Jump to content

Providing independent coverage of the Minnesota Twins.
The same great Twins Daily coverage, now for the Vikings.

The Store

Recent Blogs


Photo

Most over-rated player in the last 30 years to retire after 2014 season

  • Please log in to reply
91 replies to this topic

#1 SpiritofVodkaDave

SpiritofVodkaDave

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 4,134 posts

Posted 12 February 2014 - 01:53 PM

Jeter.

Don't get me wrong, he is talented and a sure fire hall of famer, but I can't think of a more over-rated player in my lifetime. Defensively he was below average at best, offensively he was solid, but benefited IMO from ridiculous lineups around him.

Again, hall of famer? Yes. One of the best to play the game like some people claim. No way.

The coverage this year is going to be puke worthy.:th_alc::whacky028::whacky028::banghead:
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take"- L. Harvey Oswald

:whacky028::whacky028: :whacky028::whacky028:

#2 strumdatjag

strumdatjag

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 135 posts

Posted 12 February 2014 - 01:56 PM

I also posted to Twins forum - wanting to know if the Twins fans will boo Jeter.

#3 Willihammer

Willihammer

    ice cream correspondent

  • Members
  • 2,993 posts
  • LocationSaint Paul

Posted 12 February 2014 - 03:23 PM

An .828 career batting SS. Let that sink in for a second.

The Captain is most certainly one of the all time best SS's.

#4 SpiritofVodkaDave

SpiritofVodkaDave

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 4,134 posts

Posted 12 February 2014 - 03:39 PM

An .828 career batting SS. Let that sink in for a second.

The Captain is most certainly one of the all time best SS's.

His defense wasn't up to snuff the majority of those years, he never should have been SS the minute the Yankees got a superior on in A-Rod.

Top SS of all time IMO:
1. Honus Wagner
2. A-Rod (roids aside)
3. George Davis
4. Cal Ripken
5. Barry Larkin (Very good defender, nearly identical offensive numbers OPS+)
6. Ozzie Smith
7. Luke Appling
8. Derek Jeter
9. Lou Boudreau (Better player then Jeter, just had a shorter career)

It's amazing how Jeter gets over-rated and called one of the best to play the game by idiots, yet Barry Larkin doesn't even get on the first ballot when he was clearly a superior overall player.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take"- L. Harvey Oswald

:whacky028::whacky028: :whacky028::whacky028:

#5 James

James

    Sideburns Specialist

  • Members
  • 1,426 posts
  • LocationThe dive bars of NE Minneapolis

Posted 12 February 2014 - 03:41 PM

An .828 career batting SS. Let that sink in for a second.

The Captain is most certainly one of the all time best SS's.

He's a great hitter. No one should ever deny him that.

He is highly overrated as a defender though.

You can come up with statistics to prove anything. Forty percent of all people know that.


#6 Guest_USAFChief_*

Guest_USAFChief_*
  • Guests

Posted 12 February 2014 - 03:46 PM

Wouldn't a HOFer by definition be "one of the best to play the game?"

#7 SpiritofVodkaDave

SpiritofVodkaDave

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 4,134 posts

Posted 12 February 2014 - 04:00 PM

Wouldn't a HOFer by definition be "one of the best to play the game?"


You know what I meant. IMO there are different levels of HOFamers. Would you say that Jim Rice is in the same class as Babe Ruth?
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take"- L. Harvey Oswald

:whacky028::whacky028: :whacky028::whacky028:

#8 Hosken Bombo Disco

Hosken Bombo Disco

    jamshots, blue darters, and humpback singles

  • Members
  • 1,228 posts

Posted 12 February 2014 - 04:05 PM

Well, he was also a great New York Yankee. What do I mean by that? Not exactly sure - it's just that extra something he brought to the team beyond his offense and longetivity. His #2 will hang nicely among the other single digit Yankee numbers.

#9 thetank

thetank

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 204 posts

Posted 12 February 2014 - 04:15 PM

His defense wasn't up to snuff the majority of those years, he never should have been SS the minute the Yankees got a superior on in A-Rod.

Top SS of all time IMO:
1. Honus Wagner
2. A-Rod (roids aside)
3. George Davis
4. Cal Ripken
5. Barry Larkin (Very good defender, nearly identical offensive numbers OPS+)
6. Ozzie Smith
7. Luke Appling
8. Derek Jeter
9. Lou Boudreau (Better player then Jeter, just had a shorter career)

It's amazing how Jeter gets over-rated and called one of the best to play the game by idiots, yet Barry Larkin doesn't even get on the first ballot when he was clearly a superior overall player.

