Jump to content

Providing independent coverage of the Minnesota Twins.

The Store

Subscribe to Twins Daily Email

Recent Blogs


Photo

2014 MLB Draft Thread

  • This topic is locked This topic is locked
1286 replies to this topic

#1261 cmb0252

cmb0252

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 1,787 posts

Posted 04 June 2014 - 01:56 PM

Add Goodrum into the hopper, a second round pick that won't hack it at SS.


Crap, I mixed where him/Rosario were drafted up. Good call. Will change.

#1262 nicksaviking

nicksaviking

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 4,130 posts

Posted 04 June 2014 - 01:57 PM

The pundits and scouts and periodicals have Nola and Gordon ranked in top 6 range. This to me means both would be good picks.


I agree that the pundits clearly have more knowledge than us. I don't think that changes a whole lot though as they are giving us the assumed information we are all going off of. I don't think it's so much about lacking knowledge as it is preference of what is presented. I'm not a Nola guy and Gordon is lower on my list than a few others, but I will readily acknowledge that there is nothing wrong with the pundits rankings. Simply, they rank Nola high because he is regarded as a safe pick and Gordon is high because he plays a scarce position. For me, those factors are much, much lower on my priority list. I'm not disagreeing that those are important factors for the pundits or other fans, or other front offices. They're just as important to me, thus I wouldn't wish my team to weight those factors as heavily.

What I am trying to say is we are all ignorant (Socratic method).


No doubt about it.

#1263 tobi0040

tobi0040

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 2,067 posts

Posted 04 June 2014 - 02:13 PM

[quote name='nicksaviking']I agree that the pundits clearly have more knowledge than us. I don't think that changes a whole lot though as they are giving us the assumed information we are all going off of. I don't think it's so much about lacking knowledge as it is preference of what is presented. I'm not a Nola guy and Gordon is lower on my list than a few others, but I will readily acknowledge that there is nothing wrong with the pundits rankings. Simply, they rank Nola high because he is regarded as a safe pick and Gordon is high because he plays a scarce position. For me, those factors are much, much lower on my priority list. I'm not disagreeing that those are important factors for the pundits or other fans, or other front offices. They're just as important to me, thus I wouldn't wish my team to weight those factors as heavily.


I agree. I think Nola and Gordons rankings are helped by the factors you mentioned. I just view this through the lens that the draft is by far the best avenue for a team on a budget to acquire high end talent. The Twins, even the Twins can sign a #3 starter or an above average defensive SS that hits OK.

But when Max Scherzer hits the market this off-season we have no shot. So give me a guy that may turn into Max Scherzer in the draft even if it means the odds are lower.

#1264 twinsfanstreif

twinsfanstreif

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 179 posts

Posted 04 June 2014 - 02:21 PM

I agree that the pundits clearly have more knowledge than us. I don't think that changes a whole lot though as they are giving us the assumed information we are all going off of. I don't think it's so much about lacking knowledge as it is preference of what is presented. I'm not a Nola guy and Gordon is lower on my list than a few others, but I will readily acknowledge that there is nothing wrong with the pundits rankings. Simply, they rank Nola high because he is regarded as a safe pick and Gordon is high because he plays a scarce position. For me, those factors are much, much lower on my priority list. I'm not disagreeing that those are important factors for the pundits or other fans, or other front offices. They're just as important to me, thus I wouldn't wish my team to weight those factors as heavily.



No doubt about it.


While true that draft experts and scouts do "know more than us" I think there is an element of them over thinking stuff and fans can sometimes be more objective. Baseball's a bit different because most of these guys are complete unknown to most fans unlike in football but I can recall many times where a pick was not liked by the fans and they were right. When we picked Gutierrez in 2008 everyone hated it and he turned out to be awful, Padres fans were up in arms about Matt Bush in 2004, many Rays fans wanted Posey(Florida State fans mostly) and we're pissed about Beckham, examples like that. I'm not saying we're smarter but there are times when the obvious pick was there and teams pass for stupid reasons.

#1265 tobi0040

tobi0040

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 2,067 posts

Posted 04 June 2014 - 02:34 PM

While true that draft experts and scouts do "know more than us" I think there is an element of them over thinking stuff and fans can sometimes be more objective. Baseball's a bit different because most of these guys are complete unknown to most fans unlike in football but I can recall many times where a pick was not liked by the fans and they were right. When we picked Gutierrez in 2008 everyone hated it and he turned out to be awful, Padres fans were up in arms about Matt Bush in 2004, many Rays fans wanted Posey(Florida State fans mostly) and we're pissed about Beckham, examples like that. I'm not saying we're smarter but there are times when the obvious pick was there and teams pass for stupid reasons.



I have been wrong, one Byron Buxton (I wanted Gausman). But I have universally disliked Revere, Wimmers, relief pitchers in the 1st or 2nd round (several), etc. It is about the process. When the ceiling of a guy is a good reliever, don't bother here, that kind of thing.

