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Diamondbacks looking for C (Pinto?) for SS (Owens/Didi).

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#1 PseudoSABR

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 02:39 PM

MLBtraderumors suggests that the Diamondbacks are looking for a young catcher for one of their ML ready SS. Would you give up Pinto (plus something more?) to get one of these guys?

I sure would.

#2 SpiritofVodkaDave

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 02:52 PM

Not really, then suddenly Catcher becomes a black hole for the org.
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#3 mike wants wins

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 02:53 PM

Then who is your catcher? though I still might do it, I'm not sure.
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#4 PseudoSABR

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 03:19 PM

I think it will be far easier to find a catcher via FA or develop one in our minors; than it is to get an elite SS. I'm not sure that Pinto has the defensive chops to be the Twins everyday catcher. Might as well capitalize on his perceived value...

#5 Boom Boom

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 03:28 PM

Sign Drew.

But yeah, I'd trade Pinto for either of those guys, depending on what the additional player(s) involved would be.

#6 spycake

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 03:36 PM

Sign Drew.


I think this proposal speaks to why signing FA like Drew is a good play for the Twins right now. We don't really have extra assets anywhere that we can afford to deal. We need good luck with most of our current youngsters PLUS a few more pieces.

#7 mike wants wins

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 03:41 PM

We have lots of AAAA pitchers to deal......maybe even a number 4/5 that could be dealt, since they have other options.

I'm confused that the line for SS is elite, but it is "easy" to find "a" catcher. It's not hard to find "a" SS either. I don't share the general disdain for Pinto's catching that others seem to have. I don't know if either of these is "elite" at SS.

Interestingly, KLAW said today he thinks Franklin's bat might be good enough to make up for his 1-6 runs his defensive definciencies are probably costing.
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#8 B Richard

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 03:43 PM

I think this proposal speaks to why signing FA like Drew is a good play for the Twins right now. We don't really have extra assets anywhere that we can afford to deal. We need good luck with most of our current youngsters PLUS a few more pieces.


What kind of contract would you give Drew (mostly talking years...)? Do you think he will sustain his talent long enough to be a real piece of the Twins once we are a contender? (think 2016-beyond).

I don't think it's worth signing Drew to a 1-2 year contract. Two years on a transition team only bails water out of the boat- it doesn't plug the hole. At the same time, I have a hard time believing his talent will last long enough to be a part of the Twins future. Ergo, I wouldn't really be a big fan of the signing altogether.

Now, depending on how much risk you want to take, you might consider Tulo in next year's free agent crop, assuming he doesn't get extended by the Rockies. That's a move I would seriously consider.
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#9 S.

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 03:44 PM

I think it will be far easier to find a catcher via FA or develop one in our minors; than it is to get an elite SS.

While I don't disagree with the statement itself, neither Gregorius or Owings are even remotely close to what I'd consider elite.


Just for comparison sake, one of these is Gregorius the other is Florimon:

Player A 2013: 403 AB / 44 Runs / 9 HR / 44 RBI / .221 Avg / .281 OBP / .611 OPS / 2.1 WAR
Player B 2013: 357 AB / 47 Runs / 7 HR / 28 RBI / .252 Avg / .332 OBP / .705 OPS / 1.4 WAR

Player A minors (7 seasons): 2556 AB / 341 Runs / 32 HR / 275 RBI / .249 Avg / .321 OBP / .675 OPS
Player B minors (6 seasons): 1766 AB / 236 Runs / 22 HR / 168 RBI / .273 Avg / .324 OBP / .705 OPS

#10 mike wants wins

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 03:46 PM

Neither will Pelfrey, or Floriman, or Suzuki, or most of the RP on the roster. Probably not Plouffe. Probably not most of the guys on the roster. But at some point, signing Drew costs nothing other than money. If you are willing to sign Suzuki or Pelfrey, it is hard to understand not signing Drew.
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#11 Kwak

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 03:50 PM

What kind of contract would you give Drew (mostly talking years...)? Do you think he will sustain his talent long enough to be a real piece of the Twins once we are a contender? (think 2016-beyond).

I don't think it's worth signing Drew to a 1-2 year contract. Two years on a transition team only bails water out of the boat- it doesn't plug the hole. At the same time, I have a hard time believing his talent will last long enough to be a part of the Twins future. Ergo, I wouldn't really be a big fan of the signing altogether.