Larkin was injury proned. Nice to have someone who consistently plays everyday year and year out.

#10 chuchadoro

chuchadoro

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 112 posts
  • LocationNordeast

Posted 12 February 2014 - 04:20 PM

But he made that heads up play that one time and dove into the stands to catch a foul ball on another occasion all while playing for the Yankees; ergo, he's a great defensive player. Grit, leadership, banana sandwich; Jeter is the full package.

#11 jm3319

jm3319

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 140 posts

Posted 12 February 2014 - 07:35 PM

But he made that heads up play that one time and dove into the stands to catch a foul ball on another occasion all while playing for the Yankees; ergo, he's a great defensive player. Grit, leadership, banana sandwich; Jeter is the full package.


I know the play you're talking about it and popped into my head when thinking about overrated Jeter. He catches a foul ball, takes about 6 more full strides, then dives into the stands. And of course it made every highlight reel ever, when he could have caught it and just slowed down and stopped. Pretty much sums up my annoyance with Jeter. Good player, just too much media hype for me to stand him.

#12 twinsfan34

twinsfan34

    Paul DeVos

  • Members
  • 683 posts

Posted 12 February 2014 - 07:38 PM

The way I see Jeter is a heady player who played to the best of his abilities. I never once thought, he could be better than he is or he could have given more effort or been smarter in this situation or that situation.

That I will give him. I will give him the fact he's a tough out too. "Clutch" is out there as far as if that's real (ask the SABR community). I think the fact he was in as many post seasons and arguably the best stretch of wins (be interesting to check career Winning % of players) as about any MLB player.

Overrated as a SS, defensively, absolutely yes. I feel he was likely average to below average defender his whole career.

But offensively...I honestly don't have a grasp of how good Honus Wagner was other than some metrics that help put some context to his stats, which are great. OPS+ to extra base hits to batting average and stolen bases. And it seems he was quite the defender. Add to that, players of his generation, say he was the best. I'm a big baseball card collector, so part of the 'mystique' of Honus Wager is the fact his card was/is the most treasured/talked/valuable card of all time.

I liked Ozzie Smith and Cal Ripken. Ozzie was fun to watch. I never quite felt he was a great hitter though. Cal Ripken, just the hard worker, better offensively than Smith, but not as fun to watch defensively. I went to about 5-8 baseball games when he played at the Dome. Was definitely a game changer.

Barry Larkin, now he was similar to Jeter (to me) offensively. A tough out, fouling off pitches to contact when contact needed to be made, but also a great defender.

I honestly can't put A-Rod in there...maybe first 3 years of his career are steroid free. Not long enough for me to be considered for a top SS in the game. A-Rod also an overrated defender at SS. Even so, he only played SS until he was 27 (8 seasons - same as Ernie Banks). Banks by the way, hit 40+ HR 5x in those 8 seasons at short (steroid free), 2x MVP, and a better defender than BOTH Jeter and A-Rod.

[COLOR=#0000ff]Robin Yount[/COLOR] had 9 seasons at SS too...including a MVP and a GG.

[COLOR=#0000ff]Luis Aparicio[/COLOR] has to be considered...a HOFer, 9 GG's, first 9 seasons in the bigs he led the league in SB.

[COLOR=#0000ff]Bert Campaneris[/COLOR]??

Spirit of Dave...only nit-picking as you have the only list here - but I don't know how [COLOR=#0000ff]Ernie Banks[/COLOR] doesn't make your top 9 at SS...??? If A-Rod had the same # of seasons - Banks was clearly the superior player during their tenures at SS.


1. Honus Wagner
2. Cal Ripken, Jr.
3. Ernie Banks
4. Derek Jeter
5. Barry Larkin
6. Ozzie Smith
7. Robin Young
8. Luis Aparicio

Again, for me, A-Rod had at most 3 seasons steroid free and only 8 seasons total at the position. So put an (*) there for him.

#13 Seth Stohs

Seth Stohs

    Owner

  • Administrators
  • 7,496 posts

Posted 12 February 2014 - 07:47 PM

At the risk of sounding condescending, so I apologize in advance, but thinking any inner-circle, first ballot Hall of Famer is overrated is a little silly.

Jeter has been one of the best, he has the numbers, he has the longevity, he's been a leader on winning teams, he's the total package.

