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#1 spideyo

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 07:01 AM

I know not everyone is thrilled with some of the moves made so far, but I seem to recall that the last few years, a lot of people bitched because the Twins weren't willing to do much in FA, didn't make many in-season moves, and trotted the same guys out even if they were struggling. Let's recap what's happened just since the season started 20 days ago: Brought Hendricks and Swarzak into the rotation (instead of making Duensing a spot starter AGAIN) Let it be known that Liriano is skipping a start so he can get his head screwed on right Given Plouffe another chance to make it as an infielder (while simultaneously reminding Casilla he could lose his starting job AGAIN) Claimed Clete Thomas DFA'ed Luke Hughes (while I'm not thrilled with this move, it did show they are willing to send away a guy who isn't having the immediate impact they want) Sent Revere to AAA so he could play every day Gave Parmelee starts at 1b, RF, and LF Kept Mauer in EVERY game Let The Hammer break up the M&M boys. Wether you agree with all the moves and lineup choices they made or not, you've got to admit that they do seem more willing to do things this year that they really haven't in past years. We might have a very different 25-man roster by August 1, but unlike last year, I think it will be far more deliberate and intentional, rather than just plugging the injury-caused holes with unfinished prospects and AAAA players.

#2 spideyo

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 07:02 AM

oh, and despite everyone's expectations, Butera is STILL at AAA

#3 Gernzy

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 07:17 AM

They are making good moves. I like Duensing in the bullpen because he has been doing a good job. It's not their fault that our starting pitching is horrible right now. For the most part offense and defense have been fine. Besides having Parmelee in LF on Monday. I was at that game and my seats are in section 225 so I had a good view of him. He seemed alittle lost out there, but at least he plans better in RF.
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#4 Mr. Ed

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 07:23 AM

They need to be willing to make moves. 5-13 is nothing to hang your hat on. All possibilities need to be explored, given the "depth" of starting pitching in the system.

#5 Mr. Ed

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 07:25 AM

Clete Thomas' signing is only a good move, if he's played less. 13 strikeouts in 22 at bats?

#6 Boom Boom

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 07:49 AM

They are making good moves. I like Duensing in the bullpen because he has been doing a good job. It's not their fault that our starting pitching is horrible right now. For the most part offense and defense have been fine. Besides having Parmelee in LF on Monday. I was at that game and my seats are in section 225 so I had a good view of him. He seemed alittle lost out there, but at least he plans better in RF.


Ryan assembled that pitching staff.

#7 TwinsFanLV

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 08:00 AM

The Twins are 5-13. Worrying about whether Parmalee belongs in Left Field is like trying to put out a forest fire with a squirt gun. This team needs to change it's culture. Assuming the Pohlads won't sell the team, the first step needed is to fire Terry Ryan and start from scratch. Any player can be traded, including Mauer, if another team is willing to take on his contract.

#8 powrwrap

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 08:30 AM

I agree with you that they are reacting quicker and making more moves, but my impression is that they are nibbling at the edges. Plouffe playing for Casilla is a nice move but I don't believe that Casilla feels that his starting job is in jeopardy, he's had what, four tries at it so far? They need to do something that will really send a message. I would suggest that they: 1. Send Liriano down to AA or even A ball if he stinks again. Bring Diamond up, he's 4-0 with a 1.07 ERA and a 1.03 WHIP. Could he do worse than Liriano? 2. Send Valencia down to Rochester if he continues to be un-coachable. Play Burroughs. Bring Luke Hughes up and work him out at 3B. 3. If Capps fails again (only a matter of time) promote Perkins to closer. Make some significant noise, send some real messages. If I were a player and I saw how much failure someone else can endure with hardly any consequences, why should I be worried about my status? Coupled with last year's practice of players telling the coaching staff they would rather not play there is little reason for players to feel their job is threatened.

Edited by powrwrap, 25 April 2012 - 08:46 AM.

