posted 25 March 2014 - 05:26 PM

This overtakes Erickson for Klingenbeck as JR's new favorite trade ever.