#14 Seth Stohs

Seth Stohs

    Owner

  • Administrators
  • 7,496 posts

Posted 12 February 2014 - 07:50 PM

[COLOR=#333333]Spirit of Dave...only nit-picking as you have the only list here - but I don't know how [/COLOR][COLOR=#0000ff]Ernie Banks[/COLOR][COLOR=#333333] doesn't make your top 9 at SS...??? If A-Rod had the same # of seasons - Banks was clearly the superior player during their tenures at SS. [/COLOR]


[COLOR=#333333]1. Honus Wagner[/COLOR]
[COLOR=#333333]2. Cal Ripken, Jr.[/COLOR]
[COLOR=#333333]3. Ernie Banks[/COLOR]
[COLOR=#333333]4. Derek Jeter[/COLOR]
[COLOR=#333333]5. Barry Larkin[/COLOR]
[COLOR=#333333]6. Ozzie Smith[/COLOR]
[COLOR=#333333]7. Robin Young[/COLOR]
[COLOR=#333333]8. Luis Aparicio[/COLOR]


Banks played more games in his career at 1B. I agree. Wagner has crazy numbers, but he isn't Jeter. I think Ripken could be better than Jeter. I like Larkin too. But, Jeter's elite...

#15 twinsfan34

twinsfan34

    Paul DeVos

  • Members
  • 683 posts

Posted 12 February 2014 - 07:51 PM

The way I see Jeter is a heady player who played to the best of his abilities. I never once thought, he could be better than he is or he could have given more effort or been smarter in this situation or that situation.

That I will give him. I will give him the fact he's a tough out too. "Clutch" is out there as far as if that's real (ask the SABR community). I think the fact he was in as many post seasons and arguably the best stretch of wins (be interesting to check career Winning % of players) as about any MLB player.

Overrated as a SS, defensively, absolutely yes. I feel he was likely average to below average defender his whole career.

But offensively...I honestly don't have a grasp of how good Honus Wagner was other than some metrics that help put some context to his stats, which are great. OPS+ to extra base hits to batting average and stolen bases. And it seems he was quite the defender. Add to that, players of his generation, say he was the best. I'm a big baseball card collector, so part of the 'mystique' of Honus Wager is the fact his card was/is the most treasured/talked/valuable card of all time.

That said, I'd have to say Jeter is about as good offensively as anyone is at the position.

I liked Ozzie Smith and Cal Ripken. Ozzie was fun to watch. I never quite felt he was a great hitter though. Cal Ripken, just the hard worker, better offensively than Smith, but not as fun to watch defensively. I went to about 5-8 baseball games when he played at the Dome. Was definitely a game changer.

Barry Larkin, now he was similar to Jeter (to me) offensively. A tough out, fouling off pitches to contact when contact needed to be made, but also a great defender.

I honestly can't put A-Rod in there...maybe first 3 years of his career are steroid free. Not long enough for me to be considered for a top SS in the game. A-Rod also an overrated defender at SS. Even so, he only played SS until he was 27 (8 seasons - same as Ernie Banks). Banks by the way, hit 40+ HR 5x in those 8 seasons at short (steroid free), 2x MVP, and a better defender than BOTH Jeter and A-Rod.

[COLOR=#0000ff]Robin Yount[/COLOR] had 9 seasons at SS too...including a MVP and a GG.

[COLOR=#0000ff]Luis Aparicio[/COLOR] has to be considered...a HOFer, 9 GG's, first 9 seasons in the bigs he led the league in SB.

[COLOR=#0000ff]Bert Campaneris[/COLOR]??

Spirit of Dave...only nit-picking as you have the only list here - but I don't know how [COLOR=#0000ff]Ernie Banks[/COLOR] doesn't make your top 9 at SS...??? If A-Rod had the same # of seasons - Banks was clearly the superior player during their tenures at SS.


1. Honus Wagner
2. Cal Ripken, Jr.
3. Ernie Banks
4. Derek Jeter
5. Barry Larkin
6. Ozzie Smith
7. Robin Young
8. Luis Aparicio

Again, for me, A-Rod had at most 3 seasons steroid free and only 8 seasons total at the position. So put an (*) there for him.

#16 twinsfan34

twinsfan34

    Paul DeVos

  • Members
  • 683 posts

Posted 12 February 2014 - 07:53 PM

Banks played more games in his career at 1B. I agree. Wagner has crazy numbers, but he isn't Jeter. I think Ripken could be better than Jeter. I like Larkin too. But, Jeter's elite...


Seth, you care to venture a list?

If I'm reading it right...

1. Ripken
2. Jeter
3. Wagner


Banks > A-Rod

#17 notoriousgod71

notoriousgod71

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 1,015 posts

Posted 12 February 2014 - 08:10 PM

But he made that heads up play that one time and dove into the stands to catch a foul ball on another occasion all while playing for the Yankees; ergo, he's a great defensive player. Grit, leadership, banana sandwich; Jeter is the full package.


