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Article: Twins Don't Need More Starters

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#1 Nick Nelson

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 10:09 PM

You can view the page at http://www.twinsdail...d-More-Starters

#2 PseudoSABR

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 10:18 PM

Good take, Nick. The Twins need evaluate the players they currently have and who will play a role going forward. If we were closer to competiveness, I'd be more for taking flyers on these guys.

#3 Kwak

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 10:25 PM

Quite likely information planted by player agents.

#4 Don't Feed the Greed Guy

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 10:31 PM

The Twins have the salary space to out incentivize almost everyone in the league. Signing Santana to a minor league contract would have been low risk, high reward, whatever way you slice it.

Remove the theory that the Twins may have too much starting pitching at the major league level. Santana was going to have to prove himself in the minors first, well below the MLB logjam. Oops. The Twins may not need more starters, but Rochester is not Minnesota. In short, the Twins organization missed an opportunity, plain and simple.

How much fun would it have been to watch Santana reach and exceed all of the bonuses in an incentive-laden contract with the Minnesota Twins? Nope. Not going to happen. We just took strike three, looking.

#5 highlander

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 10:36 PM

I'm feeling your vibe. I really like the Hughes signing, think he will establish himself as a 15 game winner.....consistently. Pelfrey feels to me like the stud the Mets had. I have always liked the way Deduno is fearless on the bump. If Worley can find consistency the Twins can string together some quality starts. And that is when streaks happen. Yea it's only spring but we are tied for first!!!

#6 Hosken Bombo Disco

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 10:43 PM

I also agree. One more acquisition will be too much.

This will be said a lot in the coming weeks, but barring an unpleasant surprise, Gibson needs to start. The AAA staff and the rest of the organization have done all they can with him. It's got to be up to the major league coaching staff now to get him on track. Last year, it was the right call, to start him in Triple A, but not this year, even if it means skipping some Correia/Pelfrey turns early or sending one of those guys to the bullpen.

#7 Nick Nelson

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 10:46 PM

With all respect DFGG, I think you are vastly overrating Santana's potential this year. He's 35 and his shoulder is fried. I'd rather give the playing time to any number of decent arms 10 years younger.

The Twins paid Rich Harden a salary last year to rehab his shoulder and never pitch in a game (he was coming off the same surgery Santana just had for a second time, BTW). They also paid Mike Pelfrey $4 million to essentially work through his Tommy John rehab on the field.

I can't blame them for passing on Santana. If he does miraculously manage to come back and pitch effectively, they can take a shot at him next year. Money will be no object.

#8 J-Dog Dungan

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 10:49 PM

I totally agree with this article. If the Twins are going to add anyone, they should be adding another bat, not an arm.

#9 TKGuy

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 11:44 PM

I really like what I saw from Gibson in his last outing, ball moving all over. I'd love to keep Gibson in the rotation and maybe put Worley in the pen. I'm also beginning to think that Pressly may get sent to Rochester. Pen of Perk, Burton, Fien, Swarzak, Thielbar, Duensing and Worley. Leaves Deduno and Diamond the odd men out.

#10 TheLeviathan

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Posted 05 March 2014 - 06:34 AM

Yup, we already have Correia hogging a spot that might better be served to play someone that we can [COLOR=#3E3E3E]"figure out what you've got". We don't need a couple left-handed Correia's added to the pile too.[/COLOR]

#11 Major Leauge Ready

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Posted 05 March 2014 - 06:49 AM

We would all love to see Gibson but we can't just dump Deduno or Worley without getting value in return. Maybe they can deal Correia at the end of spring training or shorty after. However, it that does not happen, I hope and believe the F/O will give Gibson a month or two in AAA while they find a reasonable return for either Deduno or Worley.

The situation will resolve itself. There will be a market for Deduno and/or Worley if they perform well. If not, go ahead a turn them loose for whatever you can get and bring up Gibson. Personally, I think Deduno could be our 2nd best starter. The best case scenario in my mind is that they all perform and Correia is traded at the end of spring training. Deduno and Gibson start with Worley going to the pen. Worley can be the spot starter and perhaps be traded at the deadline for value. Darnell takes over for Worley.

Edited by Major Leauge Ready, 05 March 2014 - 06:52 AM.


#12 wabene

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Posted 05 March 2014 - 07:24 AM

I've been lurking around this site for not quite a year and have to say thank you guys for all the work, enthusiasm and knowledge! Not much of a gusher (could be that spring thing) but this site is up to #2 on my rotation. If you are unsure of how good this site is just read a couple of comments after a Len3 article in the Strib....yuck. Well I thought we might see something from Worley he is a guy we should hang onto because of his youth and track record. Don't think Diamond has the talent to hang with this group. I like Correa because he seems mentally strong enough to get the most out of his talent, but if Worley Deduno and Gibby are all looking good I agree he should be traded.