Now, depending on how much risk you want to take, you might consider Tulo in next year's free agent crop, assuming he doesn't get extended by the Rockies. That's a move I would seriously consider.


Tulowitski is a pipe dream. Guess who will be looking for a SS next year? Hint: they can afford anybody.

#12 pierre75275

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 03:50 PM

MLBtraderumors suggests that the Diamondbacks are looking for a young catcher for one of their ML ready SS. Would you give up Pinto (plus something more?) to get one of these guys?

I sure would.

Sounds like they only are asking for a catcher. Why would we want to give them more then what they want? If we have to send two prospects the best catcher I would send would be Turner or Knudson

#13 SpiritofVodkaDave

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 03:54 PM

While I don't disagree with the statement itself, neither Gregorius or Owings are even remotely close to what I'd consider elite.


Just for comparison sake, one of these is Gregorius the other is Florimon:

Player A 2013: 403 AB / 44 Runs / 9 HR / 44 RBI / .221 Avg / .281 OBP / .611 OPS / 2.1 WAR
Player B 2013: 357 AB / 47 Runs / 7 HR / 28 RBI / .252 Avg / .332 OBP / .705 OPS / 1.4 WAR

Player A minors (7 seasons): 2556 AB / 341 Runs / 32 HR / 275 RBI / .249 Avg / .321 OBP / .675 OPS
Player B minors (6 seasons): 1766 AB / 236 Runs / 22 HR / 168 RBI / .273 Avg / .324 OBP / .705 OPS

Player A is also 3 years younger at was a top 70 prospect prior to last season.

I'd still like to hold onto the little C depth we have, and just sign Drew.
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#14 SpiritofVodkaDave

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 03:55 PM

Tulowitski is a pipe dream. Guess who will be looking for a SS next year? Hint: they can afford anybody.


Yeah, Tulo is going to be a 200 million type guy.
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#15 S.

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 03:55 PM

Player A is also 3 years younger at was a top 70 prospect prior to last season.


Player A is Pedro Florimon, Player B is Didi Gregorius.

#16 SpiritofVodkaDave

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 03:57 PM

Player A is Pedro Florimon, Player B is Didi Gregorius.


Blah, yeah I mixed that up at the last second.
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#17 SpiritofVodkaDave

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 03:58 PM

Owings would be worth the trade though, that bat appears to be legit. Doubftul they would trade him for just Pinto though... I'm guessing they would much rather part with Didi
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#18 mike wants wins

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 03:58 PM

Sounds like they only are asking for a catcher. Why would we want to give them more then what they want? If we have to send two prospects the best catcher I would send would be Turner or Knudson



they are looking for MLB ready catchers. They are (and I know it is confusing to a Twins fan) trying to win now, not 3 years from now.
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#19 Boom Boom

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 04:02 PM

While I don't disagree with the statement itself, neither Gregorius or Owings are even remotely close to what I'd consider elite.


I don't think either of them will be elite, but I don't really think Pinto will be elite either.

Honestly I think the Twins should cowboy up and pay the money for Drew, but if that wasn't a possibility, a 1-for-1 swap of Pinto for either Gregorius or Owings would sound palatable to me.

#20 S.

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 04:09 PM

The way I see it with Gregorius, we'd basically be trading our only MLB ready catcher with a decent bat for a minor upgrade to Florimon, who has the advantage of being a top 100 prospect at one point. Problem is, his numbers in the minors and last year are more or less the same. Little bit better in some categories, little bit worse in others. No huge differences in their stats (at this point in their careers). Without Pinto though, we're going be watching a whole lot of Fryer/Herrmann at bats for a while.

On the other hand, I don't know much at all about Owings, besides looking at some splits, but I thought this was an interesting quote that I grabbed from a Fantasy forum I frequent:

[COLOR=#282828][FONT=helvetica]He plays hard, is quick, and exciting to watch. Everything that I've read on him points to him being able to handle the rigors of SS at the MLB level, but I'm worried about his ability to CONSISTENTLY handle breaking pitches at the MLB level. why? this year, 6 BB and 52 K in 269 AB. While the K rate isn't HIDEOUS, it's not great. however, his BB rate is about the worst I've seen. he did not walk ONCE in the AFL last year in near 100 ABs. last year regular season, 132K, 24BB. the year before? 130K, 15BB.

[/FONT][/COLOR]

#21 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 04:10 PM

While I don't disagree with the statement itself, neither Gregorius or Owings are even remotely close to what I'd consider elite.