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#9 Mr. Ed

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 08:38 AM

I agree with you that they are reacting quicker and making more moves, but my impression is that they are nibbling at the edges. Plouffe playing for Casilla is a nice move but I don't believe that Casilla feels that his starting job is in jeopardy, he's had what, four tries at it so far? They need to do something that will really send a message. I would suggest that they:

1. Send Liriano down to AA or even A ball if he stinks again. Bring Diamond up, he's 4-0 with a 1.07 ERA and a 1.03 WHIP. Could he do worse than Liriano?
2. Send Valencia down to Rochester if he continues to be un-coachable. Play Burroughs. Bring Luke Hughes up and work him out at 3B.
3. If Capps fails again (only a matter of time) promote Perkins to closer.

Make some significant noise, send some real messages. If I were a player and I saw how much failure someone else can endure with hardly any consequences, why should I be worried about my status? Coupled with last year's practice of player's telling the coaching staff they would rather not play there is little reason for players to feel their job is threatened.



Luke Hughes is in Oakland, with 3 errors at 3rd in his first 2 games,making him more un-coachable for the Twins than Valencia allegedly is. ;)

And no, Diamond could not do any worse than Liriano or Blackburn. Or basically any other starter they've thrown out there.

#10 DAM DC Twins Fans

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 08:53 AM

I agree with you that they are reacting quicker and making more moves, but my impression is that they are nibbling at the edges. Plouffe playing for Casilla is a nice move but I don't believe that Casilla feels that his starting job is in jeopardy, he's had what, four tries at it so far? They need to do something that will really send a message. I would suggest that they:

1. Send Liriano down to AA or even A ball if he stinks again. Bring Diamond up, he's 4-0 with a 1.07 ERA and a 1.03 WHIP. Could he do worse than Liriano?
2. Send Valencia down to Rochester if he continues to be un-coachable. Play Burroughs. Bring Luke Hughes up and work him out at 3B.
3. If Capps fails again (only a matter of time) promote Perkins to closer.

Make some significant noise, send some real messages. If I were a player and I saw how much failure someone else can endure with hardly any consequences, why should I be worried about my status? Coupled with last year's practice of players telling the coaching staff they would rather not play there is little reason for players to feel their job is threatened.


Good concept--bad ideas.

Luke Hughes is not a MLB quality player anywhere and he is gone. Liriano seems to have a good inning to start--that tells me he should be sent to the pen--not to Rochester or New Britain. Yes, bring Diamond up why not, get rid of Blackburn...

But the big move--bring up Dozier--put him at SS--put Carroll at 2B.

#11 ltwedt

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 09:12 AM

... It's not their fault that our starting pitching is horrible right now.


Then whose is it????????????? They fiddled wile the FA market burned, and now it's time to pay the piper - trouble is, there is NO ONE available, and NO help in the minors - they were all here last year, and the result??? - 99-63!!!

#12 powrwrap

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 09:14 AM

My bad, I was not aware that Luke Hughes had been cut. Liriano could go to the pen but then he has no trade value come July. He needs to get his act together as a starter.

But the big move--bring up Dozier--put him at SS--put Carroll at 2B.


Who plays 3B? Please don't say Valencia...
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#13 Thrylos

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 09:16 AM

Bring Diamond up, he's 4-0 with a 1.07 ERA and a 1.03 WHIP. Could he do worse than Liriano?
.


Yes. His peripherals, other than BB/9, HR/9 and BABIP, which are less than last season, are the same as last season. When they regress to the mean he will be the same pitcher he was last season. And that is worse than Liriano. Heck, Blackburn last night was worse than Liriano
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#14 Gernzy

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 09:26 AM

What I was saying is it's not the front office's fault the pitching is doing bad. Do I blame your boss when you do a horrible job at work? No. What moves could they have made? Oswalt had no interest in coming here. We weren't getting to spend money on Edwin Jackson (plus I really don't think he's that great.) List me some players would could have taken and not spent close to 10 million on. This team will never spend a ton of money on a free agent pitcher.
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#15 Boom Boom

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 09:36 AM

What I was saying is it's not the front office's fault the pitching is doing bad. Do I blame your boss when you do a horrible job at work? No.

What moves could they have made? Oswalt had no interest in coming here. We weren't getting to spend money on Edwin Jackson (plus I really don't think he's that great.) List me some players would could have taken and not spent close to 10 million on. This team will never spend a ton of money on a free agent pitcher.