The thing that absolutely bothers me about the "Jeter flip" is that it is considered one of the greatest plays of all time. Does anyone remember THAT VERY SEASON when Hocking made an even better play? It was at Fenway and Craig Grebeck hit a foul pop. Mientkiewicz darted back and pop slid for the catch and then bounced his throw to Hocking (who had raced over from his position at shortstop). Hocking turned and fired a strike to AJ to nail Varitek.

Of course you can't find a single clip of that play anywhere but for my money's worth it was far more impressive than Jeter's.

The fair ball catch by Jeter where he ran into the stands five steps later is the same thing.

#18 TheLeviathan

TheLeviathan

    Twins News Team

  • Twins News Team
  • 5,095 posts

Posted 12 February 2014 - 09:04 PM

Isn't it possible Jeter is both an elite player and wildly overrated? He's been an elite, historic talent but he has also been exceptionally overblown. (Especially in his notable deficiency - fielding)

#19 Seth Stohs

Seth Stohs

    Owner

  • Administrators
  • 7,496 posts

Posted 12 February 2014 - 09:20 PM

Isn't it possible Jeter is both an elite player and wildly overrated? He's been an elite, historic talent but he has also been exceptionally overblown. (Especially in his notable deficiency - fielding)

\\

I honestly think that, like Brett Favre, like Duke Basketball, like Tim Tebow, Jeter has been a media favorite, and i think that a lot of people don't like that. That's not his fault. It's not his job to tell them not to love him. Is he perfect? No. Is everything magnified? Yes. But again, Hall of Famer, should be first ballot... very hard to over rate that type of player.

#20 Bark's Lounge

Bark's Lounge

    Today's Fred Rogers Mean Mean Pride

  • Members
  • 1,712 posts

Posted 12 February 2014 - 09:25 PM

It's amazing how Jeter gets over-rated and called one of the best to play the game by idiots


I do not find it amazing as those idiots are pretty much correct.

Sure, Jeter has been overated as a defender, but at his peak he was very capable.

Jeter is a historical offensive powerhouse at his position. I believe Jeter to be more consistent and a bit better offensively than Ripken, Jr. and Ripken is a sign post in the modern history of baseball shortstops.

I have spent the last 30 years of my life watching baseball. I may be no guru, but it is insulting to me to strip away the greatness that Jeter has cemented in the game of baseball.

Since the Mid-Nineties, To me, he is the face of Major League Baseball.

Nuff Said...

There he goes. One of God's own prototypes. Some kind of high powered mutant never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live, and too rare to die.


#21 Willihammer

Willihammer

    ice cream correspondent

  • Members
  • 2,993 posts
  • LocationSaint Paul

Posted 12 February 2014 - 09:26 PM

I'll concede he was overrated with the glove, didn't deserve all his GG awards (who does, ever?) But, depending on the stat you want to look at, his defense cost him something like -10 WARs compared to almost +100 WARs with the bat. Dwarfed.

#22 Guest_USAFChief_*

Guest_USAFChief_*
  • Guests

Posted 12 February 2014 - 10:04 PM

I know the play you're talking about it and popped into my head when thinking about overrated Jeter. He catches a foul ball, takes about 6 more full strides, then dives into the stands. And of course it made every highlight reel ever, when he could have caught it and just slowed down and stopped. Pretty much sums up my annoyance with Jeter. Good player, just too much media hype for me to stand him.

You'll forgive me if I'm skeptical that a player, any player, could have stopped himself but chose to dive headfirst into cement and metal on purpose for the sake of getting on highlight reals.

#23 Guest_USAFChief_*

Guest_USAFChief_*
  • Guests

Posted 12 February 2014 - 10:06 PM

I do not find it amazing as those idiots are pretty much correct.

Sure, Jeter has been overated as a defender, but at his peak he was very capable.

Jeter is a historical offensive powerhouse at his position. I believe Jeter to be more consistent and a bit better offensively than Ripken, Jr. and Ripken is a sign post in the modern history of baseball shortstops.

I have spent the last 30 years of my life watching baseball. I may be no guru, but it is insulting to me to strip away the greatness that Jeter has cemented in the game of baseball.

Since the Mid-Nineties, To me, he is the face of Major League Baseball.

Nuff Said...

I'll go so far as to say that for a long time he was a very good defensive shortstop, and I don't give a rat's behind what UZR says.

#24 one_eyed_jack

one_eyed_jack

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 590 posts

Posted 12 February 2014 - 10:19 PM

I just can't buy into Jeter being overrated. Overexposed? There's an argument for that. It happens with all great Yankees. I may get tired of hearing about it, but I'm not going to deny his greatness.