Just for comparison sake, one of these is Gregorius the other is Florimon:

Player A 2013: 403 AB / 44 Runs / 9 HR / 44 RBI / .221 Avg / .281 OBP / .611 OPS / 2.1 WAR
Player B 2013: 357 AB / 47 Runs / 7 HR / 28 RBI / .252 Avg / .332 OBP / .705 OPS / 1.4 WAR

Player A minors (7 seasons): 2556 AB / 341 Runs / 32 HR / 275 RBI / .249 Avg / .321 OBP / .675 OPS
Player B minors (6 seasons): 1766 AB / 236 Runs / 22 HR / 168 RBI / .273 Avg / .324 OBP / .705 OPS


So what you're saying is that Gregorius would be an upgrade over Florimon without even factoring in that he's three years younger and has plenty of room to grow. Gregorius' fWAR was 1.3 to Florimon's 1.4 despite playing fewer games.

#22 S.

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 04:11 PM

I don't think either of them will be elite, but I don't really think Pinto will be elite either.

I also don't disagree with this statement. I do disagree with the idea of a 1-1 swap of Pinto for Gregorius, but don't have enough insight on Owings to make much of a judgement call on that one.

#23 S.

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 04:12 PM

So what you're saying is that Gregorius would be a massive upgrade over Florimon without even factoring in that he's three years younger and has plenty of room to grow.

I guess, if thats how you see it. I guess I'm just not that high on Gregorius as real solution to SS as some of you. It makes us a bit better at SS, sure, but a lot worse at catcher in the meantime.

Edit: also, the major league numbers are a pretty small sample. The minor league numbers, I certainly wouldn't say Gregorius is showing he's necessarily a "massive upgrade"

#24 S.

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 04:23 PM

I think maybe my posting of the stats was misinterpreted. I'm not disputing that Gregorius is the better/higher upside player. I'm just saying, trading a potentially decent offensive catcher for another SS with a crappy bat doesn't seem like much of a net positive when you look at their numbers, and then you consider all of Pinto's ABs would now be going to Herrmann, Fryer, and Suzuki.

Part of the question also depends heavily on what you think are realistic expectations for Pinto moving forward. I'm sure if you think last year was a fluke for him, then these trades probably sound great. If you think he can put up similar numbers as last year, probably sounds awful. If you're somewhere in the middle, like me, then probably just depends which way you're leaning.

#25 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 04:24 PM

I guess, if thats how you see it. I guess I'm just not that high on Gregorius as real solution to SS as some of you. It makes us a bit better at SS, sure, but a lot worse at catcher in the meantime.

Edit: also, the major league numbers are a pretty small sample. The minor league numbers, I certainly wouldn't say Gregorius is showing he's necessarily a "massive upgrade"


I'm not sold on Gregorius, either. I don't even know if I'd trade him for Pinto.

But Florimon is a bad starter. A very, very bad starter. The guy makes an out over 70% of the time he comes to the plate.

#26 mike wants wins

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 04:34 PM

Suzuki is worse than Floriman.....and he'd be your starter, followed by Fryer.

new SS and those catchers?
floriman and Pinto?
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#27 S.

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 04:35 PM

But Florimon is a bad starter. A very, very bad starter. The guy makes an out over 70% of the time he comes to the plate.

Yeah, I don't think that part of the discussion is up for debate.

#28 AHSaves

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 04:36 PM

Another way you have to look at it: We've been SPOILED ROTTEN with who our catcher has been the past decade basically. Most of that time we've had a great 1-2 with Morneau mashing HR's. Now our offensive star catcher is moving to 1B without as much firepower. We are in an offensive deficit compared to even last year. If Pinto shows up and holds his own in the majors, we're still not back to even. Keep our Catchers.

#29 Thrylos

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 04:57 PM

I think it will be far easier to find a catcher via FA or develop one in our minors; than it is to get an elite SS. I'm not sure that Pinto has the defensive chops to be the Twins everyday catcher. Might as well capitalize on his perceived value...


If that is true, why would the Diamondbacks make that trade then?

And I think that you are severely underestimating Pinto's Defense...
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#30 Tecmo

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 05:33 PM

Yeah, Tulo is going to be a 200 million type guy.


Tulo isn't a free agent until 2020 at the earliest although it wouldn't surprise me if he is traded in the next couple seasons.