And that's where I'm disagreeing with you. It IS partially the front office's fault that the pitching is bad. Even with Baker healthy this was a dangerously thin rotation, and the bullpen has been rebuilt for the second year in a row on the cheap. You might not blame my boss if I do a horrible job, but you could blame my boss for hiring me to do something I'm not good at or unqualified for, and then continuing to put me in that position.

It's not just about what they didn't do in the last offseason. Since Santana was traded this team has not done enough to strengthen their pitching staff.

#16 Mr. Ed

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 09:48 AM

And that's where I'm disagreeing with you. It IS partially the front office's fault that the pitching is bad. Even with Baker healthy this was a dangerously thin rotation, and the bullpen has been rebuilt for the second year in a row on the cheap. You might not blame my boss if I do a horrible job, but you could blame my boss for hiring me to do something I'm not good at or unqualified for, and then continuing to put me in that position.

It's not just about what they didn't do in the last offseason. Since Santana was traded this team has not done enough to strengthen their pitching staff.


Exactly. Where have the moves been made to DRAFT power pitchers? Where have the moves been made to make a trade or 2?

Instead they've thrown their focus far too often on trying to fix the bullpen.

And we're still at a point where pitching depth, starters and bullpen, are thin at the top2 levels in the organization.

#17 Thrylos

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 10:09 AM

What moves could they have made? .


Admit that it was a rebuilding season; not signing Marquis/Willingham/Carroll and re-signing Capps; trading Pavano/Span/Baker/Liriano (and anyone with trade value) this off-season for prospects; and rebuilt.
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#18 Shane Wahl

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 10:23 AM

Wow people make it sound so easy to be a GM and a manager! Who knew it was so easy!? Spideyo is generally correct here. Thrylos, rebuild with what this year? They could rebuild with Parmelee, Dozier and MAYBE Benson, but that doesn't seem like enough to rebuild as opposed to finding Carroll-esque stop gaps for 1-2 years while the above three get truly ready, Hicks gets there, Revere proves more, Tosoni, Herrmann, Gibson, Wimmers, Gutierrez get ready, etc. If everyone mentioned would have been at Rochester last year, then rebuilding would have been possible. Otherwise your rebuilding plan would involve throwing a whole bunch of AA guys out there.

#19 Gernzy

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 10:38 AM

This will be a big draft for the Twins since we do need to focus on pitching. Twins have made moves to improve the rotation and bullpen, just not many, and some where horrible. For example the Hoey trade, which I hated from day one. That was a complete waste. The Pavano deal was good. He has been one of our most steady pitchers. What other moves were they going to make with all the potental starters we have? Unless we completely rebuild as Thrylos said. I understand why we didn't pick anyone up, and I feel people are placing blame when they shouldn't be. You can't plan on everyone doing bad. All these starters haven't been that bad in the past. Wait until next season to really start hating the front office. We are going to have a different staff
I bent my wookie...

#20 Thrylos

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 10:40 AM

Thrylos, rebuild with what this year? They could rebuild with Parmelee, Dozier and MAYBE Benson, but that doesn't seem like enough to rebuild as opposed to finding Carroll-esque stop gaps for 1-2 years while the above three get truly ready, Hicks gets there, Revere proves more, Tosoni, Herrmann, Gibson, Wimmers, Gutierrez get ready, etc. If everyone mentioned would have been at Rochester last year, then rebuilding would have been possible. Otherwise your rebuilding plan would involve throwing a whole bunch of AA guys out there.


Part of the rebuilding blocks would have come by trades. As I said:

trading Pavano/Span/Baker/Liriano (and anyone with trade value) this off-season.


They have to re-build their SP next season. This is a fact. They could have started this season (and save some $ to throw at some free agent SPs next off-season too).