#1266 kab21

kab21

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 2,565 posts

Posted 04 June 2014 - 02:41 PM

http://bleacherrepor...eveland-indians

This is a very similar draft profile to Gordon. Making an argument based on guys like Goodrum, Polanco, Michael, Plouffe, Dozier or anybody else that has been moved from the position is not related to Gordon at all. Pretty much every Twins example (and most of the MLB examples) that have been mentioned have scouting reports that mention defensive question marks. I have not found one scouting report that remotely suggests Gordon has the potential to move.

Lindor is now the #13 prospect in baseball. He's not there because he's going to be a middle of the order hitter. He's going to hit well and he's a lock to stay at SS. There should be no doubt that Gordon has significant upside.

#1267 gunnarthor

gunnarthor

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 2,994 posts

Posted 04 June 2014 - 02:45 PM

Has anyone seen any rumors about who the Twins want at 46?

#1268 tobi0040

tobi0040

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 2,067 posts

Posted 04 June 2014 - 02:49 PM

http://bleacherrepor...eveland-indians

This is a very similar draft profile to Gordon. Making an argument based on guys like Goodrum, Polanco, Michael, Plouffe, Dozier or anybody else that has been moved from the position is not related to Gordon at all. Pretty much every Twins example (and most of the MLB examples) that have been mentioned have scouting reports that mention defensive question marks. I have not found one scouting report that remotely suggests Gordon has the potential to move.

Lindor is now the #13 prospect in baseball. He's not there because he's going to be a middle of the order hitter. He's going to hit well and he's a lock to stay at SS. There should be no doubt that Gordon has significant upside.


Do you think Gordon has the same upside as Kolek?

#1269 InfraRen

InfraRen

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 300 posts

Posted 04 June 2014 - 02:51 PM

With all I've said about Gordon, I don't think that I'd take him over Kolek if he falls to 5.
Till I Collapse

#1270 Willihammer

Willihammer

    ice cream correspondent

  • Members
  • 3,259 posts
  • LocationSaint Paul

Posted 04 June 2014 - 02:56 PM

I like Gordon more than I did a few weeks ago, mainly because I found his 2014 stats (5 HRs and .6xx batting average in 28 games IIRC).His upside doesn't appear to be completely reliant on "athleticism" or "projection" (2 codewords I shy away from). Instead he seems to be more skilled, now. And I suspect that's why he shot up the boards this spring.

But his stock is still pretty reliant on projection. Compare Gordon to the college position players in his tier -

Pentecost, who had an active 36 game hitting as of last week, and gets high marks for defense at a premium position
Schwarber, who hit .358/.464/.659 and is a finalist for the Johnny Bench award,
Trea Turner, who finished the year pretty strong (and is also expected to stick at SS)

But besides all that, I just find the pitchers in the 5-10 tier a lot more interesting. Holmes, Toussaint, Freeland, & Newcomb in particular.

Edited by Willihammer, 04 June 2014 - 02:59 PM.


#1271 cmb0252

cmb0252

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 1,787 posts

Posted 04 June 2014 - 02:59 PM

Has anyone seen any rumors about who the Twins want at 46?


Haven't seen any but Ryan did say he would like to see the Twins draft more LHPing and there should be several there at 46. Jeremy mocked Cody Reed there in his last mock. If Kolek drops to 5 and the Twins draft Cody Reed at 46 they could play offensive line for the Vikes in the off season. Both big kids.

#1272 cmb0252

cmb0252

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 1,787 posts

Posted 04 June 2014 - 03:44 PM

Jon Heyman's mock draft:

http://mweb.cbssport...-expected-draft

#1273 Twins Twerp

Twins Twerp

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 797 posts

Posted 04 June 2014 - 04:29 PM

Just read a scouting report about Cody Reed that talked about teams having to work with him about weight. That scares me. Scares me enough to wait until the third. He is like a Bryant McKinney guy. Also didnt we take a big fatty a few years ago who was a power arm but is still struggling with heaviness (name escapes me now).

in second round,has anyone had us on Matt Imhof from Cal Poly? left hander who throws in mid 90s. Fringe ave. curve. Show him a changeup see what happens?

#1274 cmb0252

cmb0252

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 1,787 posts

Posted 04 June 2014 - 04:35 PM

Aaron Nola Q&A:

http://www.mlbtrader...aaron-nola.html

#1275 Twins Twerp

Twins Twerp

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 797 posts

Posted 04 June 2014 - 06:38 PM

http://www.baseballp...articleid=23785

Perfect game mock. Says cubs have turned attention to Nick Gordon...uhoh. Twins take Nola. Jackson goes 6.

#1276 notoriousgod71

notoriousgod71

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 1,062 posts

Posted 04 June 2014 - 06:44 PM

Seriously, what is the upside of Gordon? He's not going to be Tulowitzki or Arod or Hanley in his early years. I would consider it a wasted pick if we took him and a guy with ace potential was still on the board.

#1277 Twins Twerp

Twins Twerp

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 797 posts

Posted 04 June 2014 - 06:59 PM

Seriously, what is the upside of Gordon? He's not going to be Tulowitzki or Arod or Hanley in his early years. I would consider it a wasted pick if we took him and a guy with ace potential was still on the board.