#13 beckmt

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Posted 05 March 2014 - 07:49 AM

Worley has been in the pen before and I believe that is where he will be to start. Pressly will be sent to Rochester because he has options until the Twins sort out the logjam. Do not know if Gibson will win the 5th spot, my guess is Deduno and Gibson will come up after some trades are made. Twins have to be careful not to give away major league talent for long range(chancy) prospects, but TR has been known to get good value in these trades.

#14 Boom Boom

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Posted 05 March 2014 - 08:26 AM

The Twins have numbers. I'm not sure about the quality of those numbers.

If a better option became available, they should absolutely add another starter. Saunders doesn't do anything for me, but Santana would have at least piqued my interest as a fan. If the Twins had signed Santana to a minor league deal instead of the Orioles, I wouldn't have criticized them for adding to an already crowded starter pool.

#15 nicksaviking

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Posted 05 March 2014 - 08:43 AM

Remove the theory that the Twins may have too much starting pitching at the major league level. Santana was going to have to prove himself in the minors first, well below the MLB logjam. Oops. The Twins may not need more starters, but Rochester is not Minnesota. In short, the Twins organization missed an opportunity, plain and simple.


I can't blame them for passing on Santana. If he does miraculously manage to come back and pitch effectively, they can take a shot at him next year. Money will be no object.


Who says the Twins passed on Santana? I find it more likely he passed on them. All his bonuses with the Orioles revolve around him making the team and number of starts he makes at the MLB level. Because of the ten or so options for the Twins five rotation spots, I'd think Santana would think twice about coming here if all offers were similar.

I don't think the Twins had a chance to sign Santana considering he'll have a much eaiser time hitting his incentives, and likely a quicker shot at redemption with the Orioles.

Edited by nicksaviking, 05 March 2014 - 08:46 AM.


#16 mike wants wins

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Posted 05 March 2014 - 08:50 AM

They don't need more old players blocking possible future players at AAA and the MLB level. It is hard to understand how this is even up for debate at this point. Another year of not knowing if these guys are part of the future would be bad. At some point, you need to test these guys.
Lighten up Francis....

#17 jokin

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Posted 05 March 2014 - 08:55 AM

Not much of a gusher but this site is up to #2 on my rotation.


Who is #1?

#18 howieramone1406390264

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Posted 05 March 2014 - 08:59 AM

Yup, we already have Correia hogging a spot that might better be served to play someone that we can [COLOR=#3e3e3e]"figure out what you've got". We don't need a couple left-handed Correia's added to the pile too.[/COLOR]


Which pile is that?

#19 spycake

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Posted 05 March 2014 - 09:01 AM

The Twins paid Rich Harden a salary last year to rehab his shoulder and never pitch in a game (he was coming off the same surgery Santana just had for a second time, BTW). They also paid Mike Pelfrey $4 million to essentially work through his Tommy John rehab on the field.


Harden's salary was minimal -- like Santana, the reported value of his contract was contingent on him reaching MLB.

The $3 mil base if he makes MLB seems steep, but maybe he is closer than most of us think?

#20 jokin

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Posted 05 March 2014 - 09:17 AM

They don't need more old players blocking possible future players at AAA and the MLB level. It is hard to understand how this is even up for debate at this point. Another year of not knowing if these guys are part of the future would be bad. At some point, you need to test these guys.


The main problem in how the Twins are handling all of this is that many of their "possible future players at AAA and the MLB level" are now also getting old (with their birthday age in 2014), to wit:

Deduno 31
Vasquez 32
Johnson 30
Pino 30
Diamond 28
Turpen 28
Watts 27
Thompson 27
Worley 27
The "Youngish" Kyle Gibson 27


And yet, there is still fretting about the burning of service time. It's as if they're afraid of being stuck with multiple Nick Blackburns.

Edited by jokin, 05 March 2014 - 09:31 AM.


#21 jokin

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Posted 05 March 2014 - 09:19 AM

Which pile is that?


See post #20 immediately above, just for Starters (pun intended).

Edited by jokin, 05 March 2014 - 09:32 AM.


#22 tobi0040

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Posted 05 March 2014 - 09:22 AM

The Twins have numbers. I'm not sure about the quality of those numbers.

If a better option became available, they should absolutely add another starter. Saunders doesn't do anything for me, but Santana would have at least piqued my interest as a fan. If the Twins had signed Santana to a minor league deal instead of the Orioles, I wouldn't have criticized them for adding to an already crowded starter pool.


I think signing a guy like Saunders would mean Corriea does not break camp with the Twins. I think he is a perfect sell high guy and Saunders is a sell low guy. Their production next year is probably similar, Saunders will sign for less and we might be able to get a decent prospect. Probably not a top 100 prospect but maybe a young upside guy.

I just read that Saunders signed a minor league deal with the Rangers. His career ERA is 4.30, lower than Corriea. I would have been OK with signing him and trading Kevin but no dice.

#23 nicksaviking

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Posted 05 March 2014 - 09:30 AM

[

I just read that Saunders signed a minor league deal with the Rangers. His career ERA is 4.30, lower than Corriea. I would have been OK with signing him and trading Kevin but no dice.