Here is a thought:
Take a lineup of Revere CF, Benson RF, Tosoni/Mastroianni/Dinkelman LF, Parmelee 1B, Casilla 2B, Dozier SS, Valencia 3B, Mauer C, Morneau DH
a pitching rotation of Hendriks/Swarzak/Blackburn and a couple people in the afforementioned (Pavano/Span/Baker/Liriano etc) trades and
a pen of Perkins as the closer, Tyler Robertson, Burnett, Duensing, Deolis Guerra, Lester Oliveros and maybe a couple people who would have come in trades or other AAA guys.

would that team be much worse than 5-12 at this point? how much more? 3-14? Would that matter that much? OR Would the extra experience for these guys, the extra $ saved towards a good SP next season, the prospects and the extra draft pick (from Capps) matter more? I do think so.
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#21 Shane Wahl

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 10:57 AM

Part of the rebuilding blocks would have come by trades. As I said:



They have to re-build their SP next season. This is a fact. They could have started this season (and save some $ to throw at some free agent SPs next off-season too).

Here is a thought:
Take a lineup of Revere CF, Benson RF, Tosoni/Mastroianni/Dinkelman LF, Parmelee 1B, Casilla 2B, Dozier SS, Valencia 3B, Mauer C, Morneau DH
a pitching rotation of Hendriks/Swarzak/Blackburn and a couple people in the afforementioned (Pavano/Span/Baker/Liriano etc) trades and
a pen of Perkins as the closer, Tyler Robertson, Burnett, Duensing, Deolis Guerra, Lester Oliveros and maybe a couple people who would have come in trades or other AAA guys.

would that team be much worse than 5-12 at this point? how much more? 3-14? Would that matter that much? OR Would the extra experience for these guys, the extra $ saved towards a good SP next season, the prospects and the extra draft pick (from Capps) matter more? I do think so.



Trade talk is pretty dubious though. There's a lot that goes into it, and a lot of it is stuff we never hear about. Furthermore, there have to be willing trade partners. I don't know if many teams would have traded much for any of those guys due to 2012 salary or 2013-2014 salary (in Span's case . . . and his health) when they could just sign guys on the market for the same price. I doubt any of the three pitchers will be around in 2013 unless Liriano is in the bullpen, but I don't know if any of them are trade candidates, unfortunately.

I cannot really see any problem with signing Willingham and Carroll. Not taking care of the pitching situation was and clearly is the problem.

#22 cr9617

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 10:57 AM

You picked the Twins to win the Central...and make it to the World Series. Just sayin...

#23 cr9617

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 10:59 AM

Part of the rebuilding blocks would have come by trades. As I said:



They have to re-build their SP next season. This is a fact. They could have started this season (and save some $ to throw at some free agent SPs next off-season too).

Here is a thought:
Take a lineup of Revere CF, Benson RF, Tosoni/Mastroianni/Dinkelman LF, Parmelee 1B, Casilla 2B, Dozier SS, Valencia 3B, Mauer C, Morneau DH
a pitching rotation of Hendriks/Swarzak/Blackburn and a couple people in the afforementioned (Pavano/Span/Baker/Liriano etc) trades and
a pen of Perkins as the closer, Tyler Robertson, Burnett, Duensing, Deolis Guerra, Lester Oliveros and maybe a couple people who would have come in trades or other AAA guys.

would that team be much worse than 5-12 at this point? how much more? 3-14? Would that matter that much? OR Would the extra experience for these guys, the extra $ saved towards a good SP next season, the prospects and the extra draft pick (from Capps) matter more? I do think so.


You picked the Twins to win the Central...and go to the World Series. Just sayin....

#24 scottz

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 11:48 AM

I think where thrylos is right is that unless they fixed the rotation, this year was going to be a rebuilding year. However, I think management was hoping that the starters would be serviceable with an added innings eater (Marquis), and a healthy Mauer and Morneau along with the stopgaps of Willingham and Caroll would be enough to hide the rebuilding year with a team that perhaps could have played .500 ball. I don't think that's a wholly unacceptable plan - it would help keep fans happy - but that plan has blown up in their faces thus far, as a single major injury (Baker), a couple of missed starts (Marquis, Blackburn), and an immense head-block (Liriano) has exposed the lack of quality arms in the system in the same way that the injuries last year exposed a lack of quality position players. They have been fooled twice, so shame on them as the saying goes. All that said, I don't think that it is impossible that next year would mark a dramatic turnaround for the better, but it absolutely requires an infusion of talent in the starting rotation. Getting one starter off the free agent market is mandatory, and it is looking more and more as though two is necessary. Two seems so out of character with the franchise's mentality that I don't have a strong inkling that would occur. But given the performance and obvious signs of the last two years, they have to consider all things. If they aren't planning on aggressive spending in the FA starting pitching market this coming offseason, then they should have blown it up exactly as thrylos suggested, in my opinion. If they are planning on FA spending, then what they did makes sense to me.