Now here's what will be interesting to me: a non-trivial minority of hall of fame voters refused to vote for Craig Biggio due to PED suspicions. Their argument was one of guilt by association - Biggio had teammates who were known users, so he may have been using too. But isn't that just as true of Derek Jeter, especially as we learn more about A-Rod? Will these same voters leave Jeter off their ballots?

#25 TheLeviathan

TheLeviathan

    Twins News Team

  • Twins News Team
  • 5,095 posts

Posted 12 February 2014 - 10:37 PM

Jeter has been a media favorite, and i think that a lot of people don't like that.


Isn't that largely the vehicle for a player being overrated?

My bone with Jeter has always been that the media fawns over him and created an image of a player that's better than he really is. As a contrast, Craig Biggio was a similar player (and MUCH better defensive player) and doesn't get even a fraction of the hype/love as Jeter did throughout his career.

#26 Seth Stohs

Seth Stohs

    Owner

  • Administrators
  • 7,496 posts

Posted 12 February 2014 - 10:44 PM

Isn't that largely the vehicle for a player being overrated?

My bone with Jeter has always been that the media fawns over him and created an image of a player that's better than he really is. As a contrast, Craig Biggio was a similar player (and MUCH better defensive player) and doesn't get even a fraction of the hype/love as Jeter did throughout his career.


As one_eyed_jack says above... "Overexposed" but not overrated.

#27 Bark's Lounge

Bark's Lounge

    Today's Fred Rogers Mean Mean Pride

  • Members
  • 1,712 posts

Posted 12 February 2014 - 10:55 PM

Baseball is weird sometimes. I believe Biggio should have been HOF on the first ballot. It looks like it will take 3 or 4 tries.

Derek Jeter is better than Craig Biggio. If you do not believe that to be correct, you have never watched them play the game.

Jeter will get 95% on his first ballot HOF vote... guaranteed.

There he goes. One of God's own prototypes. Some kind of high powered mutant never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live, and too rare to die.


#28 TheLeviathan

TheLeviathan

    Twins News Team

  • Twins News Team
  • 5,095 posts

Posted 12 February 2014 - 11:10 PM

As one_eyed_jack says above... "Overexposed" but not overrated.


Distinction without a difference to me. The overexposure lead him to be overrated.

I really don't care for the suggestion that seeing them play leaves no doubt. I saw Jeter and Biggio both play. They were extremely similar players, just one better with the bat and one significantly better with the glove. The stats back that up.

Their quality of play isn't the difference. Their market and supporting talent were.

#29 tobi0040

tobi0040

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 1,355 posts

Posted 13 February 2014 - 08:38 AM

Isn't that largely the vehicle for a player being overrated?

My bone with Jeter has always been that the media fawns over him and created an image of a player that's better than he really is. As a contrast, Craig Biggio was a similar player (and MUCH better defensive player) and doesn't get even a fraction of the hype/love as Jeter did throughout his career.


I too believe Jeter is both a first ballot HOF and overrated. It sounds odd, but allow me to explain.

A guy that hits .312, 3,200 hits, .820 OPS as a SS, and has five rings is a first ballot HOF.

But the fact that he played in NY and alongside up to 10 guys that may end up in the hall of fame (which helped his ring count), he will get more credit at the end of the day. I am guessing he gets in with over 95% of the votes on his first try (which Bark's lounge estimated). Paul Molitor has almost identical stats accross the board, average, hits, HR, games, OPS, etc. Molitor has an additional 156 SB. Molitor achieved only 85% of the vote on his first ballot.

I think Jeter will be viewed favorably or in the same category as Wagner and Banks and he was not on their level. If Tulo plays another 10 seasons, he will have much better stats on a per season basis.

#30 nicksaviking

nicksaviking

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 3,714 posts

Posted 13 February 2014 - 09:07 AM

I hate the Yankees, and I've disliked Jeter simply by association. So I'm pretty annoyed that this taunt of a thread makes me a Jeter apolgist. His defense was overrated but only in terms of Gold Glove kind of voting where the award really goes to the best SS who can hit. Everyone knew he was never the best defensive SS, it's not like the media gave him a pass on that just the rubes who vote for the biggest name.

But defense? Who gives a crap about defense anymore especially in this day where most teams strive to strike out the batter as opposed to letting them put the ball in play?

Offensively he was one of the top 3 SS ever. He had great players around him, but seeing as he was batting in front of them, providing a career .388 OBP and yearly double digit power from the top of the lineup, I'd be more inclined to say HE made the sluggers behind him look better.