I think most of us would be fine with trading Correia, but to do it now, you'll likely have to wait for an injury to a starter on a another team with an undesirable contingency plan. An injury like that is likely to happen, but we can't count on it.

#24 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 05 March 2014 - 09:39 AM

I've been lurking around this site for not quite a year and have to say thank you guys for all the work, enthusiasm and knowledge! Not much of a gusher (could be that spring thing) but this site is up to #2 on my rotation. If you are unsure of how good this site is just read a couple of comments after a Len3 article in the Strib....yuck. Well I thought we might see something from Worley he is a guy we should hang onto because of his youth and track record. Don't think Diamond has the talent to hang with this group. I like Correa because he seems mentally strong enough to get the most out of his talent, but if Worley Deduno and Gibby are all looking good I agree he should be traded.


Thanks for the kind words and welcome to the site! Our mods work diligently to keep the intelligent baseball coming and weed out some of the posters who run rampant on other sites.

#25 Don't Feed the Greed Guy

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Posted 05 March 2014 - 10:07 AM

Who says the Twins passed on Santana? I find it more likely he passed on them.


Good point.

To be clear, my premise was that signing Santana would not create a logjam on the Twins starting rotation. Nick seems to be arguing that there was no room for a 35 year old tired pitcher because the Twins don't need any more starters. Santana would have had to pitch his way through the minor leagues and onto the major league roster, earning a place among the top five starters in the Twins organization. I would have liked to see him get that shot with us, not Baltimore.

Maybe Santana didn't think he could overcome that competition, and saw a better path back to the majors in Baltimore. I don't know. Again, you offer a good point here.

I just think that a two-time Cy Young winner might be worth that risk/reward. It's pure speculation. I liked the Rich Harden signing last year, for many of the same reasons. Oh well, I wish him well, and would love to see him pitch the O's past the Yankees and the Bosox down the stretch run in the AL East.

#26 DAM DC Twins Fans

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Posted 05 March 2014 - 10:09 AM

I see a few posters talking up Gibson and trading somebody to make room for him. Not sure that is a good idea. Gibson needs to go to Rochester and earn spot in Target Field first. He is old (27) for a rookie and not an ace. If he is doing well end of May, then bring him up--somebody will have worked himself out of the rotation by then.

Meanwhile, a rotation of Hughes, Nolasco, Correia, Pelfrey, and Worley/Diamond/Deduno / looks adequate for now.

#27 cmathewson

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Posted 05 March 2014 - 10:16 AM

With all respect DFGG, I think you are vastly overrating Santana's potential this year. He's 35 and his shoulder is fried. I'd rather give the playing time to any number of decent arms 10 years younger.

The Twins paid Rich Harden a salary last year to rehab his shoulder and never pitch in a game (he was coming off the same surgery Santana just had for a second time, BTW). They also paid Mike Pelfrey $4 million to essentially work through his Tommy John rehab on the field.

I can't blame them for passing on Santana. If he does miraculously manage to come back and pitch effectively, they can take a shot at him next year. Money will be no object.


This. No one has successfully recovered from two surgeries of this type. Harden tried to recover from the first one last year and just never developed the velocity. It's extremely likely Santana would be in the same boat or worse. I hope he does, but I am not all that disappointed that he will get that chance with another organization.
"If you'da been thinkin' you wouldn't 'a thought that.."

#28 howieramone1406390264

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Posted 05 March 2014 - 10:21 AM

They don't need more old players blocking possible future players at AAA and the MLB level. It is hard to understand how this is even up for debate at this point. Another year of not knowing if these guys are part of the future would be bad. At some point, you need to test these guys.


Mike, what's the difference between blocking and good, healthy competition?

#29 Willihammer

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Posted 05 March 2014 - 10:25 AM

For once its actually possible to envision a decent pitching scenario

-everyone gets through ST healthy and the Twins DFA two losers for the 5th rotation spot
-Meyer and/or Gibson and/or May pitch themselves to a June call-up
-make a trade or option some guys (Fien) in order to make room for the newcomer(s)

That's not too unrealistic really.

#30 Kwak

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Posted 05 March 2014 - 10:48 AM

The main problem in how the Twins are handling all of this is that many of their "possible future players at AAA and the MLB level" are now also getting old (with their birthday age in 2014), to wit:

Deduno 31
Vasquez 32
Johnson 30
Pino 30
Diamond 28
Turpen 28
Watts 27
Thompson 27
Worley 27
The "Youngish" Kyle Gibson 27


And yet, there is still fretting about the burning of service time. It's as if they're afraid of being stuck with multiple Nick Blackburns.


These are guys in the age-group for peak performance--and yet for zero of them is it certain that any of them belong at the major league level. My points: we as fans should not expect any of them to be a cornerstone on the Active Roster, and any pitcher (in the peak-performance age group) who can't make the worst staff in MLB isn't worth keeping in hopes of "obtaining value"--he has so very little value! In about 10 days the Twins need to reduce to 15 pitchers in ML camp, so everybody "gets their innings" to be fully prepared for opening day and for those in the "decision group" (keep/demote/release) also have enough innings to make an informed decision.