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Mackey: Mentioning Mauer with Puckett... Sacrilege?

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#41 kblack1011

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 06:38 PM

Killebrew
Carew
Puckett
Oliva
Mauer
Santana

Oliva's first 10 years he was consistently all-star and top 20 player. If they had micro surgery in the 70's, Oliva would have been a first ballot Hall member. Moving to first should help Mauer extend career and production should be better. But for now, Oliva slightly better and no question Puckett was better at this stage. Puckett was top 10 MVP player 7 out of his 12 years. Johann was great during his time with Minnesota, clearly better than Hrbek who just had longevity with Twins. Hrbek was a borderline all-star, but never was a good of a player as he could have been.

#42 jm3319

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 07:11 PM

You guys gotta stop going with this one. After the blown call, Mauer still ended up getting on, as well as the next two hitters. Bases loaded, nobody out, and they still didnt score. In nine playoff games he's had one extra base hit and one rbi. Legends are made in the playoffs. Thats why Puckett is a legend, and Mauer isn't.....yet. And to say Puckett wouldnt have had the opportunity to be a playoff hero if not for everything around him falling into place is preposterous.


Um, what? Please do explain. I wasn't aware Kirby scored all the teams' runs with solo homeruns to win the World Series.

The highlighted pieces of this quote are, by definition, a double-standard. Player A does his job, team fails=Player A's fault. Player B does his job, team does it's job=Player B gets all the credit. Makes no sense.

#43 cmathewson

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 07:35 PM

Comparing their best 5 seasons:

bWAR
Mauer: 7.8, 5.8, 5.7, 5.6, 5.4
Puckett: 7.7, 7.1, 5.6, 4.9, 4.3

OPS+
Mauer: 171, 144, 144, 140, 140
Puckett: 153, 142, 139, 132, 131

Pretty close in WAR, as you might expect, but clear advantage to Mauer in terms of OPS+. He also has the opportunity to add to his record over the next few years


And another good argument why they still can't figure out how to calculate WAR for catchers.
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#44 cmathewson

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 07:45 PM

Yes, it is absolutely sacrilege to mention Mauer in the same breath as Kirby. In terms of sheer talent, yes Mauer is in the conversation (although Kirby is still significantly better) but in terms of players I would pay money to go see? No. Mauer isn't in the top 500 if I'm paying money to go see them. Great stats but my god, he is to hitters what Mike Pelfrey is to pitchers or Bea Arthur is to slapstick comedians.


I finally figured out why people hate Mauer so much. Thank you. They hate Mauer because he puts up good numbers effortlessly. There's no grit, getting after it, battling his tail off.

By your criterion, it's more interesting watching nick Punto foul bunts off his face than watching Mauer double down the left field line and glide into second.
"If you'da been thinkin' you wouldn't 'a thought that.."

#45 snepp

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 08:34 PM

And another good argument why they still can't figure out how to calculate WAR for catchers.


What argument is that? I didn't see one.

#46 Guest_USAFChief_*

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 08:39 PM

I finally figured out why people hate Mauer so much. Thank you. They hate Mauer because he puts up good numbers effortlessly. There's no grit, getting after it, battling his tail off. By your criterion, it's more interesting watching nick Punto foul bunts off his face than watching Mauer double down the left field line and glide into second.

Has anyone said they hate Mauer?Some of us have said we enjoyed watching Puckett more. I don't think that means we hate Mauer.

#47 cmathewson

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 09:33 PM

Has anyone said they hate Mauer?Some of us have said we enjoyed watching Puckett more. I don't think that means we hate Mauer.


Mauer isn't in the top 500 if I'm paying money to go see them. Great stats but my god, he is to hitters what Mike Pelfrey is to pitchers or Bea Arthur is to slapstick comedians.


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#48 Bark's Lounge

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 09:34 PM

To be honest, I like Puckett and Mauer the same. They both have brought factors to Twin's baseball that made you excited to watch a game that they were playing in.

We can argue about OPS vs. being a clutch player all day long, but no conclusion will ever be made. Why would you want to argue it? We should feel privileged to have been graced by their baseball excellence.

I cannot argue with a person who tells me there once was a free-swinging MN Twin who played with the passion of the gods and who was a big part of bringing us fans two World Series Championships...

...and I cannot argue with a person who tells me that there is a current Twin who is a wunderkind at the art of hitting and getting on base and he is one of the best to ever put on a Twins uniform.

Puckett is in the HOF and I believe Mauer will get there also.

I honor the past, live in the present, with my eye on the future.

Puckett is a Minnesota Legend because of the big prize, who is to say that Joe Mauer will not be?

The future still awaits us.

Major League Baseball is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side.


#49 cmathewson

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 09:35 PM

What argument is that? I didn't see one.


The OPS+ numbers strongly favor Mauer, the WAR numbers only slightly favor Mauer. Ergo, Puckett gets more credit for his defense. Yet, when healthy, Mauer was universally regarded as one of the best defensive catchers in the game. Puck had his moments, but he played so deep, his UZR numbers would resemble Hunter's.
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#50 snepp

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 09:50 PM

The OPS+ numbers strongly favor Mauer, the WAR numbers only slightly favor Mauer. Ergo, Puckett gets more credit for his defense. Yet, when healthy, Mauer was universally regarded as one of the best defensive catchers in the game. Puck had his moments, but he played so deep, his UZR numbers would resemble Hunter's.


I think you've overlooked playing time, a vital component. You can't provide value when you're not on the field.

Puckett averaged 20% more plate appearances per season. If Mauer had those additional plate appearances his WAR goes up by roughly a win per year.

