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Heyman: The Twins made a 3-year offer to Ervin Santana

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#21 twinscowboysbulls

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Posted 09 March 2014 - 06:24 PM

If you can get Santana for 3 years and 1 year vesting option, you do it. Then you trade KC for whatever someone will give us. Then you sign Morales and give up your 2nd and 3rd round picks. You just let the slow outfield play as much as you have to.

Nolasco
Santana
Hughes
Pelfrey
Deduno

Worley
Swarzak
Burton
Duensing
Fien
Perkins
Diamond



2B Dozier
1B Mauer
LF Willingham
DH Morales
RF Arcia
3B Plouffe
C Suzuki
CF Presley(hicks i wish)
SS Florimon

C Fryer
UTL Escobar
OF Mastroianni
IF/OF Parmelee

This team could maybe win 75+ games.

#22 twinscowboysbulls

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Posted 09 March 2014 - 06:25 PM

Ideally, I wish they would add Drew on a 2 year deal as well. Push Florimon to UTL role.

#23 kab21

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Posted 09 March 2014 - 06:43 PM

Story here

Sounds like this happened the last couple days, but looks like unless he gets what he wants, he would prefer a one-year deal with either the Orioles or the Jays.

Whole 3 year offer. And I am not sure what message this gives to guys like Kyle Gibson and Alex Meyer and Trevor May et. al...


It should send them a message that this team isn't waiting for the nextnext year or the nextnextnext year to start winning. I would consider Santana to be the Twins best starter with Nolasco close behind. He's the kind of guy you add to the rotation - Pelfrey not so much. And despite everyone's concern that a good pitching prospect is being blocked that is not the case. It's extremely unlikely that the Twins make it through the season w/o an injury or two.

In addition to that it should send a message to Gibson and May that they need to pitch better to get called up and even then they might have to wait their turn. Meyer isn't going to see significant time (>100 innings) with the Twins this year anyway after last season's injury.

The unfortunate odd man out would be Deduno imo. many didn't expect him to be ready this spring but he's back pitching and doing well. At this point it looks like the 5th spot is his while worley and Diamond (still has a chance) compete for a bullpen spot or pack their bags. This is precisely why the Pelfrey move was so questionable at the time. It wasn't about the money but rather that it tied up another rotation spot with a no potential arm. Coincidentally Pelfrey makes about the same amount as Santana's 4th year.

#24 jokin

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Posted 09 March 2014 - 06:45 PM

But I'm happy with the rotation as it stands now!1

1. With the caveat that either Correia or Pelfrey does pitch well to start the season, and that one of Gibson, Worley, or Diamond does actually earn the final spot. (Deduno and Swarzak being apparently headed for the pen regardless of their performance.)


That's a big caveat, and you can't have an either/or with Pelf and Correia, you're stuck with both. If the team is going to be a contender sooner rather than later, it will be Gibson, and to a sightly lesser extent, Worley, getting big innings this year and seeing if they can establish their full potential going forward. But why not make all of these what-ifs? a lot easier to speculate on by having an established Ace on the staff for the next 3-4 years and move on from Correia (who will be gone no later than the end of the year anyways).

#25 howieramone1406390264

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Posted 09 March 2014 - 06:55 PM

I'm no Drew fan, but if you're going to hand out a contract like this and give up a pick....then I'd be willing to sign on for him. I don't think adding more pitching right now helps this team.

It's also a lot of guaranteed roster spots being given for the next few years when there are (hopefully) pitching prospects on the way. You can't always plan on trading these guys either because injuries/poor performances/lack of need can squeeze the market and you're stuck with the money and the guy when you have better alternatives.

I'm kind of glad this wasn't a good fit.


I can't see any downside to signing one of the top free agent starting pitchers. Ryan traded Butera and Doumit, so I can't imagine trading an excess of starting pitching will be all that difficult, and we certainly have all kinds of money available now and for the foreseeable future.

#26 jokin

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Posted 09 March 2014 - 07:02 PM

I can't see any downside to signing one of the top free agent starting pitchers. Ryan traded Butera and Doumit, so I can't imagine trading an excess of starting pitching will be all that difficult, and we certainly have all kinds of money available now and for the foreseeable future.