#25 Paul

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 12:41 PM

...They fiddled wile the FA market burned, and now it's time to pay the piper...


Nice. Two idioms in one sentence.

#26 StormJH1

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 02:15 PM

This will be a big draft for the Twins since we do need to focus on pitching. Twins have made moves to improve the rotation and bullpen, just not many, and some where horrible. For example the Hoey trade, which I hated from day one. That was a complete waste. The Pavano deal was good. He has been one of our most steady pitchers. What other moves were they going to make with all the potental starters we have? Unless we completely rebuild as Thrylos said.

I understand why we didn't pick anyone up, and I feel people are placing blame when they shouldn't be. You can't plan on everyone doing bad. All these starters haven't been that bad in the past.

Wait until next season to really start hating the front office. We are going to have a different staff

Lots of teams have little or no chance at significantly competing for a spot in the postseason. "Rebuilding" is a label attached by people outside the team to those teams who giving significant time to younger players that have a chance to a be part of the future.

This team is not "rebuilding" because they really skipped an entire wave of prospects through a combination of bad drafting, bad development, and bad luck. This team really doesn't have the option to bottom out with youngsters because the wave of players in their early or mid-twenties (Hicks, Benson, Parmelee, Gibson, etc.) are either busts, injured, or fringe MLB players. However, if you look at the 18-21 year old prospects in the organization, there are signs of hope (Sano, Arcia, etc.)

The good news is that they stockpiled so many picks in this years draft. And I absolutely agree that it needs to focus a lot on pitching, including a few POWER arms. But given the fact that you can't trade MLB draft picks and much of the picks in the first round are governed as much by signability as by talent/potential, it isn't like other sports where finishing as low as possible in the standings gives you a clear benefit in the draft.

#27 spideyo

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 02:35 PM

Good point Storm. I think we can expect the twins to be competitive (i.e. not the royals and orioles of the past decade) for a few years until the young kids in E-Town and lower are ready. Other than Pavano, the only guys we have that are worth A-list prospects all have had recent injury and/or consistency issues (Baker, Liriano, Mauer, Morneau, Span). We'd basically be selling low on everybody, which is only going to make things worse in the long run

#28 peterb18

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 03:10 PM

"It IS partially the front office's fault that the pitching is bad". No, it is all managments fault that the pitching staff is so bad. Did you watch Blackburn last night? As bad as you can get for a starting pitcher in the major leagues. The ball is so straight, no zip, very little changing speeds, no change-up to mention. This team is not a small market team--two years ago before the passing of Carl the franchise was listed as the richest in all of baseball. The management, or ownership, has to step up to the plate. They needed to sign a few good free agent pitchers. However, in relation the the draft, I think you should sign the Florida catcher first--then go for the pitchers after that. Because of the uncertainty of Joe's health we need to take care of that. Good pitchers will be available from round 2 on--Then sign 1 or two free agent pitchers--this yr. or next!

#29 Teflon

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 03:18 PM

I miss the days when you could catch an opposing GM with a few cocktails in him and pull off a Pierzynski for Nathan, Liriano, & Bonser deal. Now they are all ex-hedge fund managers who run everything through a Bayesian inference first. We need to upgrade.

#30 twinzgrl

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 03:28 PM

Liriano and Blackburn looked really good in spring training. What the heck happened? I think Liriano might be better off in the bullpen as he seems to do fine for an inning or two. I don't know how many innings our starters averaged last year, but it didn't seem like they pitched anymore then than they are now (except Pavano.) A few clutch hits by our offense would also make the starts a bit more confident. It's a mess...