#51 notoriousgod71

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 11:52 PM

Um, what? Please do explain. I wasn't aware Kirby scored all the teams' runs with solo homeruns to win the World Series.

The highlighted pieces of this quote are, by definition, a double-standard. Player A does his job, team fails=Player A's fault. Player B does his job, team does it's job=Player B gets all the credit. Makes no sense.



If everyone else does their job it doesn't matter what Punto does.

#52 cmathewson

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 07:37 AM

Has anyone said they hate Mauer?Some of us have said we enjoyed watching Puckett more. I don't think that means we hate Mauer.


Also, some of that was directed at a group of Mauer haters led by some radio clowns, who find fault with his game without much evidence ("No HRs!" "He's lazy!" "He's not a leader like Torii or Puck!"). Their followers actually boo Mauer in Target Field. And it's not just a few, the boos can get loud at times.
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#53 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 08:11 AM

The OPS+ numbers strongly favor Mauer, the WAR numbers only slightly favor Mauer. Ergo, Puckett gets more credit for his defense. Yet, when healthy, Mauer was universally regarded as one of the best defensive catchers in the game. Puck had his moments, but he played so deep, his UZR numbers would resemble Hunter's.


The WAR numbers also heavily favor Mauer.

Puckett and Mauer have almost the same career WAR at this point... Except that Joe is 31 and Puckett retired at 36. Barring injury, Joe will surpass Kirby's WAR by a healthy margin.

#54 Steve Lein

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 09:16 AM

I don't think I'd have Hrbek near my top 5, but agree with everyone else.

Other names: Santana, Radke, Kaat, Blyleven

Scouting Report: Power: 30, Hitting: 50, Arm: 60, Defense: 40, Speed: 40. "Line drive swing and shows good contact and on-base abilities. Double's power at his peak. Strong arm from 2B or the OF, stiff hands. Not a fast runner, but above average instincts on the bases. Skinny body doesn't look the part, but can sneak up on you. ACL surgery sapped much of his athleticism." (Probably)


#55 D. Hocking

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 09:20 AM

I have changed my mind and decided it is sacrilege because that would explain this weather and the roads, and this winter in general. We are being smited from above because of Mackey's sacrilege. Thanks Phil.

Hrbek was my brother's favorite player - but he would often go off on his less than svelte physique that grew every year and throughout the season. He always felt he could have been better had he been a bit more disciplined.

Edited by D. Hocking, 21 February 2014 - 09:34 AM.


#56 Linus

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 09:46 AM

I love Kirby but the only way you can justify saying Kirby was better was the post season heroics and that had a lot to do with the team he had around him. Mauer is a better hitter and was better defensively at a more demanding position.

Mauer is already a top 5 catcher all time whereas Kirby wouldn't be anywhere close to the top of the list of centerfielders. Let's also not forget that Kirby signed the largest contract in history at that time and Mauer's wasn't so let's give the $23 million reasons argument a rest.

#57 TwinsThompson

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 10:17 AM

Puckett and Mauer are both great players, but what sets the two apart in my head is the "clutchness" factor. I have always thought of Kirby as a more clutch player. Probably because I haven't seen Mauer do anything special come playoff time. Has anyone compared the playoff stats of the two? I see some Kirby stats above, but none for Joe. Also, I don't really believe in the breaking down a playoff series by halves. It seems a bit like cherry picking to prove a point.

#58 stringer bell

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 10:19 AM

Mauer is an all-timer already and I think he'll add another batting title or two. The Twins have made the playoffs with him, but haven't won a playoff series. If and when they do, I think Mauer's resumé will be better than Kirby's.

#59 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 10:47 AM

Puckett and Mauer are both great players, but what sets the two apart in my head is the "clutchness" factor. I have always thought of Kirby as a more clutch player. Probably because I haven't seen Mauer do anything special come playoff time. Has anyone compared the playoff stats of the two? I see some Kirby stats above, but none for Joe. Also, I don't really believe in the breaking down a playoff series by halves. It seems a bit like cherry picking to prove a point.


Kirby had better playoff numbers. Of course, EXTREME small sample size needs to be mentioned here. Joe has all of 39 PAs in the playoffs. That's one road trip during the regular season.

On the flip side of that coin, Joe has been a better hitter than Kirby in "RISPy" situations, be that what it may.

Joe Mauer has a career 136 OPS+.

Kirby Puckett had a career 124 OPS+.

With RISP, Joe Mauer has a tOPS+ of 115 (OPS+ relative to his baseline performance).

With RISP Puckett had a tOPS+ of 110.

So really, people are basing all of this Puckett mystique on a handful of playoff at-bats. Sure, it was great to watch and I adore Puckett as a player. But I'm not going to buy into the idea that a handful of ABs magically make Puckett a better player when every other stat says the opposite.

If we're going to make silly evaluations based on a few ABs, we may as well start crucifying Puckett for leaving Gladden on third base in the third inning of game seven in 1991.

#60 Beemo

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 10:50 AM

Also, I don't really believe in the breaking down a playoff series by halves. It seems a bit like cherry picking to prove a point.


My reason for splitting Kirby's playoff series in half is to show that his clutchness and heroics almost all happened after the point where Joe Mauer's teams were already eliminated. He's not a playoff hero without the rest of his team winning games when he stunk. Kirby hit .167 through the first five games of the 1991 World Series. How "clutch" is he considered if the Twins had lost in five games?

That's not to say that Mauer would've had big hits had he seen a game 7 or even a game 4. He's just never had his team help him out like Puckett did.