Agreed, in toto. (What color is the moon tonight?:cry:)

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Edited by jokin, 09 March 2014 - 07:05 PM.


#27 Hosken Bombo Disco

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Posted 09 March 2014 - 07:04 PM

In 2 years you have a rotation that could look like this
1. Meyer
2. Santana
3. Nolasco
4. Berrios
5. Hughes/May


and for the record, I love this rotation too.. especially if Gibson is in there..

#28 TheLeviathan

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Posted 09 March 2014 - 07:09 PM

I can't see any downside to signing one of the top free agent starting pitchers. Ryan traded Butera and Doumit, so I can't imagine trading an excess of starting pitching will be all that difficult, and we certainly have all kinds of money available now and for the foreseeable future.


I don't know why I even try. But I'll try one more time:

Nick Blackburn sat in AA for two seasons making a lot of money. Other guys have this happen throughout their careers as well. There are many factors that make guys untradeable (Santana himself went dirtcheap to the Royals because of production issues).

Had this been the move a month or two ago, without Pelfrey, I think it's easier to get behind. He's a good pitcher and a good target, but at this point the Twins are starting to create roster issues now and going forward out of desperation. There are a finite number of spots on your 40 and your 25 you can devote to pitchers. At some point enough is enough.

#29 jokin

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Posted 09 March 2014 - 07:24 PM

and for the record, I love this rotation too.. especially if Gibson is in there..


In 2016, in my scenario, Meyer will already have replaced Pelfrey in 2015, and Gibson would hopefully already be established in the #4 spot before the end of this season, with Berrios ready to replace Hughes at the deadline in his contract expiration year, with May, Gilmartin and Darnell as starting depth. I see a lot of light at the end of this tunnel.

#30 howieramone1406390264

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Posted 09 March 2014 - 07:28 PM

I don't know why I even try. But I'll try one more time:

Nick Blackburn sat in AA for two seasons making a lot of money. Other guys have this happen throughout their careers as well. There are many factors that make guys untradeable (Santana himself went dirtcheap to the Royals because of production issues).

Had this been the move a month or two ago, without Pelfrey, I think it's easier to get behind. He's a good pitcher and a good target, but at this point the Twins are starting to create roster issues now and going forward out of desperation. There are a finite number of spots on your 40 and your 25 you can devote to pitchers. At some point enough is enough.


Terry Ryan is cool, calm, and calculated. It certainly is not desperation trying to pick up one of the top free agent starting pitchers. I think most of us can find several spots on the 25 and 40 man roster that Santana would fill nicely, and I have never once felt it necessary to caution Terry Ryan about spending money. I guess I don't understand this sudden about face concerning spending in the free agent market. There is no more risk today than there was five months ago.

Edited by howieramone, 09 March 2014 - 08:06 PM.


#31 jokin

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Posted 09 March 2014 - 08:06 PM

He's a good pitcher and a good target, but at this point the Twins are starting to create roster issues now and going forward out of desperation.


It is said that necessity is the mother of invention. But desperation is also a great motivator and has been described as the mother of creativity. Thus the Twins have gone to the ends of the Earth- to Europe and Australia, and combed the Indy Leagues, and kicked tires on the reclamation projects- both major and minor league- looking for cut-rate arms that can servicably cut the mustard on the worst starting pitching staff in baseball over the last 3 years. At least TR's desperation hasn't dug the Twins any holes that they cannot extricate themselves from.

Benjamin Disraeli has another aspect to the value of desperation:

"'Desperation is sometimes as powerful an inspirer as genius."

I think the evidence of the pursuit of Nolasco, Hughes, Garza and now Santana, tells me that Ryan holds little assurances that most of the present in-house SP resources hold much to offer over the next 2-3 years. In which case, if true, I'm all for the "inspiration of desperation" to get this club out the rut in how they have assessed, trained, developed and valued their recent pitching options.

