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True Detective

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#31 Willihammer

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Posted 07 May 2014 - 11:48 AM

we had a neat and tidy wrap-up to it without really finding out all the different connections the case had so interestingly brought up through the course of the investigation.


I assume season 2 will get into that stuff, eventually working its way up to the Governor.

Lot of pipe laid in season 1.

#32 TheLeviathan

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Posted 07 May 2014 - 02:22 PM

I assume season 2 will get into that stuff, eventually working its way up to the Governor.

Lot of pipe laid in season 1.


My thought was that the next season would be a completely new case with completely new characters?

#33 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 07 May 2014 - 03:03 PM

My thought was that the next season would be a completely new case with completely new characters?


Yep. As far as I know, all new characters and story.

#34 Willihammer

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Posted 07 May 2014 - 06:40 PM

What seriously? Wow what a tease

#35 TheLeviathan

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Posted 07 May 2014 - 06:42 PM

What seriously? Wow what a tease


Yeah, hence my frustration with the ending.

#36 Willihammer

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Posted 07 May 2014 - 07:27 PM

Yeah I understand now.

Wow. Who does that? Meaningless foreshadowing?

Sad thing is I will probably watch season 2 and be disappointed all over again.

#37 PseudoSABR

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Posted 08 May 2014 - 09:40 AM

Two things:

1) It's incredibly difficult to write a continuously interesting and cutting edge serial (episodic) dramatic narrative with only two freaking characters. In it's best form the show probably should only have been six episodes; I'm sure HBO execs were fighting against a series that had only eight episodes.

2) I thought the ending was fantastic, given that there were so many train-wreck options. A) A less pretty ending without catching the lawnmower guy (who was uniquely and profoundly well rendered in the last episode), would have been totally off-putting in predictable. Say, an ending with Marty and Rust both dying would have been pretty unsatisfying, though more realistic perhaps. B) There's no revealing of the occult that could have been satisfying. I'm glad that they didn't attempt to explain what was really happening.

More than this, all good narrative is about characters, and both Marty and Rust go through real evolutions of character. The scenes in the hospital, especially in the parking lot have such resonance. Marty realizing how much he misses his family and what a horrible **** he's been. And Rust realizing that the experience of human life isn't some perverted evolutionary accident.

I think the show will continue to deal with the occult, and we will learn about the operation of secret society and their belief system; though we'll shift characters and regions. Though we wont see Rust and Marty, we might see the Tuttles again though probably not next season.

Edited by PseudoSABR, 08 May 2014 - 09:53 AM.


#38 TheLeviathan

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Posted 08 May 2014 - 10:29 AM

More than this, all good narrative is about characters, and both Marty and Rust go through real evolutions of character.


Of course, but the plot those characters are a part of matters too. A good example would be the Matrix: great characters and the first movie had an outstanding plot. Movies 2 and 3 had the same fascinating characters but the plot was garbage.

So, in my view, a narrative that fails to be as strong with it's story as it is with it's characters is a flaw. Breaking Bad didn't have this kind of problem in my opinion.

Your belief that we'll continue to see these threads evolve is an assumption that you're using to fill gaps the ending left out. With confirmation there will be no Marty and Rust next year (and with the rumors that the next season will be unrelated), I think that's an unfair way to judge the show. The ending, as constituted and likely concluded, left a lot of the plot that was addressed in the show hanging at the end. Even the final conversation indicated a "we only caught this one guy and ultimately failed at the larger picture" type of conversation between the two detectives. Which is fine, it wrapped up the murder they initially investigated, but it makes large chunks of the season and the motivations the characters had utterly irrelevant if the Tuttle situation just dies with season 1.

To me, this was too cute and happy an ending with so much unresolved. It felt rushed and a bit too Deus ex Machina-y to me.

Edited by TheLeviathan, 08 May 2014 - 10:31 AM.


#39 PseudoSABR

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Posted 08 May 2014 - 10:56 AM

In fiction (and Pizzalotto emerges from that realm), the plot must serve the characters; so the plot does matter, but only in so much as it reveals about the people involved in the narrative. The characters in the first Matrix sucked too, but the plot was so bold that it hardly mattered that the characters were tokenistic ("Neo" for godsakes). The sequels failed because they lacked both a story a tell and credible characters (I couldn't even watch them). As great as Marty and Rust were, having them for a second season may have tuned in viewers, but wouldn't have been good for the show, as they already had their denouement; the narrative covered 20 years of their lives.

I didn't see a realistic way to resolve the Tuttle situation without having even more Law and Order type episodes. In my opinion, had it resolved much more than it did, it would have been far too cute and neat, and lose it's sense of authenticity.

I don't see the Deus ex Machina at all, really/

#40 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 08 May 2014 - 11:04 AM

Agreed, Pseudo. The Matrix isn't a good comp because that was almost entirely plot-driven. The characters were unremarkable.

In my opinion, a better comp to True Detective is a movie I loved from the 2000s, Children of Men. Strong, interesting characters navigating a plot that isn't fully explained to the audience. Nor did it need to be explained, in my opinion. I view True Detective as a piece that took us through a journey of character exploration, not the resolution of a murder mystery. The murder mystery added intrigue to the piece but it wasn't the point of the series and I'm okay with brushing over a few details in favor of focusing on the relationship between the characters.

#41 TheLeviathan

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Posted 08 May 2014 - 02:17 PM

Except we had 2 Law and Order episodes so the plot did matter. We largely dropped character development for two of them and you could make a case for closer to 3 and a half of the episodes. You guys are arguing for an ideal interpretation that ignores what doesn't fit your opinion of it. We spent large segments of the plot devoted to elements of it completely ignored in the conclusion. Frankly, I see those chunks of time as wasted character development opportunities spent on what ultimately was irrelevant.

And there was Deus ex machina...the whole house paint, green ears, magically still alive old lady who remembers who her husband had paint her house, everything gets located back conclusion was very much Deus ex machina. The unsolvable, untrackable, vague "giant with the scarred face" got solved in literally 10 minutes of screen time by that exact plot device.

(Also, I'd argue there were plenty of token elements to our two main characters and certainly to the villains of the series. The incredible performances just masked how relatively cookie cutter a Southern d-bag Marty was and "let's throw together as many cliche dirty serial killer memes we can" villain. Straight down to "follow me into my lair while I mysteriously whisper to you" chunk at the end)

#42 Turd Furgeson

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Posted 15 May 2014 - 04:21 PM

True Detective was a very entertaining, but flawed storytelling. As others have said, it started out really strong with interesting characters, great acting and layers and layers of plot. The problem is, the more layers of plot that you pile on, the more important it is to get the ending right. They failed to address many of the elements in their story that pulled me in, in the first place. Then, to have the creator of the show deny some of these elements entirely, was a slap in the face.