Derek Jeter? Who is the Ace pitcher potential you would take over a surefire major league shortstop. Assuming the top 3 are gone of course.

#1278 mike wants wins

mike wants wins

    Would Like to be More Positive

  • Members
  • 6,990 posts

Posted 04 June 2014 - 07:22 PM

Seriously, what is the upside of Gordon? He's not going to be Tulowitzki or Arod or Hanley in his early years. I would consider it a wasted pick if we took him and a guy with ace potential was still on the board.


top five SS in all of baseball......rated in the top three to five by nearly every expert on line........the disdain for him on these boards borders on the ridiculous. Asking him to be ARod is like asking the pitchers to be the second or third best pitcher ever.......

What I just typed is probably an opinion, not a fact. I mean, I'm usually right, so you should maybe assume it is or will be a fact soon, but that's up to you. :)


#1279 Jeremy Nygaard

Jeremy Nygaard

    Twins Database Manager

  • Twins Database Managers
  • 2,163 posts

Posted 04 June 2014 - 07:45 PM

One of the "ace potential" pitchers (Kolek or Rodon) is going to drop past the Twins.

#1280 cmb0252

cmb0252

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 1,787 posts

Posted 04 June 2014 - 08:00 PM

One of the "ace potential" pitchers (Kolek or Rodon) is going to drop past the Twins.


Kiley McDaniel makes it sound like Kolek might drop like a rock. I haven't heard anything about Rodon. Is he asking too much?

#1281 maxisagod

maxisagod

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 342 posts
  • LocationThe Moon

Posted 04 June 2014 - 08:18 PM

Kiley McDaniel makes it sound like Kolek might drop like a rock. I haven't heard anything about Rodon. Is he asking too much?


I'm Guessing if it's Rodon, he would like to be paid like a top 2 pick, and the Twins won't go over slot. If's it's Kolek, he hasn't come to terms he isn't going top 3. Who have the Sox zero'd in on?

#1282 Twins Twerp

Twins Twerp

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 797 posts

Posted 04 June 2014 - 08:45 PM

I'm Guessing if it's Rodon, he would like to be paid like a top 2 pick, and the Twins won't go over slot. If's it's Kolek, he hasn't come to terms he isn't going top 3. Who have the Sox zero'd in on?

Twins CANT go over slot. You can only go 10 % over your allotted bonus pool. The twins have the tenth highest bonus so they will not be giving 5 mil to anyone. Screw borass clients anyway. That guy is the worst.

#1283 nicksaviking

nicksaviking

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 4,130 posts

Posted 04 June 2014 - 08:57 PM

Derek Jeter? Who is the Ace pitcher potential you would take over a surefire major league shortstop. Assuming the top 3 are gone of course.


I'd guess anyone the Twins pick at #5 will end up playing at the MLB level. But we can't pretend that it's a lock that Gordon's bat or defense absolutely will be strong enough to be an above average SS let alone be a starter. This is a good draft, but there's nothing here that's sure fire.

That goes for any of these guys. Everyone is seriously over exaggerating the floor of these guys, especially the "safe" players.

#1284 Kwak

Kwak

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 1,479 posts

Posted 04 June 2014 - 10:05 PM

Twins CANT go over slot. You can only go 10 % over your allotted bonus pool. The twins have the tenth highest bonus so they will not be giving 5 mil to anyone. Screw borass clients anyway. That guy is the worst.

Ps that is not attacking so dont delete it overmoderators.


Why is it avarice for a player (his agent) to use leverage to secure the most money he can--especially compared to what the owners do to: fans, cities, media broadcasters, everybody they can?

#1285 nicksaviking

nicksaviking

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 4,130 posts

Posted 04 June 2014 - 11:33 PM

Why is it avarice for a player (his agent) to use leverage to secure the most money he can--especially compared to what the owners do to: fans, cities, media broadcasters, everybody they can?


Well I think he was implying that the Twins would have a hard time getting any other higher upside picks signed if Rodon insisted on taking up a higher percentage of the money pool.

Also, by demanding over slot, the player is basically saying, "Hey, give me money that would otherwise be going to one of my new teammates." I think it goes without saying that this is a pretty selfish attitude. Though I guess I said it anyway.

#1286 B Richard

B Richard

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 523 posts

Posted 05 June 2014 - 02:13 AM

Most of these kids come from pretty humble backgrounds, not surprised it can be a pure money grab for some. This is even more obvious in the international FA market. Nothing to do but go along with the system and take the BPAMCB (Best Player Available Money Can Buy)

#1287 Brock Beauchamp

Brock Beauchamp

    Owner

  • Administrators
  • 9,179 posts

Posted 05 June 2014 - 06:26 AM

Hey everybody, I'm shutting down this thread for the time being to keep all draft-related talk in the same thread on draft day. Feel free to continue the conversations over here:

http://www.twinsdail...raft-Day-Thread