#32 TheLeviathan

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Posted 09 March 2014 - 08:30 PM

At some point adding guaranteed contracts and 40 man spots starts to work against a rebuild too. Had this been Santana over Pelfrey - hell yeah. But what are they going to do? Have Saunders and Santana join and do a 7 man rotation? You reach a threshold at which point "more" no longer helps enough to warrant the commitment. I think, for 2014, we're there for SP.

#33 ashburyjohn

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Posted 09 March 2014 - 09:35 PM

At some point adding guaranteed contracts and 40 man spots starts to work against a rebuild too.


Doesn't the example you raised earlier of Blackburn counteract this concern? If you find you have an excess resource, you pick the one performing most poorly, try to trade him, then waive/DFA him and hope someone picks up the contract, and at worst you have waivers and you just demote him to AAA and eat the contract and keep him stashed for an emergency.

If the Twins were strapped for cash, it would be different. But how did Nick Blackburn's contract impede anything the past two years, or how would (pick a name, let's say Hughes)'s untradeable contract for 3 years impede the rebuild now?

#34 TheLeviathan

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Posted 09 March 2014 - 09:39 PM

Doesn't the example you raised earlier of Blackburn counteract this concern? If you find you have an excess resource, you pick the one performing most poorly, try to trade him, then waive/DFA him and hope someone picks up the contract, and at worst you have waivers and you just demote him to AAA and eat the contract and keep him stashed for an emergency.

If the Twins were strapped for cash, it would be different. But how did Nick Blackburn's contract impede anything the past two years, or how would (pick a name, let's say Hughes)'s untradeable contract for 3 years impede the rebuild now?


Wasn't Blackburn still a misuse of resources? I'm not saying Santana necessarily pushes it over, but at some point you aren't allocating resources effectively any more. Having 4 guys under contract for several years into the future does create this potential risk and it does create a backlog of available positions.

Afterall, it wasn't like we said "Blackburn's bad, let's stop starting him" - we gave him almost 20 starts at a near 7 ERA!!!

#35 kab21

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Posted 09 March 2014 - 09:40 PM

Why are the names of Santana, Saunders, Pelfrey and Blackburn used in the same sentences? Right now adding depth doesn't do anything for the Twins rotation. Adding a pitcher that is better than every other starter (only Nolasco is close) would be a good get for this club.

#36 TheLeviathan

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Posted 09 March 2014 - 09:44 PM

Why are the names of Santana, Saunders, Pelfrey and Blackburn used in the same sentences? Right now adding depth doesn't do anything for the Twins rotation. Adding a pitcher that is better than every other starter (only Nolasco is close) would be a good get for this club.


I mentioned Saunders because reports are that the Twins are asking about him too. So it's not like they are just targeting a good SP here, they're still targeting SP in general.

Blackburn is involved because there seems to be a flippant belief that you can just trade anyone you want as soon as they aren't a fit anymore. That's not always the case.

#37 kab21

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Posted 09 March 2014 - 09:48 PM

And I would be against any moves for mediocre starters with Corriea/Pelfrey upside. Santana would step in as the Twins best starter and I'm in favor of that for the relative bargain that is possible.

#38 TheLeviathan

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Posted 09 March 2014 - 09:50 PM

And I would be against any moves for mediocre starters with Corriea/Pelfrey upside. Santana would step in as the Twins best starter and I'm in favor of that for the relative bargain that is possible.


I'd have been much more ok with it if we didn't have the marginal/mediocre guys already signed. As I said, if you want to hand away a draft pick and some money - why not help the offense instead at this point? Seems like the wrong allocation of resources to me.

#39 ashburyjohn

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Posted 09 March 2014 - 10:00 PM

Afterall, it wasn't like we said "Blackburn's bad, let's stop starting him" - we gave him almost 20 starts at a near 7 ERA!!!


... on a team destined to win only 66, after having won 63 the year before. The dynamics then don't give much guidance on how the roster would be managed when it matters.

The very worst case is that a (25-man, 40-man) roster problem, if any, is solvable with money. The Twins have this luxury for the coming several seasons.

#40 Kwak

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Posted 09 March 2014 - 10:01 PM

Sort of a non sequitur, but does anyone else find it unusual that the Twins are publicizing offers of contracts to free-agents that didn't sign with the Twins?